Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
I reckon we must be confusing apples and oranges Metta. I really need to pin you down on your definition of awareness, because to me, it is completely associated with my body and it's 5 senses. I don't understand how it could possibly be anything other. In deep sleep there is no awareness. This awareness issue has always confused me when reading nonduality stuff. Can you clear this up for me Metta? Thank you
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Hi Bob,
I will do my best to clear it up. While I am doing that , could you answer the few question I asked in the previous post, thanks.
In deep sleep there is awareness, why if someone comes in a room when someone is sleeping will a person suddenly wake up? There is a sense something is wrong. Why in a coma will people if they awaken remember things that were said during the time they were supposedly totally unaware? Personal experience here. Why during anesthesia is it being registered what is being said? When a decision is made, why is there a 6 second delay before the man is aware of what the decision is and who is making the decision?
What is awareness might be helpful. Awareness is everything you have consciousness of, your body, the environment, dreams, thoughts, sensations, heat, the sun, stars. Imagination. Like imagining, there is a self. Love, Metta
I will do my best to clear it up. While I am doing that , could you answer the few question I asked in the previous post, thanks.
In deep sleep there is awareness, why if someone comes in a room when someone is sleeping will a person suddenly wake up? There is a sense something is wrong. Why in a coma will people if they awaken remember things that were said during the time they were supposedly totally unaware? Personal experience here. Why during anesthesia is it being registered what is being said? When a decision is made, why is there a 6 second delay before the man is aware of what the decision is and who is making the decision?
What is awareness might be helpful. Awareness is everything you have consciousness of, your body, the environment, dreams, thoughts, sensations, heat, the sun, stars. Imagination. Like imagining, there is a self. Love, Metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Hi Bob,
From an experiential point of view a child experiences life in a certain way. They directly experience life without a lot of thought clutter. Is thought self? Is body self? Aren't thoughts just ideas or concepts we tell ourself , we string them together and get a story of self. From this string of thoughts and ideas we put together an identity and call it a self. but this is merely a concept. A story. Do we come with an identity, how is it formed? Love, metta
From an experiential point of view a child experiences life in a certain way. They directly experience life without a lot of thought clutter. Is thought self? Is body self? Aren't thoughts just ideas or concepts we tell ourself , we string them together and get a story of self. From this string of thoughts and ideas we put together an identity and call it a self. but this is merely a concept. A story. Do we come with an identity, how is it formed? Love, metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
I thought I'd already answered your questions Metta (the non-rhetorical ones at least :-) ). Yes, awareness is totally limited by our body senses; in order of diminishing distance : Sight - millions of miles, Hearing - several miles, Smell - hundreds of feet, Touch - skin surface, Taste - inside the mouth. These are the 5 senses, there is no sixth. This is all elementary biology Metta, I'm not sure what you are getting at. Human awareness is limited to the body, by it's 5 senses. Loss of any of these greatly limits the awareness doesn't it? Am I missing something here?
And yes, it is my thought story, my impression/conclusion (shared by many others), that the universe is a cold and indifferent place. I really hope to be proved wrong Metta. Paul
And yes, it is my thought story, my impression/conclusion (shared by many others), that the universe is a cold and indifferent place. I really hope to be proved wrong Metta. Paul
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Oh, and no we certainly don't come with an identity. It is formed over many years by our interaction with our environment and with other people and by our reactions to the many circumstances of our lives. Memories and habits, likes and dislikes get laid down over time to produce an individual character.
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Hi Bob,
There is no proving anything, it is the experiencing , the existential. The exploration of the questions I ask or the things I point to are the work you do.
Is it really true, look at it with some logic. first the mind is just a labeling machine,like a computer, it organizes data and chooses solutions based on past experiences. Except these past experiences color the data of NOW. Now, does not necessarily reflect what is going on when colored by many things. Examples are, beliefs, perceptions that are skewed by preconceived information, religion, cultural belief's, parental training, and on and on. If these are not questioned and just believed then that is what is true for you.
