Hi, guide needed:-)

[PeterCs]

Good afternoon, Silvia!

Here are my answers:

What is real in fact? Everything what is seen, felt, experienced right now even if it is a crazy thought, hallucination? I only want to answer your questions honestly as much as possible.

What is real; that which cannot be denied. Simple. Look, right now, in your experience what is it that cannot be argued with or denied?

It is the presence - …watching the screen of monitor now, writing, reading words, hearing sounds, hearing birds, feeling some parts of body, thoughts coming up and going away, voice in the head speakin, …noticing what is happening now. All of this cannot be denied.

Where in the body does it ( "I" presence) manifest?

It manifests in head. It is like an operating center. It seems to be somewhere behind eyes. The other parts of body are felt, but the center of “I” is in head and all feelings from “I” are run down through the body.

What does it feel like?

Like a thought that seems it runs everything. Like the very first thought on the screen. Watching, hearing, sensations, feelings… are happening but at the same time there is a voice “I”, “I”, “I”…but not always. In the past it happened many times that I was watching TV for several minutes or hours and suddenly it came up in head “I” am watching. It seemed “I” was forgotten for a while, but later it poped-up again.

Does this feeling of me-ness ever move to different parts of the body?

No. Only different feelings are felt in different parts of the body.

The body does not stop breathing, moving; watching, hearing, sensing… does not go away when I not paying attention. I am 100% sure about that!

What does this tell you about the self?

Rationally, it says this: Self does not exist or if it is exists, it is for sure, it has not a crucial impact on the body.

What about attention? Do you control or direct attention? Explore this then write.

I am not sure about that. Could you give a guide how to “explore” or test it, please?

What happens to the emotions excitement and fear when you drop the labels "excitement" "fear"?

No change. They will remain the same, only labels (words) were dropped.

Rg.,

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello Peter,

Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I didn't get home till 11 last night and then work this morning.
I hope you had a nice weekend and that you kept investigating. Remember this is your own process! My pointers may help (or not!) but this is all about your own experience and you don't need me for that. Also feel free to write more than once even if I haven't had time to reply to you yet.

It is the presence - …watching the screen of monitor now, writing, reading words, hearing sounds, hearing birds, feeling some parts of body, thoughts coming up and going away, voice in the head speakin, …noticing what is happening now. All of this cannot be denied.

Good noticing Peter. So your direct experience is real and undeniable. The labels we give to that experience will change depending on language, conditioning, cultural environment, society, etc, etc.. You can say a table is made of solid mass or atoms or energy or God or even a dream but the direct, RAW, experience of the "thing" in front of you is real and cannot be denied.

Now, I just said "in front of you", but is there any separation between direct experience of the table and the table?

Is there a you standing separately from a thing called table or is there just experience, which the mind labels as "me" and "table" for communication purposes?

It manifests in head. It is like an operating center. It seems to be somewhere behind eyes. The other parts of body are felt, but the center of “I” is in head and all feelings from “I” are run down through the body.

So you can feel this operating center behind the eyes. But if you can feel it, how can it be you? Are you in control of this operating centre? Or is it just a label for a sensation behind your eyes that the mind identifies as me or me-operating centre?

How can feelings and sensations be the I? If you poke yourself in the arm is the resulting sensation "you" or just sensation? And if it's "you", how comes you have no control over it?

Like a thought that seems it runs everything. Like the very first thought on the screen. Watching, hearing, sensations, feelings… are happening but at the same time there is a voice “I”, “I”, “I”…but not always. In the past it happened many times that I was watching TV for several minutes or hours and suddenly it came up in head “I” am watching. It seemed “I” was forgotten for a while, but later it poped-up again.

You're getting really close Peter. Ok, so where does the "I" go when you forget about it? Can you see the irony of this question? "you" disappear when "you" forget about "you"? :-) And if you disappear how can you remember to think of you? It doesn't make any sense does it?

Can you see that "I" is just a label (thought)?

What about attention? Do you control or direct attention? Explore this then write.

I am not sure about that. Could you give a guide how to “explore” or test it, please?

