Greetings ~ please can I receive guidance?!

[Cloudy]

Hello, my name is Robyn and I have been on my spiritual journey for quite a number of years. I came across non~duality about 6 months ago and the teachings totally resonated with me. I have since been reading various books and listening to many different teachers on youtube. I found Tony Parson's energy great (went to see him a couple of times), but I prefer a teacher who points to self-enquiry and direct experience such as Rupert Spira. I have done my own "investigating" and have concluded that there is no sign of a "me" anywhere to be found yet the illusion of self is so strong that I find that I get pulled back into separation quite easily and it is hard to fully live a non~dual life which is my main aim. I don't want to just grasp this intellectually or conceptually, I actually want to "live it". I am aware that I am "presence" and everything is happening in that, but the old story of "me" still wants to dominate and I need some guidance to rid myself fully from this illusion. I am also aware that this teaching seems to be beyond words and the intellect (or mind) just serves to pull us back into duality. I hope I'm making some sense here....I would just like some clarity and pointers from someone who is liberated. I have incidentally read "liberation Unleashed" which I found to be very helpful. Thank you in advance, look forward to meeting my guide!

[Xain]

Hello Cloudy / Robyn

Welcome to the Forum. I would be willing to guide you. My Forum name is Xain (pronounced the same as Zane).

I came across non~duality about 6 months ago and the teachings totally resonated with me.

Only 6 months wow! I was fairly 'quick' too once I had had a glimpse of what was really happening. It took me a year from the first glimpse, to passing through the gateless gate.

I found Tony Parson's energy great (went to see him a couple of times), but I prefer a teacher who points to self-enquiry and direct experience such as Rupert Spira.

Great! I've watched lots of Tony Parsons and Rupert Spira videos and went to see Rupert once in Oxford. Two totally different approaches to the same thing.

I have done my own "investigating" and have concluded that there is no sign of a "me" anywhere to be found yet the illusion of self is so strong that I find that I get pulled back into separation quite easily and it is hard to fully live a non~dual life which is my main aim.
I don't want to just grasp this intellectually or conceptually, I actually want to "live it".

Essentially, Liberation Unleashed is simply an extension of your own self-enquiry, but is 'guided' by someone who can apparently assist. We aim to get full realisation, not just an intellectual understanding.

If there is no sign of a 'me', then what is going to live out a non-dual life, and what is aiming for it?
If there is no 'me' now, there never has been a 'me' living out 'life' of any kind.

I am aware that I am "presence" and everything is happening in that, but the old story of "me" still wants to dominate and I need some guidance to rid myself fully from this illusion.

Sure thing. We will examine directly what 'I' is. I am 'presence' can be considered a valid stepping stone out of the illusion, and I take it you have picked that up from Rupert.
For the moment, please put all ideas of yourself and 'liberation' to one side and approach this from a fresh perspective without any pre-conceptions or expectations of any kind.

A few guidelines which will assist us both.

1. Please post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from direct personal experience only (we can go into this in more depth later if needed).
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
(Scroll down the page)

If you need to you can use the QUOTE function like I have done a few times here to quote some of your replies - It may make it easier to read through the dialogue.
A guide for this function can be found here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Xain ♥

[Cloudy]

Hi Xain
Fantastic, thanks for showing up so quickly! I'm ready to start am just replying quickly but I can tune in tonight
as I'm going out now!
Are you on GMT?
Cloudy

[Xain]

Hi Robyn

Yes, I am on GMT time.
Have a look at what I replied when you have a moment, and let me know if you have any questions or thoughts.

Xain ♥

[Cloudy]

Hi Xain

Thanks for your reply.

Only 6 months wow! I was fairly 'quick' too once I had had a glimpse of what was really happening. It took me a year from the first glimpse, to passing through the gateless gate.

yes, it seems to be quite a short amount of time but I really felt such a relief on hearing these teachings. They seemed quite radical to start with (especially as I was first listening to Tony Parsons)...but now there is just a "knowing" that beyond even the words of this teaching is a very beautiful gift, and that gift has been presented to "me" in order to end the suffering and dance with presence.

