Imperium, are you ready?

[Ilona]

Please introduse yourself.
how did you find LU what do you expect from this conversation?

[Imperium]

Please introduse yourself.
how did you find LU what do you expect from this conversation?

Hi
I've been a seeker for many decades and am familiar with all the traditional & contemporary non-dual teachers and the language. I have a good intellectual understanding but not the direct experience. There's been much suffering, especially this past year (anxiety, fear, worry, rejection, loneliness) and I'm ready to know the truth.

I discovered LU though Facebook and was lead to your blog, "Marked Eternal", where I read many testimonies to this process. I can see that my expectations may be keeping me in confusion and trapped in seeking.

I want to directly experience that there is no 'me', and that Life is living itself. This is very inviting and I want to "know" this.

I will follow your lead. How do we begin?
Thank you for your kindness and availability,
Imperium

[Ilona]

Thank you very much for response. Yes, I can certainly help you through this process and all is required is for you to stay with me through this. Answer at least once a day and answer from experience, not your thinking about it.

Can you tell me, is anything lacking in this present moment?
When you feel the answer, look, is there an owner of experience? Is there a 'me' that experience is happening to and write what comes up here.

[Imperium]

Thank you very much for response. Yes, I can certainly help you through this process and all is required is for you to stay with me through this. Answer at least once a day and answer from experience, not your thinking about it.

Can you tell me, is anything lacking in this present moment?
When you feel the answer, look, is there an owner of experience? Is there a 'me' that experience is happening to and write what comes up here.

Ilona
Thank you for this opportunity. I will try to answer from my experience instead of the automatic response of coming up with an answer and hoping it's correct.
My experience is a lack of peace & joy in the present moment.
Yes, it feels like there's a 'me' behind my eyes that has to make decisions and be responsible for all the accompanying details. This always results in fear of failure, feeling rejection, inadequacy, worry & anxiety about the future, sadness & regrets about the past, etc.
I want to follow and respond to you and not ramble on so I'll stop there.
Imperium

[Ilona]

Ok, let's see. You know the question...

What comes up when you let this thought in:

I is just a thought, there is no real separate entity behind it, there is no me at all, just stories about me.
No observer, no witness, no actor, no doer, no thinker, no self as in zero.


Write what feelings arise.

[Imperium]

Ok, let's see. You know the question...

What comes up when you let this thought in:

I is just a thought, there is no real separate entity behind it, there is no me at all, just stories about me.
No observer, no witness, no actor, no doer, no thinker, no self as in zero.

Write what feelings arise.

What comes up when you let this thought in:

Ilona
What comes up is:
1) A big "YES":
I become excited and hopeful.
I want this to be so and I want to "know" this with all my heart. Little else is important at this point in time other than to know this.
I want to live the flow of Life without the psychological suffering.
I want to live without the burden of responsibility for choices and their successes or failures.
I want to know life without the incessant worrying about the future and regrets of the past.
I want to assist others in knowing what more is possible beyond what we already know.
I want Life to show me what to do, where to be, what to say and to whom.
I want to see clearly what's true.
Yet your suggestion is that there is no "I".

2) Wonder:
Is this true?
Can I also know this?
Is this as simple as Ilona suggests?

3) Doubt/Fear:
What if Ilona cannot bring me through the Gate?
What if I fail "get" what she's pointing at?
If there's something that I have to do about it... I may not get it... or I might fail.
My seeming experience has been that "I" am making decisions & choices, that "I" am a doer and that "I" am thinking these thoughts.

I am very enthused and very afraid at the same time.
Imperium

[Ilona]

Great! Thank you.

Let's start from nr 3

Fear

Can you look at the real possibility, that there is no you and call that fear up. alow it to be here and look at it, no so much the content, but the fear itself. Notice - its a mechanism that protects something from something.
Can you look what is it that needs to be protected?

What is behind the fear?

[Imperium]

Great! Thank you.

Let's start from nr 3

Fear

Can you look at the real possibility, that there is no you and call that fear up. allow it to be here and look at it, not so much the content, but the fear itself. Notice - its a mechanism that protects something from something.
Can you look what is it that needs to be protected?

