Please help me to see

[origins44]

thank you for the new point of view and questions. I will continue to observe and write back. Oh, and yes, you were correct, I was referring to the law of attraction :)

In deep gratitude,
Jessica

[origins44]

Hello, Steve here is what I have noticed so far...

origins44 wrote:The ”past time” is a memory stored in the mind and I cannot find a direct connection other than sensations in the body when a thought arises of the past. The experience would not look like anything, sound like anything, or taste like anything. There would be only feeling. “Memory” is thought, is a story.

So which is it? :) Do you ever have direct experience of a memory or a mind? Or is it thought content, story, that says so?

Always a mind because without the brain to generate thoughts there would be no stories to tell of the past. It is a story.

Steve wrote:The idea that you can focus hard to bring something to you...Ask yourself whether any of that makes any sense in the light of direct experience.
origins44 wrote:It does make sense when I think about the feeling of happiness in this moment bringing more in the future because like attracts like, right?

Does like attract like? You tell me! :) It makes sense when you think about it, sure. But can you find any real evidence of it in direct experience, outside of a thought story? What would that evidence look like?

Yes it does make sense but it is also just a story, it is all just thought. I looked and there is nothing in direct experience that tells me that like attracts like.

Steve wrote:Could experience ever confirm or deny that what's happening now has any connection to a thought about having focused hard in the past?
origins44 wrote:Yes, because if I saw a certain situation happening and felt the feelings of it actually happening now it would/could happen.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Can you clarify?

Sorry about that one. Okay, basically I was saying that if I felt a situation after thinking about it I could bring it into experience…but when I look now that is a story, the story of the law of attraction. Why do “I” still believe this story if there is no direct experience and does that mean that the law of attraction does not exist?

1) How do you know that the something experienced at B is the same something focused on at A? Does your direct experience at B actually include the A something? Or does it just include a thought containing a story about the A something?

It only contains a thought connecting the events of A and B. There is no direct experience that connects only the thoughts that create a story in the mind.

2) How do you know there's any relationship between A and B? Isn't that connection a thought story that you notice only after A and B are both past?

There is only a relationship when a thought arises about the events. Yes, it is only a thought story…I was going to argue and say “no, you could realize that A has influenced B while B is still happening” but then realized that it was not true; some part of B had to have already happened and therefore be in the past in order for the mind to tell a story.

Then I'm asking you to change gears a bit. You noticed earlier that thoughts just come and go, totally
outside your control. Whenever you notice a specific thought, make a note of its content. This can be just a mental note, or you can actually jot it down in writing if you're able. Look for a few specific characteristics of thought content:

1) The percentage of thoughts that do include a personal reference or the separate self concept (1).

Oh my goodness, YES! 95% of the thoughts that I have actively observed has been I," "me," "my," "mine," or other language pointing to a separate self!! “I need to do this” “what would make me happy?” “I am offended” “I am happy” “I love him” me, me, me….

2) The percentage of thoughts that refer to the past (2a), that refer to the future (2b), and that label the present (2c).

The percentage of thoughts that refer to the past are roughly 40% most of my thoughts (50%) are in the future…”what do I need to do?” “what needs to be done?” “what can I eliminate to get everything done?” “how much time do I need/have?” the mind RACES with these thoughts! The other 10% is labeling what is going on in the moment “that is a pretty sunrise”, “this person is walking slow.” Etc.

I am still observing and will let you know what else comes up.

Thank you for the time you are taking to help me with this.

In deep gratitude,
Jessica

[Steve]

Very nice, Jessica! You're investigating and seeing for yourself.

...when I look now that is a story, the story of the law of attraction. Why do “I” still believe this story if there is no direct experience and does that mean that the law of attraction does not exist?

Well, you're starting to see that we believe all sorts of stories that simply can't be verified by our experience. For example, the story that we have direct access to a fixed past via memory. And the one about having control over our thoughts and actions. The list is endless.

Take a look at the thought "I believe X." (It doesn't matter what X is. Any belief will do for this exercise.) Contemplate the belief for a few moments. Get a feel for what it's like to have that as a belief.

