Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

[Gomi]

Dearest 'Benny', tears are rolling down this one's eyes. Beautiful!!!! Heart's melting. Does it feel like you have experienced a shift? It seems like it to this one. Just need to hear it from you. If not let's investigate further. Are there areas that are still sticking points?

If there is a shift, i would like to ask' you' some final questions to see if you have SEEn through the illusion of self. These questions are not as a test to grade you. This is to make sure that you have SEEn. Let's make sure there aren't other areas that we should look at.

First, want to address this quote from the last post:

My experience is that identification continues to happen most of the time. There is some weight lifted, but whether things will still feel lighter when there is a more depressive or worrisome state, I don't know. So long as there is identification, there will be suffering. And it is the more negative states that stick more.

.
This pointer came up on one of the threads on the LU Facebook. Laughter arose.
Thought of 'you' immediately!!!

"Why should selfing stop happening ? Is there anyone who could stop it ?" :-)

These are the questions:
(Feel free to do a couple or all of them at one sitting. There is no rush.)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Much love,
Gomi

[Tao]

Hi Gomi

Dearest 'Benny', tears are rolling down this one's eyes. Beautiful!!!! Heart's melting. Does it feel like you have experienced a shift? It seems like it to this one. Just need to hear it from you. If not let's investigate further. Are there areas that are still sticking points?

It feels more like I have experienced a few subtle shifts along the way. There was a subtle shift yesterday but I still feel like there may be sticking points. There seems to be, like I say, less worry about worry, and more of a carefree feeling. Stories are more apparently stories than they were before, even though they still stick most of the time, the world doesn't weigh so much. Mild to moderate fear is becoming more enjoyable than frightening.

There are still areas that seem a little unclear.

The story always appears to match up. One 'chooses' to meditate, and awareness increases. Awareness alters daily living, brings one to realization. It appears that the 'I' helped the SEEing? Did the SEEing just occur? Did the story match it all up? How is it that, that which appears to choose, chooses its way toward SEEing? Was there really, NO choice?

How is it that awareness changes / improves the story so much? And is there any control over awareness?

One may be walking along, and a thought of the hand appears. Another thought then decides the eyes will look down at the hand, and there it is, the hand, as the initial thought predicted, not exactly the same, but pretty similar. How is it that thoughts can roughly predict what experience will be?

Thoughts expect to see a body, that looks very similar to the one it assumes to be the self, when one looks in the mirror. And there it is, not exactly as imagined, but pretty similar.

These are the questions:
(Feel free to do a couple or all of them at one sitting. There is no rush.)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. There only ever appeared to be. Thoughts that arise of their own arising make up the appearance.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Thoughts appear, and create an appearance that relates everything to self and other, and how other may affect self, and how self may affect other. Thoughts are images that appear, and there is an ASSUMPTION that there is a subject-object relationship going on, in which 'I' (the body) is the subject, and everything 'outside' of the body is objective.

Where this assumption comes from, and how such an illusion is possible is not understood.

Thoughts arise with no controller making them arise. They appear as if from nowhere, and go back into nowhere. They cannot be stopped or changed. If there is an appearance that they can be changed, then that is just from a previous thought that, too, arose by itself. It is the thoughts that make up an appearance of self.

There is an aliveness, and a 'present'ness. Thoughts create an appearance that this 'aliveness' is contained with the body (subject) and that everything outside is not felt unless it comes into contact in some way with the body.

Needing more time :)

Benny

[Gomi]

Benny, dear,
Noticing the sticky points are important. They just show us areas to inquiry further about. Let's address them first before you answer the final questions. We want to leave no stone unturned. Love the honesty.

Stories are more apparently stories than they were before, even though they still stick most of the time.

So that there is clarity. What are stories? Are they real once SEEn thru? Be exact...find the absolute location of where it sticks and proof that it sticks most of the time. Back up your statements. DE gives proof in the moment, so find the proof that the stories stick and to what do they stick. PROOF! No more fluff! Can a suggestion of water in a desert quench a persons thirst? LOOK! Please answer.

