Need a guide please

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nickYuan
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby nickYuan » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:38 pm

Hi Pete,
It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no "I" involved, but how is it for you when walking?
I'm thinking of all the automatic processes like breathing and blood pumping. There is a perception that breathing can be controlled, i.e. in sports, meditation, etc. but only from a concerted effort. Once that effort is done or forgotten, breathing still continues with no thought to it. I remember as a child, that first awareness of being afraid that I would suffocate if I didn't remember to breath. The adult in me says, "Aww, don't worry about it little boy." Luckily my mind was easily soon distracted with other things. Hmm, with walking. I guess not. When I run up some stairs, by the time this "I" notices and attaches itself to this activity, "I'm running up the stairs", the action has already taken place. Walking, running, seems automatic too.
How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing?
Since the start of when you and I began communicating, I've noticed that these activities just sort of happen with no thought. If let's say, I knocked my elbow against the door while doing one of these activities, I would normally have gotten pissed off for being clumsy and cursed. Now, when this happens, there is this register of action, then the onset of pain, then the non-pain or return to normality, then a recommencement of the activity. The "I" wants to be there to say "Ow that hurt, damn it". But not anymore it seems.
Is there any "I" there for any of these actions, or are they just like "automatic"?
They seem to be automatic. Sipping my hot drink, jumping away to read and respond to an email I just received, another sip.
Look to see whether, when "you" do these things there is sometimes a thought, just after that says, "I did that."
Yes I can "hear" this voice that says I drank. But sometimes, that voice isn't there at all. It comes and goes.
Are all actions "automatic"?
They seem to be. Its like when you see at a glance, maybe in an a movie, or a series of what they call cinemagraphs (http://imgur.com/a/OaCKm), life all happening with no thought to be found. There seems to be no difference between a tree losing its leaves and a couple watching a campfire. Are these humans thinking or are they just doing? In all these instances, it seems the right set of conditions have make it possible to perform whatever action they are performing. It seems that whenever there is an effort to place "thought" into these actions, there is pain and suffering in which separation is the root. I don't want to go back to that now, ever. I can probably trace all my suffering to this false "I" that has been over-thinking my entire life, even making me melancholy during times of absolute beauty, like fishing for hours in a perfect day, and never catching a fish but not caring if I do or not.
Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea “i just chose to (not) raise my right arm” come after the event itself?
No, it just happened. hahaha.,everything all around me is happening like a river just happens. Is the thinking I just an anchor in this river?
Nick

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moondog
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby moondog » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:08 pm

Hi Nick,
There is a perception that breathing can be controlled, i.e. in sports, meditation, etc. but only from a concerted effort. Once that effort is done or forgotten, breathing still continues with no thought to it.
Yes, but in direct experience, in any circumstances whatsoever, can breathing be controlled in any way? What would be making the effort? Have you experienced that? If so, what's doing the controlling? Is it a self, hitherto unseen?
Walking, running, seems automatic too
The "I" wants to be there to say "Ow that hurt, damn it". But not anymore it seems.
They seem to be automatic. Sipping my hot drink, jumping away to read and respond to an email I just received, another sip.
Q: Are all actions "automatic"? A: They seem to be.
Sorry to be picky again but I reckon you're closing in on that gate and I really want to help you nail this. You say that all of these various actions seem to be automatic. I don't think you are using the word in the following way, but I need to be absolutely sure, because seems can indicate a lack of certainty, reliance on intellect, merely a provisional acceptance that there is no "I " doing or controlling.If nothing is seen to be doing/controlling anything in direct experience, can you say a bit more about your use of the word seems.

Reflecting on all of this is fine but, if thinking it through really worked, we'd all have done it years ago. It takes LOOKING, LOOKING and more LOOKING in direct experience. That's all that works!
Since the start of when you and I began communicating, I've noticed that these activities just sort of happen with no thought
Excellent. Also great to see that:
everything all around me is happening like a river just happens. Is the thinking I just an anchor in this river?


Can you say a little more about what you mean by thoughts of "I" being "just an anchor".

Thanks for the link to the cinemagraph site. Some of them are really quite beautiful.

