Why wait longer?

[hannamaria]

I answer yes to the first two questions and no to the third, no doubts at the moment at least :)

[richardcooper2k]

Here are the final questions. Treat them the same as previous questions - don't try to come up with a correct answer. Use them as a spring board for further looking and feeling. Lets see where they take us.....

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[hannamaria]

Hi Richard!

Something happened a couple of hours ago but the clarity that presented itself is now somewhat more blurry (”selfing” going on right now??)…you’ll see where it’s lacking right? But wow it’s been an intense morning!!

1) Haha no! There’s the unquestioned belief of separation, reinforced by a lot of things in society and in encounters with people. There are thoughts with words that indicate a separation, these thoughts dominate the field of experience if not seen as just another experience.

2) Somewhere along the way we learn the concept of ”I”/”me” - an experiencer/a controller in the centre of experiencing. This concept provides a ”distance” to what is directly experienced since thoughts labelling experience are believed to be the real experience. In interaction with people this illusion gets confirmed with the ”you” and ”me” in the centre of communication. Why this illusion? Don’t know.
When it starts for me is when thoughts aren’t seen to be just appearing but believed to be the voice of the experiencer. Don’t know what causes it but emotions like fear tend to stir up a lot of thoughts and quickly there’s a storyteller behind the appearing of the thoughts. More thoughts, easier to begin to believe there’s a storyteller maybe?
There can probably be further noticing of the appearance of the entering and disolving of the ”selfing”. At least it’s not up to an I’s efforts of any kind, meditating, focusing, cause there’s no one there! But maybe this should be more clear?

3 + 4)
I thought it was clear before but it’s just this morning when I sat or maybe during the walk after that this was seen: I don’t need to even let go or look or make any effort cause there’s no I that could do such a thing! I is a thought! Any letting go, looking, selfing is not decided by me cause there’s no such thing!
The ”I” looking, seeing something, reporting back was there all the time these past days just now the real looking took place. I didn’t do this, there’s seeing and there’s thoughts about doing so, that’s it.
An hour ago there were feelings of excitement, joy but also anxiety and doubt appearing now…


5)
How could I? If I’m just a string of thoughts appearing how could decisions and choices be made by these? Choices, reactions are being made in the life of Hanna but she is nowhere to be found doing them! The one seemingly choosing has always just been an inevitable/undirectable appearance of thoughts. How exactly these thoughts have gotten the possibility to rule experience is not seen.

[richardcooper2k]

Very nice Hanna
I will see if any of the other guides have any questions for you

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Hanna

Could you respond to question 3) again based on your experience in the last day (or 2 days if you respond tomorrow). To give us an idea of how things are settling down since your "intense morning" and if anything else has come up to look into ?

When there are feelings of 'doubt and anxiety' -- is there someone feeling anxious or doubtful ?

[hannamaria]

Sure Richard!

Can tell you straight off that the clarity that presented itself during that morning hasn't quite been felt since, it seems a bit slippery this thing...to be honest it's as if the "I" came back strong celebrating and everything was lost and I haven't had the time to attend to this as much as the past days but the remembering of that morning's "revelation" echoes even if there's still this illusion too...I can't remember what I saw and "convince myself" there's no self cause that all still involves the self in the centre. So what has changed, I still want to tell you I'm gonna sit with this and report back but there's that effortfull "I" again and somehow it's still very real that these are merely thoughts written down as a reaction to your responses, out of the hand of this "I". It's seen there's no "I" but there's still the illusory storytelling with a sens of there being a someone in charge of that and other happenings in life. I was about to write will this resolve itself? But of course it will! At least I won't cause a thought couldn't do that. The letting go, the sinking in with this needs to happen more don't you think?

[hannamaria]

Hi Richard!

I’m posting some more about what’s going on:

What is:
The sens there’s a self in control is still present. Along with that there’s an undoubtable seeing that this sens is not based in a real existence of this ”I”.

How can they co-excist? Illusion and truth? It might be that there can’t be a sudden change in the patterns of the brain? Just speculations, not helping…

When, why, how does the illusion appear? As soon as thoughts about the direct experience are taken to be the true experience there’s an ”I” in the middle. Who "takes thoughts to be true"? Can there be thoughts without there appearing a sens of an ”I” in everyday life?
How could an illusion reappear after having been seen through?
What indicates its’ reappearance? The ”disappearing into” stories of thoughts. Just experiencing the illusion and the imagined sens of a separated self.

The appearance/existence of the illusion is as real as whatever else but seen to be an illusion and not the real experience of life. Don’t know how this plays out from here.

What is actually different from before yesterday?
Nothing but still something hard to ”pin down”…shouldn’t just get pinned down if seen.
Less doubts about the ”I” being just thoughts? But who’s having more or less doubts? There was a seeing of an undoubtable truth so what is this doubt if not just more thoughts?

