Please guide me

[Xain]

Just accept the results of what you have found,
You know, 'I' have struggled to deny this result for so long, assuming I must be missing something. This is a big relief. No seer to be seen, no hearer to be heard, no taster to be tasted!

Not much to say right now. As you say, it is a question of cementing something or maybe more like unglueing something....

Very very good, Katie. ♥
You seemed like you just had to be given permission to find out what you knew all along :-)

I hope the realisation is that 'I' is a thought, nothing more. As a thought for daily life it is useful, but it doesn't point to anything real.

It may be beneficial to you to push just a little bit further here.
Please really have a deep look and contemplation at each of these questions

What is 'I' - Is there an 'I' left in any way shape or form? If so, what form does the 'I' take?
Is 'I' the body? Is 'I' the mind?
Is there an 'I' that is the controller of the bodies' movements?
Is there an 'I' that has thoughts?
Does 'I' control anything? Is anything here in control of anything?
Is there an 'I' that chooses or decides things?
Is there an 'I' that is going to write a reply to this message?

Xain ♥

[katiegmorrow]

Here's what's happening today:

What is this 'I' that hears? Can you find that one and tell me what it appears like?

I can't find anyone who hears--certainly no one who chooses to hear or decides to hear--sound happens or hearing happens and there doesn't seem to be any way to distinguish between sound, hearer and hearing, one shot. This sounds somehow kind of canonical--but also now, it's just like that.

really look at what is a thought, and what is actually true.

This has been very interesting--looking at the correspondence between thoughts and experience. For example, there will be a thought, "now I am going to get up" but the thought is very obviously not making anything happen--there doesn't really seem to be much, if any, motive force behind it. Getting up happens or doesn't happen and seems independent from thoughts about it. A lot of thoughts are like a running commentary on what is happening--sometimes trying to predict and sometimes claiming agency after the fact. (Like saying now I am going to get up as the body has already begun the process of moving.)

there are other kinds of thoughts as well--sort of wishing thoughts--and they feel like they have some energy, but what that is, I don't know. In addition, there is a kind of knowing, which doesn't seem to have the same substance as a lot of thoughts--more like just seeing something. For example, seeing that the thought "I must go and feed the cat" isn't the same as getting up and feeding the cat and isn't able to make anything happen. Having seen which feels sort of simple and obvious, then there seems to often follow a commentary thought sort of describing what has been seen and that in turn seems to open the door for more elaborated thinking.

What is a thought?

don't know--at the moment, they have the flavour of perceptions--like sounds/hearing or shapes/seeing there are thoughts/noticing.

There is a cat and it wants to be fed....

[ss jan]

Somehow this information--no 'I' to be found--not anywhere in my experience is not fully penetrating--

I thought I would try to take these questions a bit more slowly, starting with

Is 'I' the body?

no--this one feels pretty clear

Is there an 'I' that is the controller of the bodies' movements?

no--again pretty clear, but it's as though I don't quite get the significance of this. Intellectually it is clear and there is an experience of the spontaneous and undirected movements of the body--no controller in evidence--and still somehow there seems to be a kind of sliding off the point, lost in the thought of 'I'm doing this or that'

Also it is clear that this thought doesn't constitute either an 'I' nor evidence pointing to an 'I'

Is 'I' the mind?

no--although 'I' feel considerably less confident here, not being at all sure what 'the mind' is--but trying to keep it simple, for now, so no 'I' in thoughts, no 'I' in emotions

Is there an 'I' that has thoughts?

No--if there were an 'I', thoughts would come to it

Does 'I' control anything? Is anything here in control of anything?

If so, I cannot find it. No controller--just things happening and a habit of claiming credit

Is there an 'I' that chooses or decides things?

No matter how far back I go, I only ever find a sort of thought. However, there is a kind of assent and a kind of wishing and that seems to have some influence or meaning, but that too just appears--

What is 'I' - Is there an 'I' left in any way shape or form? If so, what form does the 'I' take?

