Would someone be willing to guide me please?

[kvotski]

Yes, it is seen is nonsense. Only the understanding is needed. A guide recently said, you can belong to the Mickey Mouse club knowing full well there is no Mickey. Operating without labels is impossible for the brain. And where would we stop, that hollow clay container is cup, and the thorny fruit is pineapple? Silly.

I have nothing more. Your move to decide if you want to open up your understanding to other guides to deepen it or not.

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

I'd love to try and deepen my understanding. You mentioned before that there may be some questions that help with that.

I can't believe you've been talking to me for nearly three months. Thank you so much for your time and effort, I deeply grateful for your understanding, advice and guidance.

Matt

[kvotski]

Excellent. Here are the questions. Take your time and let's see how deep is the rabbit hole.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?

Answer based on the usual, direct experience, not analysis and thought.

[Matt13]

Thanks Sunil, I'll take a look and post back

[kvotski]

It looks like you have posted soemthing but nothing showed up.

Please check again.

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

Here are my answers. Bit rambling, sorry :-)

Excellent. Here are the questions. Take your time and let's see how deep is the rabbit hole.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No , nothing physical or real. Just thoughts that identify with what is going on. These thoughts add up to an impression that Matt is here, and create a narrative of things happening to Matt and Matt doing things.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's an occurrence of thoughts that lay claim to what is happening by associating events and objects to an invented identity. By claiming things and events a picture or memory of a person, a self, an identity is built up.
I don't remember a time before these thoughts were there. It has to be a learned response because there are identifications that cannot be in-built, like 'owning' this computer, or this house. It must have been learned from others as they implant thoughts of who I am, what I am, what I own, and so on.
Back where in the history of humankind it started who knows? Animals display a basic possession in the sense of fighting over prey, though for them it's in the moment, they don't 'own' it once the immediate use is gone. Humans seem to hang on to the idea beyond it's usefulness.
As I see it now, things happen, thoughts come up and actions happen. Thoughts still come up that this is 'my' computer, that 'I' have just eaten dinner, for example, but they are just more thoughts and do not grab attention as they did before. Before starting out on this process they felt real, solid and true. Now they feel pro forma, like politely smiling, or observing some convention that's useful but not heart-felt.
Thoughts that would have felt like personal crises before now just happen, and then go away again. Likewise the energy they produce just appears as bodily sensations.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

From the last few days, it's calm. All the hustle, bustle, busyness, emotion and thinking of normal life is happening, but it now feels like there is an unmoved foundation. Life hasn't changed outwardly, but it has changed inwardly. Sometimes there's a worry that action will cease, but then things happen anyway. Planning still happens and worry still happens, but they aren't everything anymore, they are just thoughts coming and going. This level of calm changes. Sometimes, like now, it feels very deep. At other times all kinds of thoughts and reactions to life come to the fore. Ultimately though, remembering and seeing that there is no-one to get worked up calms everything down again. Sometimes the worry is that all this will be forgotten and life, thoughts, 'I' will take over again.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Can't out my finger on it. No one incident, which is perhaps why so many doubts have arisen through the process. It has crept up slowly and it's the contrast with life before the process, coupled with the calm of the last few days that seems to have created a more solid understanding, assuming it's understood!

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

No, and it's clear to see when the decision process is watched really closely. The though that 'I' decided, or will decide, or have to decide still comes up, but all the 'I' can do is lay claim after the event.
For example, on driving home today I was trying to decide what to make for a pot-luck picnic on Sunday. After a few minutes of thinking, I relaxed, knowing that the decision will get made. It's not a cop-out, just a recognition of the process. It didn't stop the thinking either, just took any concern out of it. Sure enough, without thinking I picked up and leafed through a recipe book earlier this evening, found a recipe and decided to make it, all just happening without conscious direction.

6) Anything to add?

It still feels pretentious to answer these questions and think any progress has been made. I guess habitual thought and character traits don't disappear, of if they will it will be over time.

Matt

[kvotski]

Looks really good, Matt.

I will get some feedback from my friends at LU for you.

[Matt13]

Thanks Sunil

[kvotski]

Hi Matt,

Part of the process here is that we make sure there area no hidden corners in your understanding which may ruin the time we have spent together. In that light contemplate these questions and comments not as test of sorts. Answer them if you feel appropriate.

You said, and I share this "Before starting out on this process they [the I/me/my thoughts] felt real, solid and true. Now they feel pro forma, like politely smiling, or observing some convention that's useful but not heart-felt."

A guide asked the following
Q: Is it the feeling that indicates the content of these thoughts is illusion? Or have you seen this directly and unmistakably?

This is a good one to ponder,
You said "Sometimes the worry is that all this will be forgotten and life, thoughts, 'I' will take over again."
Q: Is there or has there ever been an 'I' that could possibly take over? Take over what?

This one seems a little about the construction of your statement that "...it's the contrast with life before the process, coupled with the calm of the last few days that seems to have created a more solid understanding, assuming it's understood!"

Q: Does the calm create the understanding? Or have you seen through the illusion?

Another word confirmation question is,

Matt mentioned in his post on 2nd July about it taking time to get to a 'heartfelt' understanding. I'm not sure if it's just a confidence thing when he writes, I suspect it is, but would you mind asking him if he feels he reached a heartfelt acceptance that there is no 'self'.

The last one I would like to know as well.

There is no more to do so take your time and answer to close this chapter. You can move on to several fb groups, guide others and keep up with many discussions if you like. Or just enjoy the life's wonderment and banish suffering.

Much love

[Matt13]

Hi Matt,

Part of the process here is that we make sure there area no hidden corners in your understanding which may ruin the time we have spent together. In that light contemplate these questions and comments not as test of sorts. Answer them if you feel appropriate.