Essentially, Liberation Unleashed is simply an extension of your own self-enquiry, but is 'guided' by someone who can apparently assist. We aim to get full realisation, not just an intellectual understanding.

This is music to my ears! My understanding goes beyond the intellect as I (as "Presence", not little separate "I") have felt this. Full realisation has not quite happened yet though.

If there is no sign of a 'me', then what is going to live out a non-dual life, and what is aiming for it?
If there is no 'me' now, there never has been a 'me' living out 'life' of any kind.

This is great....this is what makes me realise there is still an identification with the "I" as a separate individual. I am not sure why this keeps getting reinforced, sometimes it can be as subtle as language...talking to friends/strangers.....how do we replace the word "I"? This could be an exercise? Exactly...what IS aiming for anything? This grasping non~existent illusion of self....quite confusing. It is also quite funny that we are trying to rid ourselves of an illusion that was never there in the first place!? Yes, it's so strong. I am thinking it is layers of conditioning and early programming that need to be wiped.

Yes the "I am Presence" has been from Rupert. I also have tuned into this presence and found it to be there constantly and this has been a revelation and great comfort.

For the moment, please put all ideas of yourself and 'liberation' to one side and approach this from a fresh perspective without any pre-conceptions or expectations of any kind.

Yes chomping at the bit!

Cloudy.

[Xain]

If there is no sign of a 'me', then what is going to live out a non-dual life, and what is aiming for it?
If there is no 'me' now, there never has been a 'me' living out 'life' of any kind.

This is great....this is what makes me realise there is still an identification with the "I" as a separate individual. I am not sure why this keeps getting reinforced, sometimes it can be as subtle as language...
How do we replace the word "I"?

Well language itself in based in duality, and reinforces it continuously.
Even for our chat here we have to use common language to communicate. There is no need to replace words, just for realisation to take place.
But there are two levels.
One is convention (relative), and one is absolute.
The THOUGHT that there is one individual person talking to another individual person is fine. This is convention, but until it is realised as JUST A THOUGHT and not reality, there will be a seeker, and there is still the option for mental suffering to occur due to the illusion of separation.

Exactly...what IS aiming for anything?

Hehe . . . you need to find out - I'm not going to feed you new concepts or ideas; Simply ask you to look into your own experience and realise what the truth is.

I am thinking it is layers of conditioning and early programming that need to be wiped.

This may be an expectation. All that is needed is one simple moment of clarity and 'seeing'.
It would be some-what naïve to expect many years of conditioning to be wiped out by 'liberation', the seeing that there is no individual separate 'I' here. But once seen through, it is the end of the 'seeker' and the conditioning if and when it appears can be seen for the illusion that it is.

Yes the "I am Presence" has been from Rupert. I also have tuned into this presence and found it to be there constantly and this has been a revelation and great comfort.

It's a great area to be in - Simply the witness of all that happens.

Like I say though, for our investigation put away all teachings and study and let's approach this very simply and freshly.

Right, straight off the bat.

What are 'you'? What is 'Robyn'? Give me an idea of 'I'.
Just answer simply from what you feel without lots of intellectual analysis or understanding from any of the teachers you have come across. Answer simply and honestly.
Is 'I' the body? Is 'I' the reader of this sentence?
Does 'I' have a history? Does 'I' make decisions and choices?
These are just a few ideas for 'you', but feel free to elaborate and go into depth with how you see it from your own perspective.

What is meant / pointed to when you say the word 'I'?

Xain ♥

[Cloudy]

good morning Xain,

Thanks for the email. Okay, here we go....some answers to your questions....

What are 'you'? What is 'Robyn'? Give me an idea of 'I'.

Robyn is a name, a label for the apparent personal self housed in this body. I know I am not that name. I feels very much like an entity housed inside a body.

Is 'I' the body? Is 'I' the reader of this sentence?

Does 'I' have a history? Does 'I' make decisions and choices?

I is not the body, but feels very much identified with the body as there are feelings and sensations which arise that give the impression that something (call it "I") that is sensitive, that feels, that is affected by outer circumstances/inner memories is housed inside the body. Reactions to people/words/places are felt in the body and feel very personal. "I" feels very sensitive and sometimes very vulnerable.