Mild to moderate fear is becoming more enjoyable than frightening.

Can stories be stories in degrees or are they just stories? By saying this, is this DE or analysis? In DE there is only present moment. What can be compared to what if one is in the moment?! Is this whole statement mental storyland? Stay in direct experience and share what this looks actually looks like. Keep returning to DE when habitual stuff gets recycled. Please answer.

One 'chooses' to meditate, and awareness increases. Awareness alters daily living, brings one to realization. It appears that the 'I' helped the SEEing? Did the SEEing just occur? Did the story match it all up? How is it that, that which appears to choose, chooses its way toward SEEing? Was there really, NO choice?

OK, you are going round robin. Total spinning!!! Bring this into Direct Experience and answer these questions from there. Enuf of this mental ----! Look from DE. Please answer this in tomorrow's post.

How is it that awareness changes / improves the story so much? And is there any control over awareness?

You cannot get a mental answer! You will never get out of this rut thru analysis!!! Please take this into Direct Experience!!! If awareness IS, period...how can awareness ever increase or decrease? Please get the living answer for this as well and write down what arose.

How is it that thoughts can roughly predict what experience will be?

Do you remember that YouTube ' BBC Horizon The Secret You' where they were able to tell what action would occur 6 sec before it was actually thought of? You might want to watch this again.

Gomi

[Tao]

So that there is clarity. What are stories? Are they real once SEEn thru?

They are imaginings, thought chains. Once the stories are SEEn then it is known that it is not real, but imagination.

Be exact...find the absolute location of where it sticks and proof that it sticks most of the time. Back up your statements. DE gives proof in the moment, so find the proof that the stories stick and to what do they stick. PROOF! No more fluff! Can a suggestion of water in a desert quench a persons thirst? LOOK! Please answer.

No you're right, they do not stick to anything. They come and they pass away. There is this 'lost in thought' thing though. This is a point of uncertainty. It is an unconsciousness. Once seen that there was lost in thought, there is consciousness, there is an arising from thought.

It's like, attention goes there fully, enters into the thoughts and lives within the story whilst it is playing. Most of the day, attention is in the stories that are playing out and there is no SEEing them as stories. There is a being lost within stories.

It appears to be that there is a strong fascination. An unexplainable obsession with mental objects which creates a constant pull of attention towards mental objects. It appears to take a lot of effort, to focus, to redirect attention to LOOKing, rather than the unconsciousness of being lost in thought.

There is this apparent effort made, to focus attention, without which attention would wander. So it is not an 'I', but an unfolding process. So the story of 'I' appears to be looking, but this story leads to SEEing, so it should not be disregarded, even though it can be known there is no 'I'.

There is a sense of no need to do anything.

Mild to moderate fear is becoming more enjoyable than frightening.

Can stories be stories in degrees or are they just stories? By saying this, is this DE or analysis? In DE there is only present moment. What can be compared to what if one is in the moment?! Is this whole statement mental storyland? Stay in direct experience and share what this looks actually looks like. Keep returning to DE when habitual stuff gets recycled. Please answer.

Yes mental storyland, although it appeared that habitual responses were changing. I suppose that is analysis. :D

[Gomi]

Hi there!

Needing some clarity as to where to take the inquiry further. Want to get at the heart of where you say there are still sticking points.

No you're right, they do not stick to anything. They come and they pass away.

Is this true for 'you'? The only operable thing here is in 'your' Direct Experience?'

Does this resonate within you? This IS IT!'. Just SEE that the Real, IS the current experiencing, WHATEVER it is. There is NO possible way of changing it, as it is already past the moment it is thought about. TOTAL acceptance of THIS, is another key to not getting sucked into story that suggests that if could or might have been different.

It appears to be that there is a strong fascination. An unexplainable obsession with mental objects which creates a constant pull of attention towards mental objects.