Ok, so just sit doing nothing for a while, let your mind wander, your eyes move about the room.. what happens to the attention? Is there a "you" in control of it? or does it just land here and there, concentrates then expands..

Is attention the same as awareness?

What happens to the emotions excitement and fear when you drop the labels "excitement" "fear"?

No change. They will remain the same, only labels (words) were dropped.

When you don't label something fear, isn't there a loosening of the experience? Is there less fear of the fear?

You're doing well Peter. I can tell you're really looking. Keep going. You're closer than you think

Much love
Silvia x

[PeterCs]

Hi Silvia,

thanks for your reply. I will go trough your question and keep investigating. I am back to you soon.

Peter

[PeterCs]

I am back...

…is there any separation between direct experience of the table and the table?

No. It is one and the same. It is confusing. Am I going mad? Thoughts pop up and try to explain it this way: the experience includes the table. …but it seems to be untrue when there is a sudden look at a “thing”. In fact there is no thing but also there is one. It is really real or someone is going crazy:-) or just using fantasy? It does not matter because it is obvious that there is not separation between “looking at table” experience and the table; hearing sounds and sounds.

Is there a you standing separately from a thing called table or is there just experience, which the mind labels as "me" and "table" for communication purposes?

There is an automatic reaction: ME here – TABLE over there, BODY here – TABLE over there. I need to investigate the “ME” part.

So you can feel this operating center behind the eyes. But if you can feel it, how can it be you? Are you in control of this operating centre? Or is it just a label for a sensation behind your eyes that the mind identifies as me or me-operating centre?

Good question:-). I would say that I do it, I do everything, I experience those things… I am simply a HERO! …but reading that it sounds more like a story. Once upon a time… Haha:-) This needs to be investigated a bit more because still the feeling/sensation of ME there.

How can feelings and sensations be the I? If you poke yourself in the arm is the resulting sensation "you" or just sensation? And if it's "you", how comes you have no control over it?

It is sure, if arm is poked, a sensation comes up. It is undeniable. …but still there is something saying “I”, “ME” like a shadow of that experience. It is not tangible.

Where does the "I" go when you forget about it?

No clue about the destination:D

Can you see the irony of this question? "you" disappear when "you" forget about "you"? :-) And if you disappear how can you remember to think of you? It doesn't make any sense does it?

It makes sense, only you don’t look directly! I am kidding:P Me disappear when me forget about me. It is sounds like a zen koan:-) I will medidate about that. …again kidding. ..the “I” sense comes back as a thought does. It pops up from nowhere like a good inventive idea. It comes out of the blue.

Can you see that "I" is just a label (thought)?

Intelectual understanding of that is there, but the realization still missing. I have read and heard many times “I” is just a label (thought). BTW, if it is a label, then it is a label of what? What is labeled in fact?

Ok, so just sit doing nothing for a while, let your mind wander, your eyes move about the room.. what happens to the attention? Is there a "you" in control of it? or does it just land here and there, concentrates then expands..

It is going on its own, but focusing on something brings the feeling of a do-er. An example: I will look at the picture very focused on it for 5 minutes. …I have just tried it. Impossible. Looking was there but the attention went away because of hearing “She’s like the wind…” song from outside of the window:D

Is attention the same as awareness?

What do you mean with awareness? …just to be on the same page.

When you don't label something fear, isn't there a loosening of the experience? Is there less fear of the fear?

I would say there is the same feeling of fear but I think, it needs to be tested in real situation. Do you have any idea how to do that? I do not want to wait until I will meet a drunk man on the street again:-) …perhaps watching a horror movie at night would be helpful.

I do not know why but laugh has come several times while answering the questions.

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Peter

No. It is one and the same. It is confusing. Am I going mad? Thoughts pop up and try to explain it this way: the experience includes the table. …but it seems to be untrue when there is a sudden look at a “thing”. In fact there is no thing but also there is one. It is really real or someone is going crazy:-) or just using fantasy? It does not matter because it is obvious that there is not separation between “looking at table” experience and the table; hearing sounds and sounds.