Something is reading this sentence and is responding, and that something could be felt to be "I" but I do not have clarity on that.

"I" don't have a history, although memories seem to crop up which relate to the apparent "I". I however do not attach too much to these memories as I am existing only in the now, so these do just seem like thoughts that come and go and I don't give them meaning.

Do I make decisions and choices? This is a hard one to answer as when "I" disappears and the flow of life is running the show, decisions/choices just happen but when the "I" pops back (albeit an illusion) it feels like that "I" is making those decisions/choices. I have experienced both sides of the coin....

To add to that, "I" seems to be a label that makes communicating with other people a necessity...."I" did this, "I did that, what am "I" doing at the moment...and it just confuses me into constantly identifying with the "I". If I am on my own, it's much easier to drop the identification. I feels finds peace when alone, but difficulties arise when faced with other people (ie, close relationships) as it seems to bring up a sense of a separate "I" as they can innocently trigger patterns of behaviour which appear very personal and cause suffering. As I write this, I am aware that the mind is involved in all of this, the tricky monkey mind can jump in, take ownership of all the negativity and run with it until exhaustion is experienced....only after a while (and this seems to get shorter in apparent time) the underlying sense of peace is felt and the realisation that the peace is always there and the ONLY thing which is never harmed or disturbed. It is a constant, it is a pure, unknowing constant. Am I that? Yes, I really am that but it's very convincing all this other stuff, even though it comes and goes.
The little, separate "I", really seems to cause a lot of suffering and monkey business even though I am aware on a deep level that "I" am not that. The separate I is simply a fabrication of the mind, I know that but yet...I'm not liberated yet.

Thanks for listening....have a great day,

R

Robyn

[Xain]

What are 'you'? What is 'Robyn'? Give me an idea of 'I'.

Robyn is a name, a label for the apparent personal self housed in this body.

Cool - Ok - There is something housed inside the body that is 'I'.

Something is reading this sentence and is responding, and that something could be felt to be "I" but I do not have clarity on that.

Well have a look at the sentence again. Look into your experience and try to find what 'I' is.
Generally we say things like, 'I' see the screen, and 'I' read the sentence.
We need a clear base to proceed on, so try and get clarity if you can.
Look into your experience here and now and try to find the 'I' that sees the text. Is there one?
Can you detect an 'I' housed inside the body that sees the screen?
Or could it be that there is just 'seeing', without a findable 'thing' that is doing it?

"I" don't have a history, although memories seem to crop up which relate to the apparent "I".

Keep it simple. Recent history - Did 'you' start this conversation with me? If not, what can you find that did it?
Or did the conversation just 'happen'?

I am existing only in the now

Is there an 'I that existed in the past? Or are these just thoughts?
Will there be an 'I' that will exist in the future? Or are these just thoughts as well?
What does the one that is existing in the now look like?
Or is that one just another thought too?

Do I make decisions and choices? This is a hard one to answer as when "I" disappears and the flow of life is running the show

Interesting . . . so when 'I' appears, the flow of life no-longer runs the show?
What about the 'flow of life' running the entire show all the time?

To add to that, "I" seems to be a label that makes communicating with other people a necessity...."I" did this, "I did that, what am "I" doing at the moment . . .

Absolutely, but this is language convention - The exchange of thoughts and ideas. There is nothing wrong with that. Duality is not a mistake.
But what we seek here is the truth of whether there is a separate individual 'I' here, and if so, what form does it take. Or is 'I' just a thought and nothing more?

I feel I find peace when alone, but difficulties arise when faced with other people (ie, close relationships) as it seems to bring up a sense of a separate "I" as they can innocently trigger patterns of behaviour which appear very personal and cause suffering

Of all the things, close relationships are the ones most likely to 'trigger' us.

The separate I is simply a fabrication of the mind, I know that but yet...I'm not liberated yet.

That's peculiar! 'I is all in the mind, but there is a REAL 'I' that can get liberated?
Is there?

Xain ♥

[Cloudy]

Hi Xain

Thanks for your reply...will endeavour to answer your questions.