Is there something wrong with what is occurring in DE? What would it be like if it was 'just what was so' in the moment? Period. Can you see that labeling it attachment/obsession is simply a story with emotional energy feeding into it? A make wrong. What if the mental objects were treated like a passing show...no meaning. They just appear till they move on? Simply return to DE. Is there thinking that certain thought should not be in DE? Can anything actually 'block' experience? Can ANYTHING occur...even if there is a sense of being blocked for the moment? :-) With the chuckling exercise, things are just Recognized. So thought arises. So what? Is there an expectation that a pull of attention towards mental objects will disappear? What can make this disappear? Why should it disappear? Have you ever really successfully controlled it over 30 years?

There is a sense of no need to do anything.

This could possibly come from 2 vantage points. Is this resignation? or The Recognition of having an issue with being lost in story occurs but it simply get's worked out. No need to do anything. Is this enuf to make you drop it? How bout experimenting with actually DOING nothing. Just observing. (for 24 hours) Please post what the DE is for this.

It appears to this one, that you have SEEn thru the illusion of no-self. Please prove or disprove the statement "i have not SEEn?" If it is felt that you can prove it, maybe there is a lingering need to hold onto something. Is there some habitual conditioning going on? Is it automatically replaying something that is keeping the belief in place that you have NOT SEEn? If so, what is that something? Is there a payoff for keeping this belief in place? Is there a fear hanging around? No need to go into deep analysis. Simply the Recognition. What is it telling you? Protecting? What part of it is REAL? Just throwing out somethings to see if anything 'sticks'. :-)

Much love,
Gomi

PS. Also, just want to give you a heads up. I will be on vacation 7/23-8/9. There will be extremely limited access to the Internet. I have spoken to a guide who is willing to pinch hit for me til i return. Would you be interested? It is always good to keep up the momentum. If you have gone thru the gate before i return :-) , just know we can become friends on Facebook. i would be available to you if you wish.

[Gomi]

Rereading the last post..the question was phrased incorrectly. (There is no 'I" to see.) It is more' The illusion of the false self has been SEEn through." In 'your' direct experience is this true or false?

[Tao]

Hi Gomi :)

Needing some clarity as to where to take the inquiry further. Want to get at the heart of where you say there are still sticking points.
Is this true for 'you'? The only operable thing here is in 'your' Direct Experience?'

To be honest, I'm not sure. It may well just be conditioning that is throwing me. I can see that thoughts do not stick now. There is, attention being drawn towards thought though.

Does this resonate within you? This IS IT!'. Just SEE that the Real, IS the current experiencing, WHATEVER it is. There is NO possible way of changing it, as it is already past the moment it is thought about. TOTAL acceptance of THIS, is another key to not getting sucked into story that suggests that if could or might have been different.

Yes, I can see that experience right NOW is all there is, and that includes the thoughts that arise and pass away. I can see that the past and future only exist within the content of thoughts, that are always arising only in the present moment. TOTAL acceptance is another matter. It is seen that any resistance to what IS, is completely futile, even crazy, but that doesn't stop conditioning and old habits doing what they do.

Is there something wrong with what is occurring in DE? What would it be like if it was 'just what was so' in the moment? Period. Can you see that labeling it attachment/obsession is simply a story with emotional energy feeding into it? A make wrong. What if the mental objects were treated like a passing show...no meaning.They just appear till they move on? Simply return to DE. Is there thinking that certain thought should not be in DE? Can anything actually 'block' experience? Can ANYTHING occur...even if there is a sense of being blocked for the moment? :-) With the chuckling exercise, things are just Recognized. So thought arises. So what?

Well, chuckling only occurs when thoughts are recognized. From a point of recognition, thoughts do what they like and there is no problem. It is the lack of recognition for a lot of the day that feels like there is something to be done, a chipping away at conditioning, a cultivation of awareness - but this too is all part of the story - it's just that it feels relevant.