In return, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and freewill: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_R ... ading.html . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

To end, something about the body:

Does the body experience sensations and thought?

or

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"


P x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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nickYuan
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby nickYuan » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:50 pm

Yes, but in direct experience, in any circumstances whatsoever, can breathing be controlled in any way? What would be making the effort? Have you experienced that? If so, what's doing the controlling? Is it a self, hitherto unseen?
Again, thank you for your wisdom. There is still a level of attachment I have to controlled breathing or the act of observing the breath. Okay. So, the body is making the effort. When the breathing is slowed, it is just slowed.
Sorry to be picky again but I reckon you're closing in on that gate and I really want to help you nail this. You say that all of these various actions seem to be automatic. I don't think you are using the word in the following way, but I need to be absolutely sure, because seems can indicate a lack of certainty, reliance on intellect, merely a provisional acceptance that there is no "I " doing or controlling.If nothing is seen to be doing/controlling anything in direct experience, can you say a bit more about your use of the word seems.
Yes you are correct. Using the word seems, probably represents some level of mistrust on my part, happening somewhere, or nowhere. Rather than just accept these things as it is, there is a little sprinkling of the I, still wanting to intercede on behalf of life. They are in fact automatic when I look and look again. Whether I think about them or not, have an opinion such as "well, it seems to be" or not, all is in fact happening all at once right now. By me using the word seems, "I" will very quietly still try to intellectualize the process. Don't say "I" didn't warn you "I" would say all the right words. ;)
But, yes, I see what you are saying.
Reflecting on all of this is fine but, if thinking it through really worked, we'd all have done it years ago. It takes LOOKING, LOOKING and more LOOKING in direct experience. That's all that works!
I'm starting to feel that when you say looking, you are also saying experiencing, or just being, as in looking could be another way of the I having something to do, when in fact, there is no looking done by the I.
Can you say a little more about what you mean by thoughts of "I" being "just an anchor".
What I mean is that if life is all happening now, the thought of "I" can creep in, such as after someone accidentally steps on your foot, but they fail to realize it and apologize. You anchor yourself in the river by thinking all sorts of things about the event and that person. That person goes on living their life, perhaps sleeping that evening without a care in the world. You however go on angry, feeling a sense of a bruised ego, thinking about "oh that jerk he stubbed my toe!" Then I have in a sense, anchored myself in the river of life. Not moving with the river, but identifying with the "I" that becomes sad, or wants revenge on the toe-stubber. The result is the pressure in the rapids that builds, the ride becomes much bumpier.

Thanks for the link to the cinemagraph site. Some of them are really quite beautiful.

In return, can I ask you to have a look at the following short video clip from BBC Horizon - The Secret You on Neuroscience and freewill: http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_R ... ading.html . It demonstrates scientifically that our decisions and choices are made a full 6 seconds before we think we make them, i.e. before a thought arises saying, "I decided to do this." There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent scientific corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.
The part after the experiment where he is walking out the door was the funniest of all! I couldn't stop snickering. For the obvious reasons that he looks completely bewildered and is coming to grips. But the other thing was, he was walking out the door, really forgetting about walking out the door with his mind perhaps still back in the lab thinking about the experiment. You aren't thinking about walking, walking is just happening! I really enjoyed the idea that this "I" is an aspect of the same thing, working harmoniously, and rightfully so in keeping you alive in the world. Or wait, there is no I working harmoniously to keep you alive, that harmony has already been attained?? But beyond that, everything else is just extra. It's as if all of mankind has put value on something that never really was there in the first place. There is just action, there is just action. Action. Action. Action. Action. Typing. Typing. Typing. Typing. Yes, there is no I to be found.
To end, something about the body:
Does the body experience sensations and thought?
or
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?"
Body, entity, being, a bag of organic material with clothes piled on it, all labels for this collection. Sensations are sensations. Thoughts are thoughts. Body experiences pain, warmth, cool, more thought labels for the experience of whatever is happening. The body doesn't experience thoughts. Wonderful. I don't want to go off track here so I'll stop for now. (this one took me 10 minutes to unravel.)
~Nick

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moondog
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Re: Need a guide pleaseh

Postby moondog » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:11 pm

Hi Nick,
Okay. So, the body is making the effort. When the breathing is slowed, it is just slowed.
Yeah, when breathing slows down that's what happens, due to various conditions coming into play.