Yes...re the reading the sentence question. I have looked and I feel that seeing the sentence is just happening, there is no I doing the reading. It is just being read. That seems quite clear.

Keep it simple. Recent history - Did 'you' start this conversation with me? If not, what can you find that did it?
Or did the conversation just 'happen'?

It seems that there was a sense of initiating a conversation with you on this website but I didn't make that decision, it just happened. Feeling like one needs to pay a lot of attention to this on a daily basis, it's the attention to it which helps me see though the illusion of the separate self.

I am existing only in the now


Is there an 'I that existed in the past? Or are these just thoughts?
Will there be an 'I' that will exist in the future? Or are these just thoughts as well?
What does the one that is existing in the now look like?
Or is that one just another thought too?

These are just thoughts of an I existing in the past. There is no past, or future, I can see that clearly now. When I say "I am existing only in the now"...what I mean is there is only existing in the now, the "I" is just the witness of that. By "I" I mean Presence".

Do I make decisions and choices? This is a hard one to answer as when "I" disappears and the flow of life is running the show


Interesting . . . so when 'I' appears, the flow of life no-longer runs the show?
What about the 'flow of life' running the entire show all the time?

Yes....the flow of life runs the show all the time, BUT there is sometimes an appearance of "I" running the show, but this is JUST A THOUGHT. I realise that on investigation. There is just life happening....I know this on a deep level, but it's the appearance of the separate self, that jumps in when there is not enough attention. This is why I'm here asking for guidance, I hope I'm making sense. I'm trying to keep it simple. I really need to feel this as a constant instead it feels rather inconsistent.

The separate I is simply a fabrication of the mind, I know that but yet...I'm not liberated yet.


That's peculiar! 'I is all in the mind, but there is a REAL 'I' that can get liberated?
Is there?

heee haaa that made me chuckle. I see the confusion of this sentence! Okay. I see clearly that there is no "I" to be liberated that we are already free. I also know that the nature of the mind is to keep us in duality. What I'm finding difficult is actually experiencing the feeling of freedom, peace etc. that I know is there when the separate self is finished off. It's really coming and going....It's like the mind that creates the sense of the separate self is really playing up bigtime...and really not wanting to let go of that thought. I know I can't trust the thoughts, but I've been listening to them for many years so suddenly I feel like "where the hell am I in this soup". Can get very confusing.....the power of the mind.....it's a new(ish) concept to not listen to the "blah blah". Maybe it just takes time, and practice.

Thanks so much for helping me with this!

Robyn

[Xain]

Hi again Robyn

Ok, big pointer time.
There is the potential to go round and round circles with some of this investigation, and the only way that can be broken is for you too LOOK. Examine your immediate experience. Don't THINK what the answer is. Don't be tempted to gloss over anything that is asked. Let the mind go quiet and seek what the truth using the senses available in the immediate 'now'.

Keep it simple. Recent history - Did 'you' start this conversation with me? If not, what can you find that did it?
Or did the conversation just 'happen'?

It seems that there was a sense of initiating a conversation with you on this website but I didn't make that decision, it just happened. Feeling like one needs to pay a lot of attention to this on a daily basis, it's the attention to it which helps me see though the illusion of the separate self.

Now it is time to LOOK. Look into your experience right now and find the answer to the following question.
There is a sense that nothing started the conversation. Just LIFE itself happening. But there is SOMETHING that needs to pay attention regularly.
What is here and now that needs to pay regular attention? LOOK!
What is the one that going to see through the illusion?
What does this 'I' look like? Is there one?

These are just thoughts of an I existing in the past. There is no past, or future, I can see that clearly now. When I say "I am existing only in the now"...what I mean is there is only existing in the now, the "I" is just the witness of that. By "I" I mean Presence".

So there is a separate 'thing' called 'Presence' which is 'I', a witness? Ok.
Now look! Look into experience right now and locate where this 'presence' is. Can you pinpoint the location of this 'presence'?
Also, there must be a 'thing' which knows that 'I' is 'presence'?
What is that?