No doubt there is coldness and indifference and it is balanced by as much love and caring. Everything has the opposite. In order for there to be progress there has to be a willingness to question the validity of some long held ideas and concepts.
How is thought defined? What is it? sit for awhile, stop thinking thoughts, keep your brain quiet. Is there still awareness? without thought. After this, look at your hands, there is no thought that when I get up in the AM , "Well, I must make my hands work now." Yet they do. Many people live on auto-pilot only. When the distractions are gone, thoughts are stilled, noise is stopped, what is left?
Give this more then some cursory examination, really sit with no distraction whatsoever and let it be experienced without putting any thought into it at all. Then think about the questions afterwards. Describe the experience of sitting without thought.
Love, metta
There is no proving anything, it is the experiencing , the existential. The exploration of the questions I ask or the things I point to are the work you do.
So if the person you call you is merely a story or a series of stories based on concepts, how is this the reality of who you are? Feelings and emotions are subjective, they have no solid basis for belief. Most of what has been said by you are merely beliefs and thought stories. Ex: this is a cold and indifferent place. That is a belief. Not necessarily truth.And yes, it is my thought story, my impression/conclusion (shared by many others), that the universe is a cold and indifferent place. I really hope to be proved wrong Metta. Paul
Is it really true, look at it with some logic. first the mind is just a labeling machine,like a computer, it organizes data and chooses solutions based on past experiences. Except these past experiences color the data of NOW. Now, does not necessarily reflect what is going on when colored by many things. Examples are, beliefs, perceptions that are skewed by preconceived information, religion, cultural belief's, parental training, and on and on. If these are not questioned and just believed then that is what is true for you.
No doubt there is coldness and indifference and it is balanced by as much love and caring. Everything has the opposite. In order for there to be progress there has to be a willingness to question the validity of some long held ideas and concepts.
How is thought defined? What is it? sit for awhile, stop thinking thoughts, keep your brain quiet. Is there still awareness? without thought. After this, look at your hands, there is no thought that when I get up in the AM , "Well, I must make my hands work now." Yet they do. Many people live on auto-pilot only. When the distractions are gone, thoughts are stilled, noise is stopped, what is left?
Give this more then some cursory examination, really sit with no distraction whatsoever and let it be experienced without putting any thought into it at all. Then think about the questions afterwards. Describe the experience of sitting without thought.
Love, metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Hi Metta. I've just sat for about 20 minutes without thought, as best I could. I have tinnitus and that really distracts me, but I managed a few moments of quiet. There was a palpable sense of being which was deeply peaceful; I guess this is the natural self, without thoughts and worries. I often practice this throughout the day, just dropping all thoughts for a few moments and sinking into this sense of being, which I find very relaxing. Makes me realise just how much my mind is constantly chattering with useless thoughts most of the day!
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Hi Bob,
I think we need to communicate on a more feeling, existent level.
If there is use of the words, I,me, my ,etc. it is just to facilitate communicating.
Why does this natural state have to come with an I ? Wouldn't it be there with or without an identity added to it? Please answer this directly. Thank you and Namaste, Metta
I think we need to communicate on a more feeling, existent level.
Yes, good. this is experiencing rather then thought. Our natural state is peaceful and when in the NOW moment which is all there is, life living without any help from a story of self it can and is many times beautiful. :-) Try to expand a little more here in your answers. consider what your expectations are and tell me about them.There was a palpable sense of being which was deeply peaceful; I guess this is the natural self, without thoughts and worries. I often practice this throughout the day, just dropping all thoughts for a few moments and sinking into this sense of being,
If there is use of the words, I,me, my ,etc. it is just to facilitate communicating.
Why does this natural state have to come with an I ? Wouldn't it be there with or without an identity added to it? Please answer this directly. Thank you and Namaste, Metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
I think what I am expecting Metta, is a gradual or sudden letting go of the super-strong sense of self I have right now and with that should come the ability to live in the natural, unself-obsessed state; free from life consuming fears and anxieties. At the same time, I am also fearful of such a change; will I be a different person; will I still love my family just the same; will I go mad? etc. etc.
