Kristian's thread

[Damon Kamda]

If you're ready to start this exploration of experience, post here and we'll get going.

[kristian]

hello, i would gladly accept your invitation of guidance.

[Damon Kamda]

Hi Kristian,

Great. Let's begin with a straightforward question: what brings you here- what do you expect of this? Tell me a little but about yourself and your story...

Thanks!

[kristian]

ok. so my story thats relative to me showing up here is as follows... i read the book siddhartha by hermann hesse when i was sixteen and that initiated a longing to find this enlightenment "thing". i read many books on religions, trying to understand the essence, practiced some yoga, many years of tai chi and qi gong, taoism, my latest attempt was my stay in tiruvannamalai in india for 1.5 years (2 years ago) getting into advaita and self inquiry, vipassana meditation. quite possibly if i had just stuck with only one of these techniques and seen it through to the end i would have gotten the pot of gold. but apparently that wasnt my path so i had to do a bit of shopping around first! my interests in spirituality have become more and more theoretically abstract and subtle, and so finally i arrived on this blog. i have now come to a point where i am tired of collecting theories, concepts, experiences, etc. i hear the truth of others and it rings clear like a bell in my ears (its always the same message but worded differently) but its not in my abiding direct experience and so naturally i am still searching.
my mind expects things like peace, trust, bliss, unconditional-inpersonal love, and many other lovely sounding descriptions read about from others. i can honestly say that i am still identified with this body and these thoughts and feelings. although the grip has loosened considerably, the identification to this and my story are still there. i hope this may give you a general idea of where i stand at present...

[Damon Kamda]

Hi Kristian,

Thanks for the introduction.

my interests in spirituality have become more and more theoretically abstract and subtle, and so finally i arrived on this blog. i have now come to a point where i am tired of collecting theories, concepts, experiences, etc.

It's great that you recognize this, as it will save you a lot of time.

So, the approach we take here is quite simple. I'm going to ask you questions and you examine your experience to give me an answer. Instead of consulting speculative reasoning, you report what you find in direct experience (which includes thoughts, feelings, sensations etc.).

Let's begin by taking a look at the expectations you listed:

my mind expects things like peace, trust, bliss, unconditional-inpersonal love, and many other lovely sounding descriptions read about from others

Yes, that sounds lovely and all.
Now please forget about these for a moment.
They may or may not be by-products of awakening, yet we are not going to be looking for these kinds of symptoms.

As a matter of fact, we're not going to look for any kind of state, experience or feeling. What I'd like to invite you to do is simply look at what is already the case right now.

i can honestly say that i am still identified with this body and these thoughts and feelings. although the grip has loosened considerably, the identification to this and my story are still there. i hope this may give you a general idea of where i stand at present...

Ok, you're diving straight into it, that's great.

Identification with the body, thoughts and feelings.

Interesting notion- let's take a closer look.

What is identification exactly? How does this work in reality? Can you describe this in detail- what happens when you are identified with the body, thoughts and feelings?

[kristian]

thats intersting that you mention that because now that i look at it, perhaps "grip" hasnt loosened at all but merely shifted itself... ok, i experience the identification as thoughts arising and some of them have more emotional value or investment than others. this i could describe as being the identification to the thoughts and feelings. for example my relationship recently ended, and so every time my ex gilfriends name arises as a thought a strong sensation of unease is experienced in my chest or stomach. this is accompanied with more thoughts and sensations. perhaps the emotions/feelings are actually just a combination of thoughts and sensations experienced in the body... so anyway, this process draws my full attention to it and is experienced as my focus moves involuntarily into my head and the part of my body that is triggered (chest, stomach, etc.). i do watch these things happen and even when it becomes very painful and overwhelming there is still an oberserving of it taking place.
i try to practice mindfullness (simply sensing my body and surroundings without labeling or judging) as much as possible during my day, so i experience the difference of being "open" in awareness to getting caught up in the mind as previously described.

[Damon Kamda]

Ok, so identification is thoughts arising, some of which have more emotional value or investment and ask for more attention than other ‘non-identified’ thoughts?

That’s actually a very nice description, kristian.

Now let’s zoom in a little further.

The notion of identification commonly understood presupposes two elements: something being identified with (in this case: thoughts, feelings) and someone doing the identification.

You’ve got a good lock on one half of the equation, now can you look at the other half: the one doing the identification?

[kristian]

ok. i actually can't locate anything now that i am really trying to find something. and i don't want to give some cliche answers... maybe i need some more time to deepen this or to look more intensely? its as if when i am thinking, i am my thoughts and when i'm not thinking i am no-thoughts.

[Damon Kamda]

ok. i actually can't locate anything now that i am really trying to find something. and i don't want to give some cliche answers... maybe i need some more time to deepen this or to look more intensely?

Yes, by all means, take your time to properly look, with focus, at what is actually happening here, instead of giving the first answer that comes to mind.

its as if when i am thinking, i am my thoughts and when i'm not thinking i am no-thoughts

What is the I that is thoughts one moment, and no-thoughts the next?

[kristian]

ok. i'll continue digging... ;-)

[Damon Kamda]

Great!

Let me know what you find (if anything)...

[kristian]

ok, so in the previous post i looked trying to locate the "identifier" (the one who is identified with the mind) and realised that there was nothing there- just the thoughts and then when the thoughts stopped, no-thouhgts. the happening/awareness of this, i supposed was the "i". it was quite a suprise to find that actually there was no distance between the thoughts and the thinker/perciever. none that was percievable anyway.
so being that i have not had much reflection time due to a busy schedule today, i was really trying to get this question figured out on my bus ride to work: where is the "identifier", this "i" that is supposedly living this life? so i was searching, trying to look behind the mind, and the thought came up that i am stupid for looking for an "i" when it is not even there! this struck me as very funny and caused a whole little experience of joy and complete peace, a bit of pressure in the head, and a lot more focus for quite a few hours. the thoughts that came were just thoughts. there was no "i" to identify with them. i kept looking for something to cling onto the thoughts and feelings, nothing was actually there though. now its a few hours later and the experience is still relevant. probably need a bit of time to see where this experience is going.

[Damon Kamda]

Ok, kristian, you're doing great- this is exactly what we mean with properly looking. Keep going.

Now take it out of the cognitive realm and bring it down to pure experiencing and keep the focus.

Let it happen.

Can you find any separation at all?

[kristian]

ok. let me get back to you tomorrow. by the way- thank you sooooooooooooo much for the kind support.

[Damon Kamda]

You're very welcome!