Yes....the flow of life runs the show all the time, BUT there is sometimes an appearance of "I" running the show, but this is JUST A THOUGHT. I realise that on investigation. There is just life happening....I know this on a deep level, but it's the appearance of the separate self, that jumps in when there is not enough attention. This is why I'm here asking for guidance, I hope I'm making sense. I'm trying to keep it simple. I really need to feel this as a constant instead it feels rather inconsistent.

Yes, yes, this is great! It makes perfect sense.
But more looking is needed. What is this 'I that is in need of guidance?
Is there a 'thing' there that needs guidance? Describe it to me.

I see clearly that there is no "I" to be liberated that we are already free.

No, it is not seen clearly. LOOK! What 'I' is already free?

Xain ♥

[Cloudy]

Hi Xain

Thanks for getting back to me.

There is a sense that nothing started the conversation. Just LIFE itself happening. But there is SOMETHING that needs to pay attention regularly.
What is here and now that needs to pay regular attention? LOOK!
What is the one that going to see through the illusion?
What does this 'I' look like? Is there one?

All I can say with honesty right now, is there can't be TWO selves, so this one self I refer to has to be presence and the witness of it is a thought. That's as clear as I can get through looking. There is nothing in the here and now that needs to pay attention, as I write this, nothing can be found. What is the one that is going to see through the illusion? Also nothing to be found, it is just another thought.
WHat does I look like? Again, there is no place to pinpoint "I", it is another thought that there is a separate I as existence is happening, experiences are felt, tiredness is happening, but there is no "I" to be found doing
anything and looking like anything. This is my direct experience of looking.

So there is a separate 'thing' called 'Presence' which is 'I', a witness? Ok.
Now look! Look into experience right now and locate where this 'presence' is. Can you pinpoint the location of this 'presence'?
Also, there must be a 'thing' which knows that 'I' is 'presence'?
What is that?

I can't locate the presence, it is everywhere and has no boundaries. The thing that knows it is a thought. A thought saying "I exist, I am present". Without this thought, would be just presence. Without the thought presence wouldn't be known, it would just "Be"?

But more looking is needed. What is this 'I that is in need of guidance?
Is there a 'thing' there that needs guidance? Describe it to me.

Ok looking is happening. Mind is still. This "I" that needs guidance is again, another thought..."I need guidance to be liberated". There isn't a thing there. There is just hands typing and fuzzy sensations in the head and nothing else to be found. Just sensations, breathing. Nothing can be found to describe the thing that needs guidance.

I see clearly that there is no "I" to be liberated that we are already free.

No, it is not seen clearly. LOOK! What 'I' is already free?

There is no "I" to be freed as the "I" is just a thought. Surely it's all thoughts....nothing else to say at the moment. Going to chill on this.

Thanks Xain.

Robyn.

[Xain]

Beautiful repies, Robyn.
I can tell you are really looking into this. You are on the right track. Nice work.

I can't locate the presence, it is everywhere and has no boundaries. The thing that knows it is a thought. A thought saying "I exist, I am present". Without this thought, would be just presence. Without the thought presence wouldn't be known, it would just "Be"?

There is 'presence' here - That is undeniable.
Whatever knows that 'presence' is here, is also here - That is undeniable.
Could it be that 'presence' knows itself? Is there anything else to be found other than 'presence'.
Look into this deeply - Without thought, is there anything other than 'presence'?

There is nothing in the here and now that needs to pay attention, as I write this, nothing can be found. What is the one that is going to see through the illusion? Also nothing to be found, it is just another thought.

♥

I can't locate the presence, it is everywhere and has no boundaries. The thing that knows it is a thought.

♥

Ok looking is happening. Mind is still. This "I" that needs guidance is again, another thought..."I need guidance to be liberated". There isn't a thing there. There is just hands typing and fuzzy sensations in the head and nothing else to be found. Just sensations, breathing. Nothing can be found to describe the thing that needs guidance.

♥

There is no "I" to be freed as the "I" is just a thought. Surely it's all thoughts....nothing else to say at the moment. Going to chill on this.

Is there even an 'I' that has a choice to chill?
Is there a separate 'I' here anywhere, in any shape or form that can do or choose anything?
Or is there just life happening? Just 'presence' that knows itself?

