Charlie Looking for a Guide +

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie

How was the birdwatching? As you watched the birds, did you wonder if they too have separate little bird selves? Or did you get the impression that the birds, the coast, the air, the trees, the sun is all a seemless effortless movement of life?

what I find when I look is just unpleasant sensations

What determines what's pleasant or unpleasant? What decides? What labels?

is there anything about a sensation that is intrinsically unpleasant or pleasant? or does that labelling happen later and how and why?
Can pleasant or unpleasant sensations be actually found in direct experience?

seeing arises that "all this going on"

Is this seen or is it more like a thought?

is just on auto-pilot -

Do things really happen on auto-pilot? When you watch nature, does it seem o be on auto-pilot? Does a tree grow on auto-pilot or a bird fly on auto-pilot?

the world is just happening in accordance with causes and conditions which there's no "I" that has anything to do with controlling it. And there is just experience of it happening. Nobody's home. Your word "relaxing" nicely does describe those moments of such seeing.

Is there still a feeling, even if subtle, that things are happening to a separate me? Is there a you sitting inside the body while things around you happen on auto-pilot?

What happens when the seeing is not clear? Does the self come back and take control of the reins?

Much love
Silvia

[charlieaa]

Thursday, Aug 15 2013, 11:00 PDT
Dear Silvia,

How was the birdwatching?

Cool, foggy (London?) a few birds, and basically, glorious!!

As you watched the birds, did you wonder if they too have separate little bird selves?

No, not this time but it has happened in the past - the question has been: "I wonder what's going on in her little Willett mind? - Food"

Or did you get the impression that the birds, the coast, the air, the trees, the sun is all a seemless effortless movement of life?

Not yesterday; (pre-occupied with "birding" conversation and messing with our scope, consulting bird guides and such.) HOWEVER, there were opportunities to remember to LOOK. The words to describe that looking would be: " Oh! this is just amazing - look at ➃all this happening! (that would be especially the surf - pounding - salt air, bird calls, wind on the bluffs in the sage and the sage smells, the mountains, . . . everything.) Those words come after, BUT, the experience IS WORDLESS. Then, suddenly I'm asked: "Charlie, do you think it's a Whimbrel? see the head markings?" and the "all this" is gone. BUT, now as I write, the conversations, birding, all of it is still part of the whole thing. What's being learned is attentiveness, I think. At least "remembering to look" is happening much more often the last few days. More below ➃. The birds at my feeders and the Oak trees out back this morning are just as much the seamless effortless movement of life as the ocean places. So this morning have been at the window a lot. :-)

What determines what's pleasant or unpleasant? What decides? What labels?

Pleasant or unpleasant are labels that are applied by memory of similar sensations in the past that the mind attaches - after➁ the experience of a sensation. There is no "decider, labeller." It is really a (very quick) knee-jerk reaction based on un-examined assumptions.

➀Is there anything about a sensation that is intrinsically unpleasant or pleasant? or does that labelling happen ➁later and how and ➂why?

➀No. ➁Later. (I have watched it happen in slow motion with some sensations and been amazed to see it.) ➂I (the mind) learned to; for example, I'd watch other kids cry over a scrape on the knee. It really didn't "hurt". It was the unfamiliar sensation, sight of blood, and overreaction of, say, parents (Oh, poor baby!! Be brave!!), tones of voice, body language, etc. which taught me how to react and associate that sensation to the overriding belief/fear that the "I" has been violated. Those lessons spilled over into all sorts of other sensations, reactions, emotions, thinking.

Can pleasant or unpleasant sensations be actually found in direct experience?

No. HOWEVER, the body does seem to perceive trauma and danger that need attention. The signal is, I think, strong sensations. There is in me a growing realization (realisation) that it'll get taken care of without "my" drama. I have advanced arthritis in my lower back - lots of "sensations." This realization - relaxing the "need" for the iron-fisted-control illusion, has helped immeasurably.

seeing arises that "all this going on" is just on auto-pilot -

➃ [Yet another reason why I need a guide.] "All this going on" IS a thought, after the fact - as above. Again, the actual experience is wordless. "Auto-pilot" is the wrong term. I see that now. It shows a mistaken assumption of pre-determined, lock-step conformance to some kind of iron-clad rules.

Do things really happen on auto-pilot? When you watch nature, does it seem o be on auto-pilot? Does a tree grow on auto-pilot or a bird fly on auto-pilot?

No. "Things" are the result of causes and conditions that are always in flux, unfolding in the present. Nothing pre-determined.