Then look closely at what is actually experienced. Notice whether it breaks down into parts. What thoughts reinforce the feeling of having a belief? What sensations reinforce the feeling of having a belief? What can you say about the concept of "belief" after looking deeply into it?

There is only a relationship when a thought arises about the events. Yes, it is only a thought story…I was going to argue and say “no, you could realize that A has influenced B while B is still happening” but then realized that it was not true; some part of B had to have already happened and therefore be in the past in order for the mind to tell a story.

Great to notice this!

The percentage of thoughts that refer to the past are roughly 40% most of my thoughts (50%) are in the future…”what do I need to do?” “what needs to be done?” “what can I eliminate to get everything done?” “how much time do I need/have?” the mind RACES with these thoughts! The other 10% is labeling what is going on in the moment “that is a pretty sunrise”, “this person is walking slow.” Etc.

So interesting to notice this! By this estimate, at least 90% of thoughts are fiction just because they're about the past or the future, when actually there's no experience outside of now. And we begin to suspect that there are other factors that might push that closer to 100%, don't we?

Oh my goodness, YES! 95% of the thoughts that I have actively observed has been I," "me," "my," "mine," or other language pointing to a separate self!! “I need to do this” “what would make me happy?” “I am offended” “I am happy” “I love him” me, me, me….

Yes, yes, yes! Isn't it amazing to notice this?

Now you see why the idea of being a separate self, a "you," can seem to be so tenacious. Thoughts are retelling the story of "you" all day long, every day.

Right THERE is the opening. Right THERE is the gateless gate. The moment you notice the storytelling and see that the thought "I" simply arises (no control) and that the thought "I" can't do or be anything (because it's just a thought), you see that you are free and always have been.

Look right now! Just like looking in the fridge. Is there really a "you"?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

thank you for the response, Steve! here is the latest...

Take a look at the thought "I believe X." (It doesn't matter what X is. Any belief will do for this exercise.) Contemplate the belief for a few moments. Get a feel for what it's like to have that as a belief.

Then look closely at what is actually experienced. Notice whether it breaks down into parts. What thoughts reinforce the feeling of having a belief?

Okay for this I used the thought “I believe if I focus on something it will come into my experience.” It feels logical to have this belief but, there is also doubt with this belief. To elaborate on the doubt; it says “well, really? Does it really happen? If that were the case we would be millionaires and have perfect health…blah, blah, blah” so, it is not really a solid belief because there is another belief behind it, like layers. A belief in another belief that is linked to another belief whose root is…..? Rabbit holing a little here, you get the point.
The thoughts that reinforce the feeling of belief? Well, I don’t have a feeling of belief just thoughts about it (first thing I notice). The thoughts are: “I made this reality, I focused on having a job where my time was flexible and now I have it”, “I focused on living in this state and now I am here.” Then I wonder if this has all happened because it was next, the decision had already been made and life just happened. But then I wonder “if everything just happens won’t we all just become lazy bums since we don’t make any decisions anyway, they are already made?” and “then that means that there is no control over what happens, no influence at all?” chasing this one in circles…. Deep breath, what is actually experienced now is thoughts arising. It is all thought.

What sensations reinforce the feeling of having a belief?

There may be a lightness in the stomach area (if it is a happy belief) or a pulling down in the same area (if it is a sad belief) either way I see that the body is reacting to thoughts that arise about a particular belief. So there is thought arising, body sensing, and more labeling.

What can you say about the concept of "belief" after looking deeply into it?

That it is a thought story that isn’t even really a belief as there is doubt as well…so, not really real. Just now I rationalized “well, you can believe that the sun is going to rise tomorrow and THAT you would know would happen for sure…unless it didn’t.” it seems as nothing is sure, then. Again, that last sentence is just a label, a story.

Look right now! Just like looking in the fridge. Is there really a "you"?

No, no me, you, or I. Just a story. Thoughts and beliefs. It doesn’t feel quite there yet, more intellectual….

In deep gratitude,
Jessica

[Steve]

Nice report, Jessica!

chasing this one in circles…. Deep breath, what is actually experienced now is thoughts arising. It is all thought.

Yes, all of that is thought. You were thinking about what that particular belief means to you and about whether it's true or false. I'm asking you to focus on something different and more subtle: What is the actual experience of holding a belief, any belief?