No, I don't believe this natural state has to come with an 'I' attached. The 'I' is completely superfluous and indeed a hindrance to it. If I woke up one morning with total amnesia, assuming I could control the inevitable panic and anxiety, that natural presence/awareness would be right there just the same. My problem is that this super-strong sense of self is alive and kicking and I can't imagine how a lifetime of it's development can be eradicated in anything less than another 50 years.
No, I don't believe this natural state has to come with an 'I' attached. The 'I' is completely superfluous and indeed a hindrance to it. If I woke up one morning with total amnesia, assuming I could control the inevitable panic and anxiety, that natural presence/awareness would be right there just the same. My problem is that this super-strong sense of self is alive and kicking and I can't imagine how a lifetime of it's development can be eradicated in anything less than another 50 years.
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Hi Bob,
It is the constant tension of trying to control the uncontrollable. Of thinking thoughts that say, if there is no control what terrible things might happen. Can it be seen that what is going to happen is just going to happen. That the story of Bob continues and the mind acting on the environment ,the illusion, becomes action/reaction. But when awareness is looked at in simplicity, there is only awareness here NOW. That is all there ever is.
Right, there is no "I" attached, there never was and never will be. It is a mind story, that is a series of thoughts strung together. Like developing the plot of a book, your mind weaves together everything, labels it, then we were told, the big lie, that this is you and the you can die. We are given a huge list of ideas and shoulds. Write the list of shoulds for me and see that not one came from you. Not ONE. This sense of self is a belief only, not fact. Look inside, get still, be aware without thought and just be the observer, is there really a self? Investigate and don't let fear turn you back. There is nothing to fear, it is a boogey man the mind made up to keep control. I felt the same at first, like a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach and the thought if there is no self what will happen to my life? It was just a thought. Can a thought itself harm you in any way or is it the belief in the story? Don't imagine, experience the existent presence. The peace was experienced by awareness already when sitting and just being aware. LOOK! see your hands, your palms, look at the lines in them, see the wall, what color is it, feel the breath going in and out of the body, feel the sensation of sitting, your skin. What more is there? Love is showering down all the time, but when awareness opens like a flower and the silence and peace are there then it is felt. Put aside the chattering mind, it is like a monkey jumping from tree to tree. Just Be! Experience that in the moment of Now. Love, Much, metta
Ahhhhhh, okay, there is quite a bit of ego resistance . It is natural for the mind to feel fear and anxiety or loss of the control it has exerted in maintaining the illusions for so long. There is fear of change, yet when looking there is the obviousness that change takes place non-stop all around and within. The only thing that changes is the perspective on what is seen, not in what is taking place all the time. Will you go mad, no. Who is there to go mad, the story of Bob? Will there still be love for your family, assuredly so. Perhaps more.I think what I am expecting Metta, is a gradual or sudden letting go of the super-strong sense of self I have right now and with that should come the ability to live in the natural, unself-obsessed state; free from life consuming fears and anxieties. At the same time, I am also fearful of such a change; will I be a different person; will I still love my family just the same; will I go mad? etc. etc.
It is the constant tension of trying to control the uncontrollable. Of thinking thoughts that say, if there is no control what terrible things might happen. Can it be seen that what is going to happen is just going to happen. That the story of Bob continues and the mind acting on the environment ,the illusion, becomes action/reaction. But when awareness is looked at in simplicity, there is only awareness here NOW. That is all there ever is.
No, I don't believe this natural state has to come with an 'I' attached. The 'I' is completely superfluous and indeed a hindrance to it. If I woke up one morning with total amnesia, assuming I could control the inevitable panic and anxiety, that natural presence/awareness would be right there just the same. My problem is that this super-strong sense of self is alive and kicking and I can't imagine how a lifetime of it's development can be eradicated in anything less than another 50 years.