Is that what you mean when you say, " the body is making the effort"', based on direct experience, or do you have something else in mind?

Just need to be sure, that's all.
Yes you are correct. Using the word seems, probably represents some level of mistrust on my part, happening somewhere, or nowhere. Rather than just accept these things as it is, there is a little sprinkling of the I, still wanting to intercede on behalf of life. They are in fact automatic when I look and look again. Whether I think about them or not, have an opinion such as "well, it seems to be" or not, all is in fact happening all at once right now. By me using the word seems, "I" will very quietly still try to intellectualize the process. Don't say "I" didn't warn you "I" would say all the right words. ;) But, yes, I see what you are saying.
Great. And most likely thoughts won't ever go away. They are fine, nothing wrong with them, so long as you recognise them for what they are. Freedom does not mean freedom from feelings, thoughts, judgments, obsessions, or experiences. All these are part of the flow of life. Freedom consists of recognizing that all this is happening to no one.
I'm starting to feel that when you say looking, you are also saying experiencing, or just being, as in looking could be another way of the I having something to do, when in fact, there is no looking done by the I.
Exactly, by looking I've always meant experiencing, and now you are seeing this at a deeper level. Looking in direct experience is just being aware of what's happening right now. Nothing else. Can you find a "me" there at all? Can you see, as well, that there's no one looking?

I like what you say about the anchor and the river.
Or wait, there is no I working harmoniously to keep you alive, that harmony has already been attained?? But beyond that, everything else is just extra. It's as if all of mankind has put value on something that never really was there in the first place. There is just action, there is just action. Action. Action. Action. Action. Typing. Typing. Typing. Typing. Yes, there is no I to be found.
Absolutely, you see it, no "I" to be found! And I don't even think "harmony has already been attained"; it's simply inherent in the moment, better still: it is the moment! Do you see that?

Time for some sweep-up questions I reckon:

In direct experience

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?


There's quite a bit here but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. Basically, we just need to tidy up and identify anything that needs to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Great stuff Nick.

P x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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nickYuan
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby nickYuan » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:37 pm

Yeah, when breathing slows down that's what happens, due to various conditions coming into play.
I'm glad you said conditions because that is what I'm seeing. Conditions are the reason for everything happening.
Is that what you mean when you say, " the body is making the effort"', based on direct experience, or do you have something else in mind?
Yes. The body is doing what the body does. Rereading that last sentence, even that is too much to say. We understand the term "body" to be a thought construct. There is just doing. There is "no one" to make "doing" happen. There is "no one" to make "doing" happen.

Great. And most likely thoughts won't ever go away. They are fine, nothing wrong with them, so long as you recognise them for what they are. Freedom does not mean freedom from feelings, thoughts, judgments, obsessions, or experiences. All these are part of the flow of life. Freedom consists of recognizing that all this is happening to no one.
I see what you mean. Yes, that is freeing! All happening. I can see a whole range of thoughts arising (based on conditions), thoughts are there, then thoughts disappearing like smoke. But at least smoke, is something! Perhaps we can go into this topic more.
Exactly, by looking I've always meant experiencing, and now you are seeing this at a deeper level. Looking in direct experience is just being aware of what's happening right now. Nothing else. Can you find a "me" there at all? Can you see, as well, that there's no one looking?
No one is looking. There is only experience being experienced.

Absolutely, you see it, no "I" to be found! And I don't even think "harmony has already been attained"; it's simply inherent in the moment, better still: it is the moment! Do you see that?
Yes, harmony is another label we place on things that appear to be just working, as if there is anything to yet to attain. The label harmony appears to be a label that denotes that there wasn't harmony in the first place. Thank you I see that. HAHA!
In direct experience
Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?
No.
Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?
No.
Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?
No.
Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?
No.
Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?
Yes. We as humans look at our "body" or their "body" while leaves on a tree do not. The leaves do not have a thought to care if they sprout, or yellow and die.
Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?
No. The self wants to claim the sensations but can't really, only "pretend" to.
Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’
No.
Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?
No. This self isn't anywhere.