Maybe it will help to use a more neutral belief. Take your other example: "The sun will rise tomorrow."

Get a feel for what it's like to believe that, then take a closer look. You'll notice the thought "The sun will rise tomorrow," of course. What else do you notice that makes it into a belief rather than just a passing thought? What makes that distinction? Other thoughts? A deep feeling of conviction? Thoughts about that feeling?

Ignore any thoughts about whether the sun will or won't rise in the morning. Just notice the factors that make you feel that's a belief.

it seems as nothing is sure

This is the most wonderful feeling to have. Make friends with it! After all, we're looking into the truth of your most closely held beliefs. It's bound to feel this way. I recommend reading the Start Here post on Ilona's blog, especially Step 7, Falling.

No, no me, you, or I. Just a story. Thoughts and beliefs. It doesn’t feel quite there yet, more intellectual….

Okay, look directly at the feeling that it's not quite there, that it's more intellectual. Is it true? Or is it just another ripple going by, like any thought content? Just look. Is there a "you"?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Thank you, Steve! Thank you so much for your patience with this. I am going to read the start here post and sit with it tonight. I will report back tomorrow :) I hope you enjoyed the holiday weekend.

in deep gratitude,
Jessica

[origins44]

hello, Steve

Here is the the latest in looking.

Get a feel for what it's like to believe that, then take a closer look. You'll notice the thought "The sun will rise tomorrow," of course. What else do you notice that makes it into a belief rather than just a passing thought? What makes that distinction? Other thoughts? A deep feeling of conviction? Thoughts about that feeling?

What makes the distinction is the feeling. I get strong “sense” that it is right, a feeling in my stomach and chest that the closest I can find to describe it is grounded. I feel a knowing. Yes, there are other thoughts of course, thoughts such as “it has always risen every day” and “unless the earth stops spinning it will always rise.”

I recommend reading the Start Here post on Ilona's blog, especially Step 7, Falling.

I did go read this…several times. The sticking points where observed on step one because I do not feel any fear of there being no “I” and so there is no fear to pull close and look behind. The feelings that I noticed were more frustration and I noticed that it was because there are still expectations that are being held, to include; I expected that everything would be seen through by now, it shouldn’t be taking so long, things would feel better if I had made it through “the gateless gate” and the lovely thought; we’ll never see this….followed by more feelings of frustration.
When I read the part about falling the mention of “lost beliefs” rings true. It feels as if all these beliefs that I have had for a very long time (some very foundational ones!) are not so solid and it is unnerving because the mind tries to make sense of it and find new beliefs etc. As suggested I am going to bring them close and really look.

Okay, look directly at the feeling that it's not quite there, that it's more intellectual. Is it true? Or is it just another ripple going by, like any thought content? Just look. Is there a "you"?

It is not true!! It is just another label! Another bit of thought that was not even noticed. There is no “you” just stories in the mind and sensations in the body.

[origins44]

Hello, Steve
Today I spent observing. Observing what was/is happening now, what thoughts were arising and sensations in the body. I noticed that the body moved on it's own without "me" to tell it what to do (i.e. walking, writing). Thoughts labeled and told stories but instead of identifying with them there was more watching, even watching of the identification. Spent time looking at everything/one around me. Every time the thought "this is still more intellectual" or "you're just getting" arose instead of fighting or pushing or thinking things were just left. I just let the contracting feeling in the body stay there and watched the thought until both disapated. I would sometimes ask "is it true?" and then realize, no it is another story. When watching and listening what was happening it felt like there was space? Using the best words to describe this. Spent time looking for "me" and "I" and still could not find it. When a situation arose at work where offense could have easily be taken I asked "well, who is offended?" and there was no response.

in deep gratitude,
Jessica

[Steve]

Hi, Jessica. Thank you for both reports! Beautiful!

What makes the distinction is the feeling. I get strong “sense” that it is right, a feeling in my stomach and chest that the closest I can find to describe it is grounded. I feel a knowing. Yes, there are other thoughts of course, thoughts such as “it has always risen every day” and “unless the earth stops spinning it will always rise.”

Good to notice, isn't it? So what do you see now about beliefs in general? Is a strongly held belief any more likely to be true than any other thought?