What is behind the fear?

Ilona
I'm not certain what it 'protects', but it does seem to serve the purpose of keeping the "I" thought alive & well. So I guess in this sense it's protecting the "I". Keeping the sense of a separate self going.

[Imperium]

Great! Thank you.

Let's start from nr 3

Fear

Can you look at the real possibility, that there is no you and call that fear up. allow it to be here and look at it, not so much the content, but the fear itself. Notice - its a mechanism that protects something from something.
Can you look what is it that needs to be protected?

What is behind the fear?

Ilona
I'm not certain what it 'protects', but it does seem to serve the purpose of keeping the "I" thought alive & well. So I guess in this sense it's protecting the "I". Keeping the sense of a separate self going.

PS: In addition there's the protection of being in control. Something wants to claim the territory and be in control.

[Imperium]

PSS: I just felt that place where there's a fear of losing control.. like a death. I want there to be no 'me' yet I'm afraid of it.
Yuk.

[Ilona]

Very good! Fear of loosing control is a big one. Let's focus on this one today.

Lift your left arm above your head. Do it now.

Write, how did it happen, was there any control involved in this action, how decision was made?
Do it again and really focus on the controller. Can you find one?

As your day goes by, notice how external stimulus calls out your responses and reactions. Again see if you can find something that is in charge of management or all is going on on automatic.

If fear of loosing control rises again, ask it directly, what is there to protect.


Have fun with that.

[Imperium]

Very good! Fear of loosing control is a big one. Let's focus on this one today.

Lift your left arm above your head. Do it now.

Write, how did it happen, was there any control involved in this action, how decision was made?
Do it again and really focus on the controller. Can you find one?

As your day goes by, notice how external stimulus calls out your responses and reactions. Again see if you can find something that is in charge of management or all is going on on automatic.

If fear of loosing control rises again, ask it directly, what is there to protect.

Have fun with that.

Ilona
This isn't fun, it's confusing :-(
This is confusing and there’s conflicting experiences.
1) No, there doesn’t seem to be any control in how the decision was made in raising the arm. It seems like an automatic response. Lifting the arm seems to be an impulsive reaction without thinking or control... but that I allowed to happen.
2) A choice was made to allow it… which seems like a controller is present. This controller seems to be ‘me’.
As I continue to lift the arm it seems there is someone making a decision to either do it or not.

Brushing my teeth is automatic, but I'm choosing to do it. This seems to be the case in everything so far today.

I’m confused as to whether there’s a controller or not. It seems like both.
Help!
Imperium
PS; I'm in the states (east coast time).

[Imperium]

Very good! Fear of loosing control is a big one. Let's focus on this one today.

Lift your left arm above your head. Do it now.

Write, how did it happen, was there any control involved in this action, how decision was made?
Do it again and really focus on the controller. Can you find one?

As your day goes by, notice how external stimulus calls out your responses and reactions. Again see if you can find something that is in charge of management or all is going on on automatic.

If fear of loosing control rises again, ask it directly, what is there to protect.

Have fun with that.

Ilona
This isn't fun, it's confusing :-(
This is confusing and there’s conflicting experiences.
1) No, there doesn’t seem to be any control in how the decision was made in raising the arm. It seems like an automatic response. Lifting the arm seems to be an impulsive reaction without thinking or control... but that I allowed to happen.
2) A choice was made to allow it… which seems like a controller is present. This controller seems to be ‘me’.
As I continue to lift the arm it seems there is someone making a decision to either do it or not.

Brushing my teeth is automatic, but I'm choosing to do it. This seems to be the case in everything so far today.

I’m confused as to whether there’s a controller or not. It seems like both.
Help!
Imperium
PS; I'm in the states (east coast time).