Silvia, I write those words with a certain amount of parrotting. I have only on a few occasions SEEN/experienced such unfolding. Your word/idea of "relaxing" into is moving me into new, more such seeing.

Is there still a feeling, even if subtle, that things are happening to a separate me?

Yes, subtle - to a separate me. But, largely un-noticed while it's happening.

Is there a you sitting inside the body while things around you happen on auto-pilot?

This is fading. It's noticed from time to time, but the little me is seen through pretty quickly lately.

What happens when the seeing is not clear? Does the self come back and take control of the reins?

OK. Sorry Silvia, long answer: Once in a while there is clear impersonal seeing - nobody home, all is effortlessly being alive - exhilarating. Then there's a lot of the time when there's no awareness of seeing - the self(?) is in control (or thinks it is and/or is trying to be.) THEN there are times when "the seeing is not clear." I'm not sure this is what you meant but it's an experience needed to express: "I" wake up from the "no awareness of seeing" and look but there's little clarity. "Nobody home" doesn't work. So, yes, there's a lot of thinking about it. Which is, I guess, the self taking control of the reins.

This was to be an "easy" post. Your questions kicked up a lot of assumptions on my part.

Sorry to take so long.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

London is no longer foggy these days :). Which is good for the lungs, although visually much less dramatic I'm sure.

the self(?) is in control (or thinks it is and/or is trying to be.) THEN there are times when "the seeing is not clear." I'm not sure this is what you meant but it's an experience needed to express: "I" wake up from the "no awareness of seeing" and look but there's little clarity. "Nobody home" doesn't work. So, yes, there's a lot of thinking about it. Which is, I guess, the self taking control of the reins.

There is no separate self so, how can something that doesn't exist think or try to be in control?

If there is no self, then what comes back; a self that doesn't exist or a story about a self?

A story is just thought. Can a thought itself think?

In direct experience, what is lack of clarity?

Much love x

[charlieaa]

8-16 12:30 PDT

Hi Silvia,

Am taking more time to review/look at my answers. Every time I get ready to post, another seeing/yeah-but comes up, more writing. Where it's heading now is that my long-standing illusion/thought that "there are periods of not seeing clearly" is just a thought, too. i.e., when I think I was "lost" there was still clear seeing. That changes a lot for me.
It may be that the "awakening from the dream" metaphor is misleading or has been misinterpreted by me. Actually, this mind is in no position to judge that right now.
Will write tomorrow unless it unravels tonight.
Bless you for your perseverance.
charlie

[charlieaa]

Saturday, Aug. 17, 2013 12:25 PDT

Dear Silvia,

This time, it's all a LOT clearer. For me, it's a shift ongoing today and yesterday.

"the self(?) is in control (or thinks it is and/or is trying to be.)

"There is no separate self so, how can something that doesn't exist think or try to be in control?

Yes. It could be a language misunderstanding. When I referred to "the self?", what was meant was a sense of self, a sense/feeling/sensation(s) of "a being in control." The "sense/feeling/sensation(s)" are real experiences. THEN a NEW thought arises: "Now I see that I was lost/absorbed in the experience of being in control." BUT, THAT'S just another story, too! There is no controller or self.

If there is no self, then what comes back; a self that doesn't exist or a story about a self?

Oh Yes! There IS NO "coming back." (Thoughts don't think themselves.) There is only NEW experience arising and the attendant thoughts/stories. Sometimes those stories assume a non-existent "self." AND,

A story is just thought. Can a thought itself think?

No. All that happens is a NEW thought arises to replace the prior one. The new thought arises because of causes and conditions - actually has nothing to do with any other thought. i.e., once a thought vanishes/passes, it's gone - really has NO effect on what comes after it - (no matter how much charlie's subsequent thoughts/stories contain content that seems to make it so.)

Charlie wrote: "THEN there are times when "the seeing is not clear." . . . and look but there's little clarity.

In direct experience, what is lack of clarity?

OK. The nervous system/perception is always clear - direct experience is ongoing. There is a thought that "the seeing is not clear." There is another thought that "I" want there to be something called "clear seeing." But clear seeing is always already the case without any words to describe it!

Again, to repeat my post of yesterday - there has been a recurring thought that "I can't get it because I'm mostly lost in my thoughts - I'm lost in 'the dream'." But, there is no "lost." A "dream" is yet another story for me now.

Thank you, still more.
charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hey Charlie!

Great, great stuff :-). Well done.


So, how does it feel to see this way?

Are there any doubts remaining?

Is it clear that a thought that says "I'm not getting it" or " I've lost it" is just a thought passing by?