The feelings that I noticed were more frustration and I noticed that it was because there are still expectations that are being held, to include; I expected that everything would be seen through by now, it shouldn’t be taking so long, things would feel better if I had made it through “the gateless gate” and the lovely thought; we’ll never see this….followed by more feelings of frustration.

It's nice to see these expectations exposed. I think you realize there's no timetable!

So what is this "I" that has or hasn't made it through the gate? What do you see about that now?

When I read the part about falling the mention of “lost beliefs” rings true. It feels as if all these beliefs that I have had for a very long time (some very foundational ones!) are not so solid and it is unnerving because the mind tries to make sense of it and find new beliefs etc. As suggested I am going to bring them close and really look.

Excellent. I see you're continuing. Keep it up!

It is not true!! It is just another label! Another bit of thought that was not even noticed. There is no “you” just stories in the mind and sensations in the body.

Very nicely seen!

Thoughts labeled and told stories but instead of identifying with them there was more watching, even watching of the identification.

Yes, that is exactly it. When you realize you're watching the identification, you see unmistakably that there's no one to be caught in it.

When watching and listening what was happening it felt like there was space? Using the best words to describe this. Spent time looking for "me" and "I" and still could not find it. When a situation arose at work where offense could have easily be taken I asked "well, who is offended?" and there was no response.

Beautiful! Whenever it occurs to you, simply return to this level of noticing, to this focus of attention. Watch how life unfolds from that point. Get used to it. Let me know how it continues to flow.

I'll have more questions in a day or two. For now, just enjoy it and let me know what you see. Very well done!

With Love,
Steve

[Steve]

Hi, Jessica. Let me know what you've been noticing the last few days.

And let's return to some questions we skipped over earlier. You looked deeply into the experience of hearing (back on page one) and found no hearer separate from the experience of hearing. (You may want to have another look at that part of the dialogue.)

Now sit quietly and observe the other senses.

Is there a "toucher" separate from the experience of touching?

Is there a "smeller" separate from the experience of smelling?

Is there a "taster" separate from the experience of tasting?

Is there a "seer" separate from the experience of seeing?

Along with these investigations, see whether you can find any direct experience of a body and sense organs. For example, do you hear, see, feel, smell or taste any ears when you notice hearing happening?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Thank you for your response, Steve! There is much to report but I am limited on time. Will post tomorrow with more details :)

in deep gratitude,
Jessica

[origins44]

Hello, Steve
The past few days have been good. I ended up just relaxing about the whole process and going with the flow.

For now, just enjoy it and let me know what you see.

On Saturday was when I really began to see the flow of things, of life. I was running errands and normally would be stressed thinking about what I had to do next etc. this time I noticed that there was a flow to everything and everyone one and instead of pushing and trying to control I just experienced and saw life unfolding. Noticing the thoughts that arose in the mind, old stories that have been told over and over, these things were never looked at, questioned, investigated or allowed to be.

You looked deeply into the experience of hearing (back on page one) and found no hearer separate from the experience of hearing. (You may want to have another look at that part of the dialogue.)

It is funny you suggest this, it is actually what I ended up doing at the end of last week and into the weekend. I was looking at direct experience.I noticed that there was/is no "I" walking, "I" does not have to think about walking in order for it to happen, walking just happens. A similar event happened when I was commuting on home on Friday, the desire to listen to music was there and after the ear buds ended up in my ears realized that "I" did not put them there, it just happened. When driving I noticed that there was no "I" driving the car but driving was certainly happening.
More and more the past few days the present moment is where awareness is hanging out more often. Not to say that difficult emotions were not still arising and feelings to accompany them, it was just different. Questioning of old thoughts and habits is happening, seeing things differently.

Is there a "toucher" separate from the experience of touching?

No, there is not. I was petting my cat for this one and could not find anything that is touching. It is a sense just happening.

Is there a "smeller" separate from the experience of smelling?

same answer with this question. I could not find "smeller", things just smell.

Is there a "taster" separate from the experience of tasting?

No, though this one was a bit more difficult because of all of the thoughts that come up while eating food. The taste of toothpaste in the mouth right now but only tasting is there when looking right at it. No taster.

Is there a "seer" separate from the experience of seeing?

