Help me see the illusion of self

[Pallavi]

Yes :)

Are they looking at 'you' or are they just looking at what you think is 'you'?

When you were born, your parents told you- this is you, this is what you look like, they tell you that you see you in the mirror.

You cannot see things from infinite or no angle at any point in time.

So whatever you are seeing, it is from one particular angle right? It is one perspective.

Belief is a thought. Yes :)

So what is belief in the self then?

Has belief taken root in the self, or is the self deeply rooted in your belief? :)

When you were a baby if you put your hand over the fire, would you have known whether you like or dislike it? You would have put it, and there would've been a momentary wanting or not wanting to leave your hand there. The not wanting gets ascribed as 'dislike'

Do you own the dislike? does it belong to you?

Exercise: Go out, point at a rock.

You are pointing to show where the rock is.

Does the rock stop existing if you stop pointing at it?

Can you mistake your fingers for the rock at any time?

Call the rock 'rock'. Then call it 'my rock'. Does it change the rock?

Buy the rock. Take it home. Someone steals it from you. How would you feel?

[Pallavi]

I'm sorry for the delayed response, I've been down with the flu.

[rockstar]

Test

[rockstar]

Belief is rooted in the self or vise versa?
I can't tell. It's more like self=belief.

It will hurt if someone stole the rock because I have associated the rock with ME. The rock itself doesn't change.

[Pallavi]

Please give longer answers and answer all the questions. I can only work with your answers to point you in the right direction.

Exactly. Now replace rock with experience, and the fingers with 'I'.

Your experience doesn't change whether you own it or not.
When we try to own experience and something goes wrong, we get hurt.

You are breathing. You didn't think about your breathing until I pointed it out right?

You are now aware of your breathing.

What's the difference between breathing and you thinking that 'you' are breathing?

Do you require 'you' to breathe?

The self is a thought. Belief in the self is another thought. Take a look at your thoughts. Where do they come from? Can you stop thinking at will for even a few minutes? Can you control your thoughts?

Do you own your breathing? If you tried to stop breathing (control) for more than a few minutes wouldn't you hurt yourself? After those couple of minutes can you really stop your breath for much longer?

[rockstar]

You are breathing. You didn't think about your breathing until I pointed it out right? You are now aware of your breathing. What's the difference between breathing and you thinking that 'you' are breathing? Do you require 'you' to breathe? Do you own your breathing? If you tried to stop breathing (control) for more than a few minutes wouldn't you hurt yourself? After those couple of minutes can you really stop your breath for much longer?
THE BREATHING IS HAPPENING ON ITS OWN ACCORD. BODY SEEMS TO BE DOING WITH NO INVOLVEMENT FROM THE 'I'. INFACT THE 'I' DOE NOT HAVE ANY CONTROL OF THE BREATHING EVEN IF IT WANTS TO. IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT 'I' IS THINKING, BREATHING JUST GOES ON.

The self is a thought. Belief in the self is another thought. Take a look at your thoughts. Where do they come from? Can you stop thinking at will for even a few minutes? Can you control your thoughts?
THOUGHTS ARE JUST ARISING. JUST NOW A THOUGHT OF A COWORKER CAME UP WITHOUT ME INITIATING IT. ONLY THING I CAN SAY THAT SOME THOUGHTS KEEP REPEATING SO MUCH THAT THEY ENFORCE THE SENSE OF I. I AM UNABLE TO SEE OR SENSE THE ORIGIN OF THOUGHTS. IM UNABLE YO CONTROL THEM. THE ONLY APPARENT CONTROL I HAVE IS THAT THE STREAM OF THOUGHTS CEASES TO EXIST AS SOON AS I REALIZE "OH HERE'S A THOUGHT". THOUGHTS JUST STOP MOMENTARILY AS LONG AS I KEEP THE AWARENESS OR BE VERY ATTENTIVE TO THEM (EXISTENCE OF THEM).

[Pallavi]

Is 'I' a thought or a thinker? Can a thought think?

[rockstar]

I appears to be a thinker. As a thinker he's experiencing thoughts and then judging situations presented by thoughts. It then acts according these judging.

[Pallavi]

Where do thoughts come from?

Please try this exercise and get back to me.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.in/2012/05/labels.html

[rockstar]

Sorry for late reply. Will do the exercise and respond.

[rockstar]

Exercise

When it asked me to write down what I am experience now, this is what I wrote down:
I hear People talking/laughing
I feel my throat as the drinking water runs down
I hear AC unit noise
I hear laptop noise
I hear my pen writing these words-noise
I Feel my feet
I feel pressure on my buttock from the chair

Labels do not affect the experience itself. Nothing changes. It seems the “I” starts interpreting what is being experienced. For example, I hear people talking but then mind comes in and says “look they are talking about so and so but it’s not true” etc. It seems there isn’t a gap between the experience and interpretation.

Experience + Interpretation by I = Story.

I do realize it sometimes but the some stories are so ingrained and I say that they are ingrained is because I sense that they keep coming back. Only time I sense that there was a “story”, is when there is a realization and at that point story is stopped because stream of thoughts has stopped.

Do these writings make sense?

[Pallavi]

:) to some extent yes.

Is it 'I' that is interpreting?

Take a look at your thoughts again.
What tells you that the stream of thoughts has stopped?

Is 'I' an entity that interprets?
What is 'I'? Why is it so deeply ingrained? What makes it so personal?

Remember owning the rock? Having it stolen made you feel bad- what makes the 'I' so personal?

[rockstar]

What tells me that the stream of thoughts has stopped?
Cannot pinpoint! Only there is a realization that repeated thoughts aren’t there but I don’t know from where that realization comes.

Is I an entity that interprets?
The interpretation seems to be coming afterwards – thoughts telling what happened. It is not an “I”.
At least nothing physical. Thoughts seem to be coming up spontaneously.

What is I? Why it is so deeply ingrained? What makes it so personal?
I is Udayan. Thoughts coming up in the head have given the impression that Udayan owns them. This gives the personality called Udayan. Udayan is made up by thoughts.

Rock – what makes the “I” so personal?
Rock was rock whether the “I” had it or not. The “I” acquired it and made it his. I don’t know why. Out of the habit?

[rockstar]

BTW, I met Elena at a retreat yesterday. It was nice seeing her and doing inquiry with her.

[Pallavi]

Is that realization also a thought?
Is it you that is realizing or is that also a thought? :)

Udayan is made up of thoughts. Thoughts come and go. Why doesn't the thought Udayan just come and go? Why does it stick?

Out of habit- yes. We try to own experience as if it was ours in the first place.
Can the rock actually be yours if you is a thought? :) Can a thought own something?
How would it be if you never owned the rock and it just sat pretty outside for you to appreciate. Just as a rock and not 'your' rock?