~Nick

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moondog
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby moondog » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:36 pm

Hi Nick,

That was all really clear, and no need for any smartarse remarks or queries from me for once!

We'll soon move on to the final questions but, before we do that, I'd like you to look at all of this from a different perspective; to help you to reveal to yourself, and to me, what you have seen so far during this process.

As always, from "your" direct experience:

With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?


Also:

Are you satisfied that you've seen through the illusion of a separate self? Any doubts at all?

P x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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Re: Need a guide please

Postby nickYuan » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:00 pm

Hi Pete,
Thank you. Haha, you're far from that! If anything, a kind and gentle approach has helped me open up more to seeing rather than inventing.


As always, from "your" direct experience:
With "you" revealed as a thought story, what remains?

Just life. I see happening happen all around me.
What experiences?
Life experiences.
What thinks?
Nothing. Thinking is happening.
What does?
No one does.
What is aware?
There is awareness. The conditions that exist make awareness happen.


Are you satisfied that you've seen through the illusion of a separate self? Any doubts at all?

I'm finally at peace with everything. It's as if I owned an old coat, and simply put it back in the closet. I've lost the desire to keep a strict meditation schedule, seeing that it is most medicinal. If I do, great. If I miss a session, great. Last night was the first night I meditated since revealing this matter. During the meditation, one of my dogs was itching its ear. I noticed it the first time. Then the 2nd time. A light tapping of its foot on the wooden floor above me. It started to pull me away. Normally I would have been perturbed, saying to myself, "Why is this happening to me now?" The thought started to arise and I noticed it arising. The self wanting to intercede on Nick's behalf, filling with thoughts of irritation and the grasping for judgment "but I want to meditate!". This time, there was awareness of the light tapping of his life on the wooden floor. This is happening! This is it. That is meditation enough for me.
Hmm doubts. Not really. I mean, I see that in the past, all the arguments with my wife were a result of my grasping and fueling the false I. I notice doubt arising but can easily see it for what it is.

Nick

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moondog
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby moondog » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:13 pm

Hi Nick,

Thanks for that. I'm really so happy that you've seen, and that I've been able to do my bit to help. It's brilliant!

Here are the final questions. Once I get your answers, I'll put them forward for other guides for any comments. Then I'll arrange for you to get access to various aftercare and other groups on Facebook and the LU site.

Always from direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?


Lots of love,

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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nickYuan
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby nickYuan » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:14 pm

Always from direct experience.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is merely a thought or series of thoughts based on conditions. As I see it, life is going on. The illusion appears when it tries to attach itself to things. Upon further introspection of this illusion for what is, the illusion fades into the nothing that it has always been.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
When this is known, the sense of bondage is recognized in all manner of things, and then easily cast aside. I see that I was walking in the darkness of this illusion, a slave to its whim. I had knowledge from past teachings but this particular knowledge wasn't seen. Now, I'm understanding what all those past teachings were referring to. There is a freshness.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I think you had a big part in this, suggesting to me to look and then look again. I looked into everything I have done this week, no matter the event or task, and I saw. Haha, I'm still seeing!
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
No. Life just happens. The "I" can no longer paint a false picture for me, clouding my vision of what is truly happening.
6) Anything to add?
Thank you Pete. Nothing more to add. I feel there is nothing more to be said! You know what I mean?!

~Nick

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moondog
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby moondog » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:42 pm

Hi Nick,

I'm happy to say that the guides are happy and satisfied.

I'll get on with getting you turned blue. Here's a link for LU for those freshly through viewforum.php?f=6

It's been a real pleasure doing the pointing for you here.

Love,

Pete
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

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moondog
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Re: Need a guide please

Postby moondog » Fri Jul 26, 2013 11:52 pm

Oh, and a quick ps Nick, can you let me have your Facebook name, if any, for aftercare groups etc.

P x
'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'


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