Sorry, forgot to answer this part "If fear of loosing control rises again, ask it directly, what is there to protect?"
Some months ago my then longtime partner left me. Since then I experience loneliness, fear & anxiety almost constantly.
I've been investigating this and since reading some of your interactions with others I suspect the fear/loneliness I experience to be about the death of the sense of an “me/I”. All the identities I’ve incurred along the way like father, husband, man, lover, partner, provider, friend, etc. They seem to define a “me”.
As these titles/identities have fallen away, or the people/places/things that supported them left me, the sense of loneliness & fear arise. The sense of a separate self seems what's wanting to be protected.
Though I’m compelled to reveal the nonexistence of a separate self and want this more than almost anything, there’s fear. Is the underlying root fear this death, not of the body, but of the sense of an “I”… a separate self?
I'm experiencing both confusion and feeling shaky right now.

[Ilona]

i'm in uk.

ok, so you say that there seems to be controller in a form of chooser. hm. how does that choice happen? look closer here. is there a chooser or it also happens on automatic depending on previous experiences and present conditions. where is that chooser? how does it operate, how does it give permission or not? how is fear influencing the choice?

look very closely and notice, is there a gap between a chooser and choosing? what comes first, choice or thoughts about it? next time you need to choose something, observe and report.

you doing great.

The sense of a separate self seems what's wanting to be protected.
Though I’m compelled to reveal the nonexistence of a separate self and want this more than almost anything, there’s fear. Is the underlying root fear this death, not of the body, but of the sense of an “I”… a separate self?
I'm experiencing both confusion and feeling shaky right now.

nothing changes how or what is sensed. nothing dies. there is no need to protect that which does not even exist.
imagine, a batman shows up in your room, you have a fight and batman dies. whatever you imagined, nothing happened. batman never was born. same is with this separate self. it's just in imagination. it's only a drop of belief. belief in a separate self. no more.

[Imperium]

i'm in uk.

ok, so you say that there seems to be controller in a form of chooser. hm. how does that choice happen? look closer here. is there a chooser or it also happens on automatic depending on previous experiences and present conditions. where is that chooser? how does it operate, how does it give permission or not? how is fear influencing the choice?

look very closely and notice, is there a gap between a chooser and choosing? what comes first, choice or thoughts about it? next time you need to choose something, observe and report.

you doing great.

The sense of a separate self seems what's wanting to be protected.
Though I’m compelled to reveal the nonexistence of a separate self and want this more than almost anything, there’s fear. Is the underlying root fear this death, not of the body, but of the sense of an “I”… a separate self?
I'm experiencing both confusion and feeling shaky right now.

nothing changes how or what is sensed. nothing dies. there is no need to protect that which does not even exist.
imagine, a batman shows up in your room, you have a fight and batman dies. whatever you imagined, nothing happened. batman never was born. same is with this separate self. it's just in imagination. it's only a drop of belief. belief in a separate self. no more.

ok, so you say that there seems to be controller in a form of chooser. hm. how does that choice happen? look closer here. is there a chooser or it also happens on automatic depending on previous experiences and present conditions. where is that chooser? how does it operate, how does it give permission or not? how is fear influencing the choice?

Ilona
Looking at your suggestion and moving about my day, it does seem like actions are an automatic response based in previous experiences and the present conditions that re-triggered them. I didn't see this until you pointed it out. I can see this is true. In this case there is no chooser. Just automatic reactions.
So then every action is just a reaction based on some past experience !? If so then there is no chooser but just automatic (past based) reactions to a current stimulus. The fear would then also seem to also be an automatic response based in a past experience. Though it seems like there's a 'chooser', so far I can't see one.

look very closely and notice, is there a gap between a chooser and choosing? what comes first, choice or thoughts about it? next time you need to choose something, observe and report.

What I'm noticing so far is that a thought happens first then choosing happens... automatically.

nothing changes how or what is sensed. nothing dies. there is no need to protect that which does not even exist.

Are you confirming that the fear is a need to protect that which doesn't exist? And that this applies to the fear & anxiety I experience? Is it just a protection mechanism to protect a separate self?

Thank you for your encouragement. I'm feeling somewhat confused, angry & a little afraid afraid that I'm not getting this.
Imperium