Great, thanks Sunil. I've answered as best I can below.

You said, and I share this "Before starting out on this process they [the I/me/my thoughts] felt real, solid and true. Now they feel pro forma, like politely smiling, or observing some convention that's useful but not heart-felt."

A guide asked the following
Q: Is it the feeling that indicates the content of these thoughts is illusion? Or have you seen this directly and unmistakably?

No, it's not the feeling, that was perhaps the wrong word. It's the understanding that comes first. So if I'm caught up by a thought it's noticing and understanding that it is just a thought that leads to it's impact lessening, and to the feeling that it is just something happening. Then the feeling of the thoughts changes from immediate and urgent to just stuff. If the thought is a strong one about something happening to 'me', then the understanding that there is no me again lessens the impact. It's not an automatic and constant process yet, I still get caught up and then realise and then look at what is happening until I see clearly again that there is no 'I' there to experience the drama. Hope that makes more sense.

This is a good one to ponder,
You said "Sometimes the worry is that all this will be forgotten and life, thoughts, 'I' will take over again."
Q: Is there or has there ever been an 'I' that could possibly take over? Take over what?

No, there isn't an I in reality, but this meant the previous condition of being dominated by the thoughts of an 'I' and experiencing everything through that. So 'take over' means a reversion to previous experience. As I type this I don't see how that can happen, as the understanding learned here would have to be forgotten.

This one seems a little about the construction of your statement that "...it's the contrast with life before the process, coupled with the calm of the last few days that seems to have created a more solid understanding, assuming it's understood!"
Q: Does the calm create the understanding? Or have you seen through the illusion?

No, the understanding creates the calm. As the process has unfolded doubts about the level of my understanding have constantly crept in. Perhaps due to expectations of amazing changes, something you challenged me on. So, the understanding creates the calm, but the calm provides more evidence to silence the doubts. The doubts rarely come up now.

Another word confirmation question is,

Matt mentioned in his post on 2nd July about it taking time to get to a 'heartfelt' understanding. I'm not sure if it's just a confidence thing when he writes, I suspect it is, but would you mind asking him if he feels he reached a heartfelt acceptance that there is no 'self'.

The last one I would like to know as well.

Have I? Yes. There is still a confidence thing because saying that brings up a strong thought of 'who are you to claim anything like that?'. But I now understand that it's just another thought. Plus, even though 'I' is not real, it's still there, and thoughts come up all the time identified with the I - I did this today, I'm working tomorrow and so on. I even get caught up in them until I notice, and then they are just more thoughts. So yes, the understanding is clear, I just assume that it will become more automatic and constant with practice.

There is no more to do so take your time and answer to close this chapter. You can move on to several fb groups, guide others and keep up with many discussions if you like. Or just enjoy the life's wonderment and banish suffering.

If this is the end of the process Sunil then I would be interested in further discussions or groups. I don't know for sure what I would do, except perhaps try and deepen this somehow.

Matt

[kvotski]

Great, Matt.

I need one point of clarity. When you say " thoughts come up all the time identified with the I" are you referring to the convention we use in daily life to carry on? In others is it very clear in your mind that there is no I even though you and all other often use the pronoun. The way to tell the difference is whenever the pronoun is used, it is in the back of the mind, sort of a concurrent thought that knows that this is a convention.

And yes, there are plenty of deepening conversations going on among the "graduates" you may opt in.

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

I think an example of a thought that's been troubling me lately might be the best way to explain it.

I've had difficulties with a friendship recently. So much so that thoughts about this friendship come up all the time. Some of those thoughts are things like 'why do they act that way towards me' or 'I want them to like me more or act a certain way with me'. These are the kind of thoughts that I would say are identified with the I, as in Matt, the character and identity that operates in everyday life.

At the same time as these thoughts come up, and here is where the language gets difficult, another part of me is aware that these are thoughts that identify with a non-existent I, and so the thoughts are seen as just happening. That doesn't mean that emotions and sensations don't crop up, just that they seem to be just happening in the body, and watched.

Hope that explains it,

Matt

[kvotski]

I've had difficulties with a friendship recently. So much so that thoughts about this friendship come up all the time. Some of those thoughts are things like 'why do they act that way towards me' or 'I want them to like me more or act a certain way with me'. These are the kind of thoughts that I would say are identified with the I, as in Matt, the character and identity that operates in everyday life.

Exactly. The feeling of love or rejection is not towards you since you doesnt exist. It is towards their perception called Matt.

Great work.

[Matt13]

Hi Sunil,

The fact that these kind of emotional and 'identified' thoughts come up, and the fact that the intensity of thought and emotion has increased in many cases since I started this process, may be why I talk of doubts or people detect doubts in my writing. There IS an underlying sense of calm I've not had before, and there IS a recognition that these thought are just thoughts doing their thing, albeit powerfully sometimes. There are also thoughts like 'where is the bliss?', 'where is the overwhelming love?'. Again these thoughts are observed and put down to a latent identification with all the literature I've read over the years promising harmony and a smooth ride after liberation!

It's curious how much stuff is coming up, and fascinating to watch it.

Matt

[kvotski]

No more doubts, dear Matt. You will be getting invitation to join various groups when you can consult hundreds of us on matters such as the ones you bring up here.

Body and mind is the instrument that can feel bliss and wants it at all cost. In a way our entire life is a constant search for those addictive chemicals generated by good experience. Liberation reduces or eliminates suffering which will naturally increase those chemicals. Some react to that by walking around in euphoria and others like me just have a better night's sleep. Who knows how it will manifest with you? But looks like it is already happening.

Welcome to the fold.