Is there an expectation that a pull of attention towards mental objects will disappear? What can make this disappear? Why should it disappear? Have you ever really successfully controlled it over 30 years?

Yes a slight expectation, or maybe a hope at least that IDENTIFICATION with story will diminish or fall away.

This could possibly come from 2 vantage points. Is this resignation? or The Recognition of having an issue with being lost in story occurs but it simply get's worked out. No need to do anything. Is this enuf to make you drop it? How bout experimenting with actually DOING nothing. Just observing. (for 24 hours) Please post what the DE is for this.

Well yes, a sense that there is no pressure, spiritually, that the only thing to DO, is observe, everything else takes care of itself.

It appears to this one, that you have SEEn thru the illusion of no-self. Please prove or disprove the statement "i have not SEEn?" If it is felt that you can prove it, maybe there is a lingering need to hold onto something. Is there some habitual conditioning going on? Is it automatically replaying something that is keeping the belief in place that you have NOT SEEn? If so, what is that something? Is there a payoff for keeping this belief in place? Is there a fear hanging around? No need to go into deep analysis. Simply the Recognition. What is it telling you? Protecting? What part of it is REAL? Just throwing out somethings to see if anything 'sticks'. :-)

It seems to be conditioning and expectations where the blocks are. I feel the illusion has been seen through, but there were no fireworks, and there seems to be little change to habits and identification with story. It is totally recognized that 'Benny' is a story. That doesn't stop 'me' living as Benny whilst conditioning and identification is there. There is still a strong sense of 'ME' most of the time.

PS. Also, just want to give you a heads up. I will be on vacation 7/23-8/9. There will be extremely limited access to the Internet. I have spoken to a guide who is willing to pinch hit for me til i return. Would you be interested? It is always good to keep up the momentum. If you have gone thru the gate before i return :-)

Ok sure why not!

just know we can become friends on Facebook. i would be available to you if you wish.

Great!

Benny

[Tao]

This could possibly come from 2 vantage points. Is this resignation? or The Recognition of having an issue with being lost in story occurs but it simply get's worked out. No need to do anything. Is this enuf to make you drop it? How bout experimenting with actually DOING nothing. Just observing. (for 24 hours) Please post what the DE is for this.

To add to this. It is a sense that everything is taking care of itself. There is less worry arising in regard to spiritual 'practice'. That things will continue as they are, and that things are unfolding by themselves.

[Gomi]

It seems to be conditioning and expectations where the blocks are. I feel the illusion has been seen through, but there were no fireworks, and there seems to be little change to habits and identification with story. It is totally recognized that 'Benny' is a story. That doesn't stop 'me' living as Benny whilst conditioning and identification is there. There is still a strong sense of 'ME' most of the time.

Here is an exercise to do. Try to do it several times.

What is needed:
Table, chair, several books, candle, match, and either a blank wall, solid cloth or board for a backdrop.

Setting it up:

Sit in front of a desk or a table. Place a candle on the table. If there isn't a blank wall, place cardboard behind the candle so your vision is able to rest only on the lit candle, not pictures, windows, etc. You will want to sit in front of the candle, so that the flame of the candle is at eye level, an arms length away. Use books to adjust the height of the candle so it is at eye level. Once set up, darken the room. Shut the lights, close the blinds, etc.

1. Sit with your eyes open and focus gently at the flame for around 3 minutes. It might be comfortable to sit with your hands resting gently on your lap.Try not to focus with intense concentration. Gently observe the flame. Thoughts will go in and out. Sounds will be heard. It is perfectly fine for this to happen. It is OK to just observe the flame alone and/or have the flame and thoughts come into play. If you just notice thoughts without the image, gently bring your attention back to the flame.
2. Close your eyes for another 3 minutes. Gently observe. Do you notice the after-image of the flame? Mentally place the image of the flame in between your eyes. Remember, it is OK to see the image, it is OK to have thoughts and the image. When it is just thoughts, gently return to the image. When the image seems to have disappeared, wait and see if it returns. When it has fully disappeared, open your eyes.
3. Repeat this process twice.
If you have time, try it a couple of times within the next 24 hours.