Great noticing! :-) No there is not separation but yes, for all intents and purposes there is still a table there.

Have you ever seen The Table?. The Table is the idea that your mind has created based on experience of contact with objects that share similar qualities and functions. It's very useful in everyday life. You can say I want to buy a table, instead of I want to buy a flat surface supported on 4 legs.. etc. But beyond the thought/idea table is there A Table? Is there anything other than experience/This?

It's the same with everything else! Check for yourself! What is there beyond the labels "seeing" and "me" and "table"?

Beyond the label/thought I, what is there?

Good question:-). I would say that I do it, I do everything, I experience those things… I am simply a HERO! …but reading that it sounds more like a story. Once upon a time… Haha:-) This needs to be investigated a bit more because still the feeling/sensation of ME there.

Just remember that is not about trying to get rid of this feeling/sensation of ME. It's about seeing it for what it is.
So which is it, is it a sensation or is it you?

It can't be both. Can you see that?

It is sure, if arm is poked, a sensation comes up. It is undeniable. …but still there is something saying “I”, “ME” like a shadow of that experience. It is not tangible.

Is it something more that a thought?

Intelectual understanding of that is there, but the realization still missing. I have read and heard many times “I” is just a label (thought). BTW, if it is a label, then it is a label of what? What is labeled in fact?

Well, don't ask me! They are VERY good questions. But you are the one answering questions here.
So off you go,

if I is a label, then it is a label of what?
What is labeled in fact?
Investigate.

Where does the "I" go when you forget about it?

No clue about the destination:D

So? What's the conclusion.

It is going on its own, but focusing on something brings the feeling of a do-er. An example: I will look at the picture very focused on it for 5 minutes. …I have just tried it. Impossible. Looking was there but the attention went away because of hearing “She’s like the wind…” song from outside of the window:D

Good noticing. So are you the payer of attention? Yes or No.

What do you mean with awareness? …just to be on the same page.

Well, that's funny, I've never had to define awarness before and I'm not sure how to do it!

Instead of a definition I'll say, if there was no awareness, would there be anything at all?
Would there be seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling, emotions, thoughts. Everything that happens, happens within awareness and it's not separate from it.
Does that make sense?

I would say there is the same feeling of fear but I think, it needs to be tested in real situation. Do you have any idea how to do that? I do not want to wait until I will meet a drunk man on the street again:-) …perhaps watching a horror movie at night would be helpful.

Everything is a real situation! And you can do the experiment with whatever emotions arise. Happiness, sadness, anger. It's not about getting rid of the emotion is about seeing it for what it is. All emotions are your friends if you listen to them properly. And you do that by surrendering to each and one of them. Not by falling for the STORY the mind spins around them, but by letting go into the emotion completely open.

I do not know why but laugh has come several times while answering the questions.

It tends to happen as you get closer to the truth and start realising the silliness of it all :-)

Good work Peter. Keep it up

Silvia x

[PeterCs]

Good evening!

here are answers:

Have you ever seen The Table?. The Table is the idea that your mind has created based on experience of contact with objects that share similar qualities and functions. It's very useful in everyday life. You can say I want to buy a table, instead of I want to buy a flat surface supported on 4 legs.. etc. But beyond the thought/idea table is there A Table?

Is there anything other than experience/This?

There is only experience.

It's the same with everything else! Check for yourself! What is there beyond the labels "seeing" and "me" and "table"?

…reading those words, images pop up in “my” head. For example: “table” – an image of a white table in a room with a braun floor pops up in “my” head and then an idea “It is from IKEA”:D

Beyond the label/thought I, what is there?

Reading “I” causes sensations in the body, images in head.

Just remember that is not about trying to get rid of this feeling/sensation of ME. It's about seeing it for what it is.

So which is it, is it a sensation or is it you?

It can't be both. Can you see that?

Not sure.

It is sure, if arm is poked, a sensation comes up. It is undeniable. …but still there is something saying “I”, “ME” like a shadow of that experience. It is not tangible.

Is it something more that a thought?

Not really.