Much love
Silvia xxx

[charlieaa]

Sunday Eve - 8/18 - 19:00

Dear Silvia,

Gotta post today! Will write tomorrow. Yes, things happening. Not dramatic but, thinking wants to make it so. There is a feeling of ?spaciousness - but it's more than that. I'm excited (experiencing some excitement) to write you about it - but right now, stories are getting in there - I'm letting it settle - relaxing into it.

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

HI Charlie

Apart from a thought that says thinking wants to make things dramatic, is there an actual experience of thought being able to do anything at all, other than being thoughts?

Apart from a thought that says stories are getting in the way, is there a direct experience of stories being able to anything other than being stories?

It's ok if you want to take your time. If there's loads happening, just write what feels more relevant when you're ready.

Much love
S

[charlieaa]

Tuesday, Aug 20 10:00 PDT

Hi Silvia,

Apart from a thought that says thinking wants to make things dramatic, is there an actual experience of thought being able to do anything at all, other than being thoughts?
Apart from a thought that says stories are getting in the way, is there a direct experience of stories being able to anything other than being stories?

No! They're just thoughts about thoughts. (I kinda knew that when I wrote it - but got sloppy and hurried without really looking. Just more thoughts-story.) I had wanted to regale you with the "insights" arrived at during early walk about the "charlie body thing" just being life continuing - not even being born - and how an appendage of thoughts of and about "I" with all the memories and emotions, etc. had developed. The feelings accompanying these insights led to words that described something "dramatic." It took a day to finally recognize that the descriptions of so called "insights" are just thoughts too. HOWEVER, there WAS a direct experience of something, i.e., the perceptions/sensations of lightness, "freedom." This mind seems to want to put it into a concept/words. Partly because "I" want to tell you about it.
Again!! the "body" is a label. There is no experiencer. The image of the appendage DID lend itself to a lessening of taking thoughts seriously. It arises as this writing continues, helping to see - at the moment - that there is just writing, thinking, no charlie doing it.

So, how does it feel to see this way?

The re-discovering that thoughts are a stream, unconnected, as posted the other day, seemed to result in a spaciousness, lightness and abandoning of a need to control. It was pleasantly experienced on that morning walk. Then, the "insights."
What seems to be a big part of this new seeing is the total illusion of any control (AGAIN/STILL!)

Are there any doubts remaining? Is it clear that a thought that says "I'm not getting it" or " I've lost it" is just a thought passing by?

It IS clear that the doubts are just thoughts. BUT, they keep coming up and with them, the usual, memorized "unpleasant" sensations. There is lots more looking at this currently. Any questions/pointers you have would be appreciated. I'll post again tomorrow. Meanwhile, there is still a new freedom whenever the "I'm not in control - there's nobody home" thoughts come up.

Be Well,

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

The feelings accompanying these insights led to words that described something "dramatic." It took a day to finally recognize that the descriptions of so called "insights" are just thoughts too. HOWEVER, there WAS a direct experience of something, i.e., the perceptions/sensations of lightness, "freedom." This mind seems to want to put it into a concept/words. Partly because "I" want to tell you about it.

Well, of course the descriptions would be thoughts. But how else are you going to communicate with me without using those thoughts?

Is the mind a separate entity that wants things?

If you want to tell me about something that feels relevant to your search just do it Charlie. Because quite frankly I'm not entirely sure I understand your post. It feels like you are censoring yourself, in case you say the "wrong" thing.

The image of the appendage DID lend itself to a lessening of taking thoughts seriously.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean with the appendage analogy. could you explain a bit?

What seems to be a big part of this new seeing is the total illusion of any control (AGAIN/STILL!)

Ok, could you expand a bit on this?

there is still a new freedom whenever the "I'm not in control - there's nobody home" thoughts come up.

So what we are trying to do here is to keep on having the "right" thoughts all the time?

Where is this I that is not in control? Can you see it? taste it? hear it? touch it? Where does it live?

x

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Just stole this from somebody else;

For the purpose of communicating, words are all we have to work with, but they are never intended to be the absolute truth. They are only meant to point toward it.

So don't be afraid to use words Charlie. The point is to SEE the truth, not to end up speaking in some convoluted fashion.

[charlieaa]

Friday, Aug 23 10:00 PDT
Hi Silvia,

If you want to tell me about something that feels relevant to your search just do it Charlie. Because quite frankly I'm not entirely sure I understand your post. It feels like you are censoring yourself, in case you say the "wrong" thing.

So don't be afraid to use words Charlie. The point is to SEE the truth, not to end up speaking in some convoluted fashion.