This one is the direct experience that I looked at the most over the past few days and no, there was no seer that was found with this one.

Along with these investigations, see whether you can find any direct experience of a body and sense organs. For example, do you hear, see, feel, smell or taste any ears when you notice hearing happening?

Ha ha! This question is great! A fun one to look at. So, I was having the experience of having the back scratched and did not taste the back or the sensation of touch. I don't taste what I am seeing on the screen as I type.

Thank you for your patience Steve

In deep gratitude,
Jessica

[Steve]

Hi, Jessica. What a delightful report! Lovely!

Thank you for your patience Steve

Thank you for your responsiveness. It's a great pleasure to walk this path with you.

"I" does not have to think about walking in order for it to happen, walking just happens...When driving I noticed that there was no "I" driving the car but driving was certainly happening.

Beautiful! Isn't this fun?

More and more the past few days the present moment is where awareness is hanging out more often. Not to say that difficult emotions were not still arising and feelings to accompany them, it was just different. Questioning of old thoughts and habits is happening, seeing things differently.

Yes. Very nice!

Ha ha! This question is great! A fun one to look at. So, I was having the experience of having the back scratched and did not taste the back or the sensation of touch. I don't taste what I am seeing on the screen as I type.

Yes. Isn't it freeing to see this? All of experiencing starts to feel lighter.

You've investigated the sensing experiences and found there's no one there to be an experiencer. Now let's circle back and take a closer look at the thinking experience. Earlier you wrote:

I cannot decide what to think or stop and start thoughts at will....I can't decide what the next thought I think will be or predict it either. Thoughts are just there, coming and going.

Exactly! So is there a thinker? Are "you" the thinker of thoughts?

Something else to notice about thinking is that we sometimes tend to picture it as taking place inside a sort of container called "mind." We may also visualize intentions, preferences, desires, aversions -- and a whole host of others -- to be inside the "mind" container. But is this actually our experience?

For example, you wrote:

Noticing the thoughts that arose in the mind...

Look closely. Do you directly experience a container for thoughts? Are there any borders or edges around thoughts?

Do you directly experience anything like a "mind"? Do you touch, see, hear, smell, taste it?

Having looked, what can you now say about the word "mind"? What does it refer to?

With Love,
Steve

[origins44]

Thank you for your response, Steve!
Here is what I found…

Look closely. Do you directly experience a container for thoughts? Are there any borders or edges around thoughts?

When I look there is no direct experience of a container for thoughts. I always imagined it in my head, even at times when there is a really intense thought there are sensations felt in the head but is that really a container? There are no borders or edges to the thoughts themselves, they just materialize and go.

Do you directly experience anything like a "mind"? Do you touch, see, hear, smell, taste it?

The only thing that I see as a direct experience of the mind is sensations that I feel in the head. There is no tasting, hearing, smelling, or touching it.

Having looked, what can you now say about the word "mind"? What does it refer to?

This word points to where we think that thoughts come from, it is pointer. There is no actual “place” that thoughts come from. Unless you count the brain itself in the head because that is where you can see thoughts (on medical scans and such) but even then where would the thoughts come from to show up there, to be experienced there? Nowhere. Thoughts just show up.
Always grateful,
Jessica

[Steve]

Nice, Jessica!

The only thing that I see as a direct experience of the mind is sensations that I feel in the head.

Tell me more about these sensations. :) Do they add up to experiencing something called "mind"?

Thoughts just show up.

Yup. That's how it looks to me!

You skipped over this one:

So is there a thinker? Are "you" the thinker of thoughts?

Are you the thinker?

Let's summarize. You've looked deeply to see whether there's actually a separate "you" doing any of these: hearing, seeing, touching, tasting, smelling, feeling, thinking, choosing, deciding, doing. What have you found? Is there a "you" doing any of those?

You've also looked closely at the thoughts that just show up, and you've found that 95% of them are telling and retelling the story of "you," most often retelling stories about a made-up past or an imaginary future.

You've also tasted the sweetness of being more attentive to the present moment (which is the only moment there ever is!) and less inclined to get carried away by the stories.

So tell me, when you simply open the refrigerator door and look directly inside, what do you see in response to these:

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

With Love,
Steve