What do you notice in DE?
What happens as you watch the image as thoughts and feelings appear?
Did you have to DO anything or did the after-image just appear on it's own?
Are thoughts, feelings, body sensations etc. abiding IN Presence or is there a separation of these occurrences from Presence when conditioning occurs?
Is there identification anywhere? If so, where is the location in Direct Experience?
Watching the after-image, remaining as Presence... Conditioning and identification arising in the mind, treating them as thoughts. Watching the flame... Is Presence 'IS'ing?
Please write what was Directly Experienced.

but there were no fireworks

Fireworks begin and end. Does Presence?

Love,
g

[Gomi]

Hi Benny,

Hubbie and i were just given tickets to attend a great concert tomorrow nite. We will be leaving the house 3:30 Central Standard Time. If you post early, possibly i can respond. Post regardless of time, however. It's important to keep the process going.

If i don't have a chance to respond, i want to address a couple of areas you wrote about in one of your posts.

... TOTAL acceptance is another matter.

Acceptance will or will not occur. You cannot force it. Expectations causing the lack of acceptance, however, can be SEEn for what it is.

Also, check this out. It speaks of expectations of 'fireworks' once the illusion of the false self is SEEn: http://vince-wisingup.blogspot.com.au/2 ... nment.html

The guide who will be working with you til i return is vince schubert. (This link is actually on vince's blog site.)Vince was 'my' guide and mentor. 'My story about him' is that what comes thru the vehicle of vince is filled with love and wisdom. 'Total story'...and i am sticking to it :-)

If i don't hear from you before i leave, have a good couple of weeks.

Much love,
g

[Tao]

Hey Gomi,

Thank you for the exercise and the link. It is morning here so haven't done them yet. Looking forward to working with Vince too.

Have a great vacation, and concert too!

Benny

[Tao]

Hi Gomi, or Vince, :)

There was another subtle shift today, in relation to the exercise. I have not yet had a chance to do the exercise as it is, but the questions were looked at.

There is a noticing of identification with story, followed with a thought that says something like 'Ha, I noticed that story, isn't it funny?'. Today the question arose, what witnesses even this thought? And then, what even witnesses the thought that says 'what witnesses even this thought'.

In that sense, there is a realizing presence. There is a seeing that presence is always there and not removed. There is a loss of conscious attention during identification with thought. Conscious attention gets lost in thought, but there is no loss of presence.

Perhaps identification is the wrong word. It is like conscious attention is fascinated with thought and therefore gets absorbed or hypnotized by it.

The supposed controller of thoughts, the supposed controller, is itself just another thought, that is identified with, that is believed. Yet even this is witnessed, even this is within presence. In that sense there is ONLY experience. There is not self and other. There IS.

What observes even the observer? What witnesses the listener hearing sounds? Hearing sounds is a concept, all part of experience itself.

It is now seen that there is only experience, this was a sticking point. There can only be experience.

That which cannot be found is that which cannot be named. It is not a thing, but every'thing' arises from it.

[Gomi]

Can't write, getting ready to leave...but... there is a huge, huge smile on my face!!!!
Yes! Yes! Yes!!!

(Don't think you are going to give vince a run for his money!) :-)

Much love, hon,
Gomi

[vinceschubert]

Morning Benny.
Yes, you are displaying insight.
How does it feel ?
How does it feel to SEE that there isn't an actual, separate I running the show ?
How does it feel to Know that what is Real for Benny, is confined to Experiencing, and that ALL thought content is conceptual ?
Do you have expectations for how this (liberation) will be in the future ?

love

vince

[Tao]

Hi Vince,

Thank you for your guidance! It is bed-time here so i will post tomorrow.

Benny