Yes. Censoring, convoluted. I know.

The other day there WAS an experience - felt as an insight - whatever that is - I don't know anymore. Anyway, the image/vision left an impression - i.e., a returning thought that lends a perspective and a refreshing clarity as to who/what this charlie thing is. The words, including such as "appendage," were my feeble attempts to describe it.

What seems to be a big part of this new seeing is the total illusion of any control (AGAIN/STILL!)

Ok, could you expand a bit on this?

there is still a new freedom whenever the "I'm not in control - there's nobody home" thoughts come up.

For some moments, Life life-ing was obvious. Not the rocks and trees; just this body being a continuation of life in this form at these moments. It was happening on it's own, impersonally. No meaningfullness, importance. There upon came a delightful sense of freedom - pressure, fear gone. That's when the words intervened. "How am I ever going to describe this to Silvia!?" Should it even be mentioned? Was it just a bunch of thoughts? "

Where is this I that is not in control? Can you see it? taste it? hear it? touch it? Where does it live?

Right now, I can't remember what I meant when I wrote that. I'd like to report that it meant "there's no "I" that is in control." That would be in keeping with "the vision" on the morning walk. But, I don't remember. Your questions here are excellent.

there is still a new freedom whenever the "I'm not in control - there's nobody home" thoughts come up.

So what we are trying to do here is to keep on having the "right" thoughts all the time?

Yes!! There's the expectations showing up. There's a recurring thought that some "I" should get to a point where it oversees arising thoughts/sensations dispassionately - does not get personally involved in fear, emotions, etc. The idea of benign aloofness comes to mind - literally. Please, whack me with the zen stick. Why/how does this keep coming up???

I have written and re-written on all this for two days. Always, the returning thought: "that's just a thought."
One question now is, what is an 'insight?" When there's a "flash" of seeing/understanding, is it to be dismissed as "just a thought?"

Anyway, Elena is here this weekend. I'm looking forward to that. She's here tonight too but I can't afford it.

May you be well,
charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hey Charlie,

Sorry I wasn't able to write this weekend. But perhaps it it's been good for you to take a little break from all this posting? How have you been? How did your meeting with Elena go? Did anything interesting come up from it? Did you find it helpful?

For some moments, Life life-ing was obvious. Not the rocks and trees; just this body being a continuation of life in this form at these moments. It was happening on it's own, impersonally. No meaningfullness, importance. There upon came a delightful sense of freedom - pressure, fear gone. That's when the words intervened. "How am I ever going to describe this to Silvia!?" Should it even be mentioned? Was it just a bunch of thoughts? "

Lovely! Has there been a shift in perception, even if subtle, happening after this insight? Is there a sense of increased clarity around the fact that no separate self exists or is indeed necessary?

It's ok if the insight came and went with no apparent lasting effect. As you keep looking at direct experience, things will unfold on their own quite naturally. The thing about insight if it's "real" insight, is that it points to reality. And reality is everywhere and everything, so all we have to do is keep on looking.

That's when the words intervened. "How am I ever going to describe this to Silvia!?" Should it even be mentioned? Was it just a bunch of thoughts?

Thoughts are not just thoughts. They are thoughts. Not just. Thoughts. No need to dismiss them. No need to believe in them either. Insight is a moment of clear seeing into the way things are, but like almost anything we experience, it is followed almost immediately by thought. That's not a problem as long as we don't take the thoughts too literally. No thought is ever The Truth. But they do help to communicate it!

Yes!! There's the expectations showing up. There's a recurring thought that some "I" should get to a point where it oversees arising thoughts/sensations dispassionately - does not get personally involved in fear, emotions, etc. The idea of benign aloofness comes to mind - literally.

There is nothing wrong with these expectations! But once again, it is better to put them aside. Because you simply cannot know what it will be like, until you get there! So best to leave an open mind and rely only on DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

Why/how does this keep coming up???

Oh, ok... So now there is a separate self that is in control of what thoughts come up and which don't?!

We speak of putting expectations aside, but what that points to is to an open hearted, open minded approach to investigation. It doesn't mean that thoughts of expectations won't pop up. We are not trying to get rid of thoughts! Thoughts are fine! Leave them be. Just see them for what they are!

Keep an eye on the Gate at all times Charlie. Don't get distracted. The goal is to realise that there is no separate self. So whatever arises, whatever happens, whatever thoughts, emotions, mental states come up, all you need to do is look at them and ask; is there a separate self making this happen/ in control of this/ to which this is happening to...

have written and re-written on all this for two days. Always, the returning thought: "that's just a thought."
One question now is, what is an 'insight?" When there's a "flash" of seeing/understanding, is it to be dismissed as "just a thought?"