If I is a label, then it is a label of what?
What is labeled in fact?

Investigate.

That is the big question. No idea. “I” seems to be a label for that what is happening.

Where does the "I" go when you forget about it?

No clue about the destination:D

So? What's the conclusion.

…that “I” is simply a thought like the others ones? Come and goes without any invitation.

Good noticing. So are you the payer of attention? Yes or No.

No.

…Instead of a definition I'll say, if there was no awareness, would there be anything at all?
Would there be seeing, hearing, smelling, feeling, emotions, thoughts. Everything that happens, happens within awareness and it's not separate from it.
Does that make sense?

It sounds like awareness is like a space with no starting and ending point.

I would say there is the same feeling of fear but I think, it needs to be tested in real situation. Do you have any idea how to do that? I do not want to wait until I will meet a drunk man on the street again:-) …perhaps watching a horror movie at night would be helpful.

Everything is a real situation! And you can do the experiment with whatever emotions arise. Happiness, sadness, anger. It's not about getting rid of the emotion is about seeing it for what it is. All emotions are your friends if you listen to them properly. And you do that by surrendering to each and one of them. Not by falling for the STORY the mind spins around them, but by letting go into the emotion completely open.

Okay.

Peter

[PeterCs]

It seems that "I" is a thought that comes, does it labels and goes away ...on its own.

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Charlie,

There is only experience.

Could you explain this a bit more?

It's the same with everything else! Check for yourself! What is there beyond the labels "seeing" and "me" and "table"?

…reading those words, images pop up in “my” head. For example: “table” – an image of a white table in a room with a braun floor pops up in “my” head and then an idea “It is from IKEA”:D

Ok, but you haven't really answered the question I asked

Beyond the label/thought I, what is there?

Reading “I” causes sensations in the body, images in head.

Same here. You haven't answered the question. I'll ask a different way. Is "I" anything more than a thought/label?

Just remember that is not about trying to get rid of this feeling/sensation of ME. It's about seeing it for what it is.

So which is it, is it a sensation or is it you?

It can't be both. Can you see that?

Not sure.

Are you the body?

…that “I” is simply a thought like the others ones? Come and goes without any invitation.

Do you see this clearly?

I'll leave it here for today.

Best wishes
Silvia x

[PeterCs]

Hi Silvia,

I put the answers to your questions in one part.

• Are you the body?

• Is "I" anything more than a thought/label?

• What is there beyond the labels "seeing" and "me" and "table"?

• There is only experience. – could you explain this a bit more?

• What is there beyond the labels "seeing" and "me" and "table"?

• …that “I” is simply a thought like the others ones? Come and goes without any invitation. – Do you see this clearly?

No. I am not the body. In fact I have no clue what everything is going in the body. Breathing, seeing, hearing, heart beating, feelings felt... no one is doing them. They are only happening by their own ways. In fact, there is no clue how a movement of body is done. Just tested: I want to put the left hand up. It is happening, but how is done, is a mystery. The line between „I want to...“ and „putting the hand up“ is empty. There seems to be a do-er of that but the do-er is not found. The hand seems to be upheld. There is experience of „hand puting up“ movement.

You see the „I“ letter was used several times in the answer above. It is confusing now. „I“ say „I“ but not sure what is it. It sounds strange hearing that „I...“ It seems to be only a label and beyond it is nothing. It is the same for „table“, „seeing“, „Peter“, „The-Song-of-Me“, „experience“...

It cannot be denied, that regardless of what is happening now, there is something unchanged. It is like noticing, but the experience of noticing itself is noticed. ...it is hard to be explained by words. It seems that „I“ is the label for that „noticing“, „I“ as a watcher identification.

---

It is quite hard to answer your questions sometimes. Is looking really direct or is it only seeing a mind projection? Is this or that answer really honest or not? It is confusing and bringing feeling to be lost. One is sure: all is noticed somehow and no one is doing that.

Thank you for the pushing questions and for the patience.

Peter

[PeterCs]

Silvia?

