"Don't Know" This is for you.

[otterrivers]

it's not important to figure any of this out. and it's not something you will see by looking very hard in a straining sort of way. you just look and say exactly what you see. the questions I ask don't really need answers. they are just arrows pointing in a direction for you to look for yourself.

the main point here is finding out by looking: "is there a self or not?"
the rest will follow naturally after.

it's like the "self" question is the plug in the drain. any other questions are meaningless until you can see whether there is a self or not. do you see what I mean?

So there either is a self or not. just look. tell me what you see. if you find a self when looking, tell me what it is. describe it. just answer this for now:

1) is there a self in reality at all? in any shape or form? was there ever?

[otterrivers]

oh no! I did respond yesterday but I see now it is not here. I was wondering why you didn't reply yet. somehow my reply did not go through? I will try again.

[otterrivers]

oh never mind. I see it is right there above. I just looked at the wrong "page". so yes do respond when possible.

[otterrivers]

There's noting to figure out and nothing there that could figure it out. if you try to figure it out before you just surrender, that's perfectly ok. but you will be trying forever.

Just tell me this: Have you seen through the illusion that the body and mind and feelings are some kind of "being" or "self"? have you seen through this illusion beyond any doubt?

[Don't know]

Hello good to have you back, hope you're feeling better, I just got your post today so sorry if it seemed like I didn't reply.

Is there a self in reality at all? In any shape or form? Was there ever?
No, no self, just a sense of self.
When I look there's no separation, selfing happens like seeing happens but seeing points to things that are real and selfing points to something imaginary. There's relief and relaxation. Stuff just happens. Attachment, craving, aversion arising not in ME but AS me.

Have you seen through the illusion that the body and mind and feelings are some kind of being or self? Have you seen through this illusion beyond any doubt?
Fear arises in belly. Grief in chest. Yes I see through the illusion but the sense of self still happens with strong sensations, habitual thoughts/ feelings continue.
How does surrendering happen? (Rhetorical!)

[otterrivers]

who ever said the sense of self should go away or even weaken? maybe it will. just go with it. there's nothing you can do about it. there's no YOU to do anything about it.

this is why I asked you about the smoking habit earlier. when you first quit, it was tough right? then over time the feeling of craving loosens to where it doesn't even tempt you anymore. just stick to direct experience. there is a sense of self. any self though?

I've got 4 more questions for you. answer as deeply as you can. avoid short, 1 sentence answers if possible. really feel free to rant away.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

[Don't know]

Hi otter
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self is thoughts that attribute experience and action to a sense of 'I', fuelled by a fear that without this I there is a terrible void or abyss that must be avoided at all cost. I don't know when it started (as in, in this life time) as I don't remember a time before ME but everyone around me seemed to believe in and behave as thought there's was an I. I was relieved to discover about 15 years ago that there was a bunch of people called Buddhists who saw the Truth of no self but it seemed so unattainable and all the practices I did were attributed to ME doing them, so reinforced rather than cut through the illusion of self. When it starts (as in NOW) is just happening like any other sensation/ experience in dependence upon conditions, sense of self arises with no separation between sense, senser and sensing. Then thoughts follow claiming 'I'.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels freeing, relaxing, relief, frustration, frightening, depressing. Before I started this dialogue I had expectations of liberation, seeing no self is less dramatic and more gentle than I imagined, there are momentary shifts of perspective but mostly just a loss of view. I wanted to feel (self) acceptance, fearlessness.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The last bit that pushed me over was actually having to honestly answer is there a self? There was such resistance emotionally but a clear knowing that there really is no self which led to surrendering. Also distinguishing sense of self from actual self.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
There's no you to decide there's just deciding, like a flow of conditionality manifesting/ expressing itself as ME. I've heard it described as a ride without a rider but it feels more like watching someone else's ride. Like I go shopping and I've no real idea what I'm going to do/ buy next. I set an intention say to go to the gym and I find myself sunbathing in a hammock. I really want to understand ethics if there is no free will.

Thoughts of Ethics and Acceptance undermine and confound thoughts of no self. They chase each other round.

I'm off tomorrow for 10 days on retreat and may well not be able to contact you I feel very mixed about this...

[otterrivers]

you feel mixed about our conversation? or about having to leave for 10 days without contacting me?

[Don't know]

I feel mixed about having to leave for 10 days without contacting you, quite upset and anxious like I've become a bit dependent on you, your guidance is a reminder of sanity in my craziness, calming somehow even though its challenging, I want to carry on with this inquiry and am wondering whether to try and use my mob phone whilst away despite the difficulties that may cause with the retreat centre and the possible technical frustrations of no signal etc, then I remember how I've enjoyed retreats before because of the absence of input and communication and wonder if it is a good idea for me to just consolidate, absorb and enjoy the silence...

[otterrivers]

well I didn't tell you because I didn't want you to be nervous or try to hard but thse were the "final questions". it looked good to me so I had a few other guides read it to see if i'd missed anything or if they wanted me to ask any further questions to clarify anything. it looks good. i'd like to welcome you through the gate.

[otterrivers]

maybe it doesn't feel too special like you might have expected right? in my experience most people don't have a "big bang". some do, some don't, but it's not necessary. it's just a clear look at life as it really is. as it always already was. no fireworks needed.

The purpose of this conversation was to guide you to see for yourself that there really never was a self (so there's realy no gate! that's why we say 'gateless gate')
we have after care groups to help with all the other questions you have. you'll be able to speak with many others who are also newly "gated" as well as more experienced "gaters". i'll be there too. feel free to contact me any time.

do you use facebook? if not I encourage you to sign up. there are a lot of stigmas attached to facebook because so many people are so crazy with it but you can set it up so that you are only as involved as you'd like to be. even if you use a fake name and some fun picure of a landscape or animal or something (lots of us do that haha).
the reason is that the after care groups are on facebook (except for the "unleashed" section here in the forums). they are private/secret groups. only other members will see what is posted and who is in the group. please find me on facebook. I am "otter rivers". here is a link:

https://www.facebook.com/otter.rivers?h ... ion=stream

let me know that you are "don't know". (in a private facebook message if you'd like)

your forum name will now be changed to the color blue and you will be getting a message from admin with some links to the facebook groups and a couple other things. give it a day or 2. sometimes it happens quickly, other times it may take a little bit, depending on how busy things are.

This is the beginning, not the end. just the end of seeking. but the beginning of... whatever you want to call it. you have seen beyond any ability to un-see that there is no "me". now just relax and go through life. and you will see more and more "oh! no me/others here either... or here... ...or here!". it deepens over time.
so glad you're through. hope to see you in the after care groups and we can discuss your questions about ethics etc.

[otterrivers]

enjoy your retreat. talk to me when you get back ;)