About expectations:
Want to see more clearly, permanent. Who? Who wants anything?!

I met a lot of people after having posted yesterday, this was not spoken about but the sens of separated self was as strong as ever and I don't see how you could be around people and not believe you're a separate unit? How could the truth be felt in interaction with other? What is meant with "be felt"?

The "I" gets re-introduced as soon as thoughts about truth appear giving there version of what's seen right?

[richardcooper2k]

It's seen there's no "I" but there's still the illusory storytelling with a sens of there being a someone in charge of that and other happenings in life. I was about to write will this resolve itself? But of course it will! At least I won't cause a thought couldn't do that. The letting go, the sinking in with this needs to happen more don't you think?

What is there to resolve ?
Thoughts are popping up, why would they stop ?
What has changed to make things happen differently ?

As soon as thoughts about the direct experience are taken to be the true experience there’s an ”I” in the middle

Where and what is this "I" ?

How could an illusion reappear after having been seen through?

Once a habit is recognized, does it stop, just like that ?

About expectations:
Want to see more clearly, permanent. Who? Who wants anything?!

You want control over this ?
Is that possible ?
But looking can happen any time, and what is found in experience ?

The "I" gets re-introduced as soon as thoughts about truth appear giving there version of what's seen right?

Yes, thoughts about "I" still appear

I met a lot of people after having posted yesterday, this was not spoken about but the sens of separated self was as strong as ever and I don't see how you could be around people and not believe you're a separate unit? How could the truth be felt in interaction with other? What is meant with "be felt"?

Yes, in some situations the selfing habit/thoughts come up more than others
Is this a problem ?

This all is as it is Hanna. You can embrace that or fight it......
In direct experience - can you find anything wrong ?

[hannamaria]

What is there to resolve ?
Thoughts are popping up, why would they stop ?
What has changed to make things happen differently ?

No everything is as it always has been and all is experienced. Yes why would thoughts just stop appearing just because it’s seen that that’s what they do along with the word ”I”. Things will happen as they will if there’s gonna be a change there will. It’s just a belief – thoughts – that there should be less appearing of the illusion – the story.

Where and what is this "I" ?

The thoughts labelling experience are constructed in languager to include the word ”I”/”me”. The sens that there is a controlling unit is only an unquestioned belief constructed of this learnt habit to see life through the eyes of an experiencer/doer. Fact is though that experiencing happens and labels following experience happen. All is experienced but there’s no experiencer.

Once a habit is recognized, does it stop, just like that ?

Nothing in experience sais it should no. just thoughts about how this should turn out with such a content.

You want control over this ?
Is that possible ?
But looking can happen any time, and what is found in experience ?

No it’s not possible since there’s no ”I”! When looking happens the truth of that fact presents itself to be very obvious.

Yes, in some situations the selfing habit/thoughts come up more than others
Is this a problem ?

There seems to be a possibility to be more directly experiencing meetings with other people/ have less distraction by thoughts appearing/selfing habit.

This all is as it is Hanna. You can embrace that or fight it......
In direct experience - can you find anything wrong ?

No everything is as it is…and even whether I’ll embrace or fight this isn’t up to me, cause there’s no ”me”.

[richardcooper2k]

Hey Hanna :-)

When looking happens, does it require any effort ?

[hannamaria]

no it just happens

[hannamaria]

i'm sorry for answering so shortly but I think I have to sleep now, I will answer more thoroughly tomorrow!

[hannamaria]

The looking doesn’t require any effort, can’t be run by the imagined ”I” that are just thoughts clogging up ”efforting”. Can’t say where I am (or not ☺) with this but it doesn’t seem to be quite clear, don’t you think? The motivation is still very much present even if there’s confusion in this since the efforting is seen to be just thoughts. This will have to happen as it may, ”I” can’t do anything. It's just so back and forth this...

[hannamaria]

But as you can tell the complete letting go, trusting, easing hasn't occured other than that morning and somewhat occasionally since. But the clarity that the "I" is nothing but a thought has not quite re-appeard, at least not as clear, since that morning.

[richardcooper2k]

Hi Hanna
Can you find what isn't clear or is this a feeling ?
Is there an expectation that this can be understood ?
Is there anything to get clogged up ?
What does the motivation want or is it restlessness ?
Is it just thoughts or are feelings/sensations passing through too ?

Is there anything permanent and unchanging in experience, including feelings of peace, letting go, clarity and easing (and fortunately pain and discomfort too :-)) ?

Here is a video of Adyashanti talking about the impermanence of A-ha moments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLQD90La ... e=youtu.be

Hope you've been having a good weekend

Richard