...is there any possible way or question that can help to show directly, what "I" is exactly? I mean for example only one question that can bring nothing else than the truth about "I". ...starting from scratch.

It has been mentioned that "I" is a thought only. Really? Why is it not realized in my case?

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hi Peter,

These answers are really, really good. :-) .

Breathing, seeing, hearing, heart beating, feelings felt... no one is doing them. They are only happening by their own ways

So there is no you making any of these happen. That's great noticing! But do they happen on their own? Do they pop out of the blue? or is it more like a set of conditions give rise to a sensation, that gives rise to an emotion, that gives rise to a thought, that gives rise to an action.. and so on?

Explore this in your own experience and then report back.

You see the „I“ letter was used several times in the answer above. It is confusing now. „I“ say „I“ but not sure what is it. It sounds strange hearing that „I...“ It seems to be only a label and beyond it is nothing. It is the same for „table“, „seeing“, „Peter“, „The-Song-of-Me“, „experienc

So "I" is just a handy label! Good! And it's ok to keep using it for communication purposes. Although sometimes it feels like we need a new language to communicate doesn't it? It feels wrong to say I am angry, when there is just an experience of momentary anger that is not personal.

It is like noticing, but the experience of noticing itself is noticed. ...it is hard to be explained by words. It seems that „I“ is the label for that „noticing“, „I“ as a watcher identification

Ok, so this brings me back to that awareness thing we talked about in the last post.
This noticing of noticing and everything else that arises in experience is awareness. There is perhaps a bit of a language barrier here. But don't worry about the words and just look at the experience.
There is the direct experience of form, color, sound, smell, taste, touch, feeling, emotion, thought and all their combinations, and all this happens in awareness. Yes?
No awareness = no experience. Do you agree?
So in a way awareness is beyond experience and it's experience itself! It cannot be put into words. Does this make sense and feel true?

Now, the question is, is awareness you? Are you the awareness? Do you control it or make it happen?
If I say, stop being aware! What happens?
This identification with awareness is where the feeling of a separate watcher or witness comes from.
Explore this thoroughly then report back.

It is quite hard to answer your questions sometimes. Is looking really direct or is it only seeing a mind projection? Is this or that answer really honest or not? It is confusing and bringing feeling to be lost. One is sure: all is noticed somehow and no one is doing that.

As we get closer and closer to the truth there is an increasing sense that whenever we talk we are telling a story, and therefore lying a little. That's because reality cannot be put into words. The simplest thing like the taste of a strawberry cannot be described to a person who has never tried one (try!). All we have are labels. And they do a pretty good job at organising and clasifying, but they don't really explain anything "real"

Feeling a bit lost is also normal. Clarity will increase so don't worry. You're doing really well just keep exploring.


Apart from this watcher/witness I-dentification is there any other area of your experience that you feel still needs more exploring?

is there any possible way or question that can help to show directly, what "I" is exactly? I mean for example only one question that can bring nothing else than the truth about "I". ...starting from scratch.

There is no magic formula I'm afraid! The only question to ask is the one we've been asking all along! Is there a separate me doing.. controlling.. watching.. existing.. anywhere at all? Then with this question in mind you proceed to examine every single aspect of experience; the body, the senses, the seen, the heard, the thoughts, the emotions, awareness.. until it is seen clearly that there is no you to be found anywhere. There is just the heard, the seen, etc. etc. Life lifeing!

And you're very close to seeing this now Peter!
Much love
Silvia x

[PeterCs]

Hi Silvia,

I will be not available for 1 or 2 days. I travel and I will not have access to the internet. On Sunday I should be back...
Investigation is still kept. Thank you:-)

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Ok, enjoy your trip!
just make sure you don't lose the momentum you've been building. Keep looking and try if you can to keep writing on a notebook the main things that come up to you.
X

[PeterCs]

Hi Silvia,

I am back. I enjoyed the trip, meeting family and some new people in my "home village". It was also a bit feeling mixed. You know, memories, seeing how some things have changed but one thing has not change - "feeling" to be same.