If it's taking you two days to write a post, then you are probably over complicating things. Keep it simple. Looking is simple, it requires no effort. And seeing is just the same. If I say look at your computer, the looking and the seeing are the same thing and they happen effortlessly. What we are doing here is no different. What we are doing here IS NOT SPECIAL.

Is there a self to dismiss or not dismiss things Charlie?

Please, whack me with the zen stick.

Awakening by whacking you over the head? I think not. I've whacked you enough already :-p. You know what needs to be done.
Maybe try being kind to yourself now. Even if there is NO literal self. Being kind to what you are is being in harmony with what is. Then there is less resistance and everythings seems easier. Resistance is futile anyway. Things will just continue being what they are.

Much love
S

[charlieaa]

Tues, Aug 27 0900 PDT

Dear Silvia!

I sat next to Elena for two days. On Sunday, the other 5 in the room had already "had the shift." So, she went after me like a laser. My sticking points are STILL who/what is the I that's doing all this doing, trying/wanting to BE somebody, and especially, looking/seeing the identification with this I. 2 hrs Sat and 1½ hr Sun -non-stop interrogating charlie! FACE-TO-FACE with Elena at three feet for 3½hrs is intense! Anyway, I dearly thought of you and your similar work with me.

Your comments today literally have brought tears of gratitude. (Lots of tears lately. The 73 yo Viet Nam Vet tough male image is gone!!) You answered my questions.

Lovely! Has there been a shift in perception, even if subtle, happening after this insight? Is there a sense of increased clarity around the fact that no separate self exists or is indeed necessary?

Oh gawd, yes. There's an "echo" that moves me closer to the clarity that none of any of this is happening to a me/self. It is subtle. It's coming up "on it's own" (of course) during the day. After your remarks and this weekend, it's clear that the insight was genuine - BUT, it WAS

followed almost immediately by thought. That's not a problem as long as we don't take the thoughts too literally.

In the present, direct experience they are gone and hanging on to them by some charlie guy covers over the present moment. OOOOPS!! As I write, I see there's no charlie guy to hold on to anything and the present moment happens anyway.

There is nothing wrong with these expectations! But once again, it is better to put them aside. Because you simply cannot know what it will be like, until you get there! So best to leave an open mind and rely only on DIRECT EXPERIENCE.

Absolutely! Besides your re-"minder," Elena added that it's just a habit of the mind - like a groove/rut. I've been seeking so long, absorbed so much crap, and WANT THINGS TO BE DIFFERENT THAN THEY ARE, that there's really no idea what's to be expected. What a load off "my mind." I don't have to figure it out AND there's no I to do it anyway. HA HA HA HA!!! What a joke!

With that, now, is the time to tell you my "orders" from Elena. "Take a week off from all this seeking." Just like you urged some weeks ago, she said "you go hiking, get out in nature, do your swimming and you can read your politics - but NO LU, posting, reading spiritual books."

And reality is everywhere and everything, so all we have to do is keep on looking. Maybe try being kind to yourself now. Even if there is NO literal self. Being kind to what you are is being in harmony with what is. Then there is less resistance and everythings seems easier. Resistance is futile anyway. Things will just continue being what they are.

Right now, Silvia, I've (for want of a better word) feel much closer if that's what you mean by

a sense of increased clarity around the fact that no separate self exists or is indeed necessary?

So, I'm taking about a week off after carefully appreciating your words, starting today. It's an excellent time for two reasons: 1) the computer hard drive is 8 yrs old and the shop has my new 1TB drive and new PCI card waiting. Might take up to 3 days; 2) there's a feeling of "burnt out" today and I'm going to take Elena's direction. BUT, I don't think it's even possible NOT to look at all. Wonderful new habits are happening in this body mind. There's no I doing them. But, there is to be no obsessive focused digging.

Not all of your comments/questions have been addressed here today but they are with me and have been absorbed.

The puter goes in now. I WILL look in during the week tho-but not post, OK? I will write you no later than a week!

Thank you for remembering me!

charlie

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

Sounds like you had a great meeting with Elena! And very intense too! Wow.

Taking a break sounds like a great idea. Specially after such a weekend. Good to let things percolate on their own (as they do, anyway! ;-)

No books, no reading.. not even LU! great advice, he, he, he.. ;-)

Well, have a good time, and give me a shout when you feel ready to come back. No time frame here.


Much love
S xxx