Xain ♥

[Cloudy]

Hi Xain

Thanks for your reply.....and encouragement, it's really very much appreciated. The last time I looked, it really helped me to meditate first in order to really switch off the mind and see what came up. A general relaxation seems to be happening which is a relief as feelings of anxiety had been dominant last week! Let's see....

There is 'presence' here - That is undeniable.
Whatever knows that 'presence' is here, is also here - That is undeniable.
Could it be that 'presence' knows itself? Is there anything else to be found other than 'presence'.
Look into this deeply - Without thought, is there anything other than 'presence'?

OK, without thought is there anything other than presence....no there isn't. There is aware presence, that is clear, is that the same as presence knowing itself? I guess so. There is nothing else to be found, simple aware presence.

There is no "I" to be freed as the "I" is just a thought. Surely it's all thoughts....nothing else to say at the moment. Going to chill on this.


Is there even an 'I' that has a choice to chill?
Is there a separate 'I' here anywhere, in any shape or form that can do or choose anything?
Or is there just life happening? Just 'presence' that knows itself?

No "I" with a choice to chill, just a thought popping in saying "Going to chill now". No separate I anywhere that can do or choose anything, just appearances of choices being made. In fact it's amazing the creativity of it all just happening. Does it matter that the "I" pops in and tries to take ownership even, especially if no attention is paid?
Can I ask you Xain, what experiences you have of this "I" popping back, does it pop back or not ever, do you just ignore it....? How is your life, what are your experiences before and after seeing through the illusion? Would love
to know!

Yes it appears that presence knows itself and there is nothing other than presence. Without thought, this is known, and feels very clear and obvious.....

Robyn

[Xain]

The last time I looked, it really helped me to meditate first in order to really switch off the mind and see what came up.

Yes, that is a good place to be.
As I recall the story of the 'seeing' here, the one pronounced thing experienced was loss of thought - The mind went completely silent as 'experienced' was looked into.

There is nothing else to be found, simple aware presence

We may have already covered this, but I need you to be specific. Really look and examine your experience.
Are 'you' that presence? Does 'presence' have a location?

No separate I anywhere that can do or choose anything, just appearances of choices being made. In fact it's amazing the creativity of it all just happening. Does it matter that the "I" pops in and tries to take ownership even, especially if no attention is paid?

Can I ask you Xain, what experiences you have of this "I" popping back, does it pop back or not ever, do you just ignore it....? How is your life, what are your experiences before and after seeing through the illusion? Would love to know!

Well this is something else we can look into, so you can find the answer out for yourself.

Is there a 'controller of thoughts'?
Look into your experience - What controls thoughts?

Do you know what your next thought is going to be?
If there is a 'controller of thoughts', why do negative thoughts appear?
Could it be that thoughts, just like all other objects in experience simply come and go?

What could stop the 'I' thought from coming back?
But then, if the 'I' thought does appears, what does it point to?

Xain ♥

[Cloudy]

Hi Xain
Thanks for the reply....

We may have already covered this, but I need you to be specific. Really look and examine your experience.
Are 'you' that presence? Does 'presence' have a location?

Yes I am the presence and presence on examination doesn't have a location...it has no clear boundaries. It is in fact everywhere so has to be inside and outside the body and permeating everything. We have a body in order to experience human emotions/feelings/sensations, I believe. That is our reason for being on this dense planet. However, suffering and confusion does not have to be part of the experience.

Is there a 'controller of thoughts'?
Look into your experience - What controls thoughts?

No, there is no controller of thoughts to be found anywhere, they simply come and go. This has been seen very clearly. Nothing can stop the "I' thought from coming back except probably, ....grace? what is it pointing to? That the "I' thought is just another thought? The "I" thought is just years of conditioning of a false identity. If this is true then a lot of releasing needs to happen (not "TO" anyone but just layers of accumulated conditioning are bound to arise) . At the moment I'm not experiencing any trickiness but am aware that it's not just going to disappear completely even if the illusion of self has been seen through. Relaxation that life is happening, no controller, no reason to worry or get caught up in the story is prevalent.

Many thanks

Robyn





Thanks for staying with me on this....