Right, there is no "I" attached, there never was and never will be. It is a mind story, that is a series of thoughts strung together. Like developing the plot of a book, your mind weaves together everything, labels it, then we were told, the big lie, that this is you and the you can die. We are given a huge list of ideas and shoulds. Write the list of shoulds for me and see that not one came from you. Not ONE. This sense of self is a belief only, not fact. Look inside, get still, be aware without thought and just be the observer, is there really a self? Investigate and don't let fear turn you back. There is nothing to fear, it is a boogey man the mind made up to keep control. I felt the same at first, like a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach and the thought if there is no self what will happen to my life? It was just a thought. Can a thought itself harm you in any way or is it the belief in the story? Don't imagine, experience the existent presence. The peace was experienced by awareness already when sitting and just being aware. LOOK! see your hands, your palms, look at the lines in them, see the wall, what color is it, feel the breath going in and out of the body, feel the sensation of sitting, your skin. What more is there? Love is showering down all the time, but when awareness opens like a flower and the silence and peace are there then it is felt. Put aside the chattering mind, it is like a monkey jumping from tree to tree. Just Be! Experience that in the moment of Now. Love, Much, metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Many thanks again for your helpful words Metta! I was wondering though, what do you mean by a list of shoulds? Thanks. Paul
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Hi Bob,
A list of things that were given to your mind by others, should do this, not that, should be this way and not that way. All of the things that make up who you think you are. the things indoctrinated into us by parents, culture, media, peers, church, temple or whatever. Then you start subtracting those and see whats left.
I hope your answers get a bit more forthcoming then this last post. Not much to work with in this last answer.
Metta
A list of things that were given to your mind by others, should do this, not that, should be this way and not that way. All of the things that make up who you think you are. the things indoctrinated into us by parents, culture, media, peers, church, temple or whatever. Then you start subtracting those and see whats left.
I hope your answers get a bit more forthcoming then this last post. Not much to work with in this last answer.
Metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
I was simply clarifying what it was you wanted me to write about! Sheesh :)
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Ok, I should be good, kind, helpful, more tolerant of others, slow to anger, I should write more, etc.etc.
I have spent time looking for/at self; I've been aware of what's happening right now and again felt the peace and stillness of the present moment. Then I catch a glimpse of myself as I get up out of the chair and wham! there I am again, with all my memories and baggage and problems and suffering. 'I' just won't go away that easy! There is no shift in perception, however subtle it's supposed to be and the seeker just goes on seeking.
I have spent time looking for/at self; I've been aware of what's happening right now and again felt the peace and stillness of the present moment. Then I catch a glimpse of myself as I get up out of the chair and wham! there I am again, with all my memories and baggage and problems and suffering. 'I' just won't go away that easy! There is no shift in perception, however subtle it's supposed to be and the seeker just goes on seeking.
Re: Any guide up for a challenge?.......
Hi Bob,
LOL, whatever is done or said or happens is fine. :-) I am going to post a couple of links, one is a video , please give it a look and think about it. another is a link with an exercise. Please do that and let me know how it went.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 6S9OidmNZM
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html
Bob, this is experiental and needs an open mind and willingness. Bob is just a story of labels and memories ,which are electro-chemical reactions in your brain. Be there without thought, what is it that is there when no thought is there. the video will be helpful in pointing out just how the brain works. Some do wish to keep the story, it is okay, there is no pass or fail, what happens ,happens. I hope this is helpful. Have a nice holiday if it pertains. there needs to be some good feedback this time. Love, metta
LOL, whatever is done or said or happens is fine. :-) I am going to post a couple of links, one is a video , please give it a look and think about it. another is a link with an exercise. Please do that and let me know how it went.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 6S9OidmNZM
http://markedeternal.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/labels.html
Bob, this is experiental and needs an open mind and willingness. Bob is just a story of labels and memories ,which are electro-chemical reactions in your brain. Be there without thought, what is it that is there when no thought is there. the video will be helpful in pointing out just how the brain works. Some do wish to keep the story, it is okay, there is no pass or fail, what happens ,happens. I hope this is helpful. Have a nice holiday if it pertains. there needs to be some good feedback this time. Love, metta
"This too shall pass"
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