Now to your questions:

Breathing, seeing, hearing, heart beating, feelings felt... no one is doing them. They are only happening by their own ways

So there is no you making any of these happen. That's great noticing! But do they happen on their own? Do they pop out of the blue? or is it more like a set of conditions give rise to a sensation, that gives rise to an emotion, that gives rise to a thought, that gives rise to an action.. and so on?

Agree with that. For example now feeling cold gave rise to a thought going outside where is quite hot sun shining. I am aware of that “movement” and it is very changeable. Looking at something else gives rise to other emotion, thought. This happens all the time during a day or while dreaming during the night.

There is the direct experience of form, color, sound, smell, taste, touch, feeling, emotion, thought and all their combinations, and all this happens in awareness. Yes?
No awareness = no experience. Do you agree?

Agree.

So in a way awareness is beyond experience and it's experience itself! It cannot be put into words. Does this make sense and feel true?

It feels so. It cannot be really put into words. It is so obvious, so natural, so effortless, undeniable.

Now, the question is, is awareness you? Are you the awareness? Do you control it or make it happen?
If I say, stop being aware! What happens?

I do not know if I am awareness. It sounds strange to hear that. Awareness is not under “my” control. It happens, or in other worlds it is still in presence. …but also it sounds strange to hear “awareness happens”. It is not changeable, not moving… it is not a thing.

Stop being aware!

Who?...that comes up in head. No change regarding awareness.

Apart from this watcher/witness I-dentification is there any other area of your experience that you feel still needs more exploring?

What the life is about? Why all of this? …just looking outside the window there are seen many things – sky with clouds, roof of a house, flowers shaking in wind, balcony, colors, shapes, different forms, human dramas, I-dentification... Why all of that exist and happen?

One more last thing. During my trip I was drinking quite a lot of alcohol. It was experienced what alcohol made with body. The next day it was bad - headache and stomachache. You know... But one thing was very strong experienced. The line between dreaming and "real" world was very thin. I closed eyes, I was falling asleep and different images poped up. They seems to be so real, it was like living a different life/story while sleeping. But after waking up, it was recognized, it was only a dream. It was almost like a hallucination.

Peter

[The-Song-Of-Me]

Hello Peter,

Glad you had a good trip.

It was also a bit feeling mixed. You know, memories, seeing how some things have changed but one thing has not change - "feeling" to be same.

Could you tell me a bit more about these feelings and memories? You don't have to tell me the exact details or story behind them. Just how do they affect you? Has there been any change in your experience of them since you started this process?

Are they still seen to happen to "you"?

What are memories?

Agree with that. For example now feeling cold gave rise to a thought going outside where is quite hot sun shining. I am aware of that “movement” and it is very changeable. Looking at something else gives rise to other emotion, thought. This happens all the time during a day or while dreaming during the night.

Good! Do you control any of it?

It feels so. It cannot be really put into words. It is so obvious, so natural, so effortless, undeniable.

Beautiful

I do not know if I am awareness. It sounds strange to hear that. Awareness is not under “my” control. It happens, or in other worlds it is still in presence. …but also it sounds strange to hear “awareness happens”. It is not changeable, not moving… it is not a thing.

Well said. No, it's not a thing! :) It's just this. Words do a very bad job of explaining it.

Are awareness and attention the same thing?
Can you describe what attention is and how it happens?
Can you find a you making it happen?

It seems that „I“ is the label for that „noticing“, „I“ as a watcher identification.

Where does this I-watcher identification come from? Does it have anything to do with the previous questions?

Stop being aware!

Who?...that comes up in head. No change regarding awareness.

Good!

What the life is about? Why all of this? …just looking outside the window there are seen many things – sky with clouds, roof of a house, flowers shaking in wind, balcony, colors, shapes, different forms, human dramas, I-dentification... Why all of that exist and happen?

Watch the stories that arise when you look outside the window. Are they true? Do you know them to be true? What do you really see when you look outside the window? And more importantly what is it that looks?

Good answers Peter, where do you think you're at in terms of seeing there is no self?
Do you see it clearly? Do you have any doubts? What are the doubts?

Much love
Silvia