No 'I' found and no other place to look really.

Is there an 'I' that is going to write a reply to this message?

who knows? something got written somehow-- it has taken all day in tiny snippets

Xian, despite being unable to find any I, any controller or decider, there is a kind of stubbornness or stupidity that is refusing to take this in. Little flashes of something more open and more playful but a heck of a lot of thickness

[katiegmorrow]

Hello across the void,

The last response was from 'me' -- Katie -- I posted it without realising the website had been logged into by a friend.

Today has a very different flavour--spacious and very beautiful--definitely an increased willingness to just be in a kind of selfless presence with some trust. All the niggles and problems are little thoughts and at the moment they seem kind of like birdsong, sort of highlighting the space.

hope you are well

xx

[Xain]

Hi there Katie - Thanks for your last reply.

I have decided to take a break from guiding for the time being, and will not be able to reply to any further messages here.

I thank you for your conversation.
Please open a new thread up with a new guide and continue from there if you wish.

Best wishes to you for the future
Xain ♥

[katiegmorrow]

Thank you so much for all the time and help you have given me--something definitely starting so I am very grateful.

I hope that you are well and that your break is fruitful,

best wishes to you to,

Katie

[Paulo]

Hi Katie,

I've read through your dialogue with Xain and I can see that you both have been very thorough in this work. I will begin by reviewing what you have looked at so far -

1. You have seen that there is no 'I' there hearing, seeing, tasting.
2. You have seen that there is no 'I' as the body or controller of movement.
3. You saw that there is no separate 'I' in thought, or choosing options/making decisions.

In your last posting you express some reservation -

despite being unable to find any I, any controller or decider, there is a kind of stubbornness or stupidity that is refusing to take this in. Little flashes of something more open and more playful but a heck of a lot of thickness

Let's try another angle. Consider the statement below -

Nothing exists outside the present moment.

Take a little time to consider that statement throughout your daily life. Look and consider it in different situations, and see if you can actually find anything outside the present moment.

What is it that you do find in the present moment?

Paulo :-)

[katiegmorrow]

Dear Paulo,

First apologies for having slipped away without warning--not sure why--just couldn't manage to go to the computer.

I hope you still have the time to work with me.

see if you can actually find anything outside the present moment.

What is it that you do find in the present moment?

I haven't been able to find anything outside the present moment, (but then I wasn't really expecting to). What I do find in the present moment is three sorts of present moments. One is when I am caught up in a lot of distracted and cloudy thinking so it's like the present moment in a fog, but not noticing it. The second is some kind of mindful present--there is some sense of awareness and greater space and clarity--I can see the fog as fog if that is what is happening--ordinary be-here-now. And the third is in some sense just the same--nothing exactly changes--but it is a timeless nowness, much richer and stranger.

So far, no 'i' found in the present moment either, but lots of i-flavored thinking.

Thank you for your patience,

Katie

[Paulo]

Hi Katie, wonderful to see you here once again,

So how have things been in your short time away? Are there any experiences or insights you wish to share about seeing through the illusion of self?

What I do find in the present moment is three sorts of present moments. One is when I am caught up in a lot of distracted and cloudy thinking so it's like the present moment in a fog, but not noticing it. The second is some kind of mindful present--there is some sense of awareness and greater space and clarity--I can see the fog as fog if that is what is happening--ordinary be-here-now. And the third is in some sense just the same--nothing exactly changes--but it is a timeless nowness, much richer and stranger.

Are these really different present moments, or just different experiences in the present moment?

Is there an experiencer there, or just experience?

So far, no 'i' found in the present moment either, but lots of i-flavored thinking.

Is the 'I' in this thinking something real, or is it a thought 'believed' to be real?

Did you ever watch a compelling movie and find yourself cheering for the leading character? It's all fantasy, and yet when we mistake the fantasy for reality we engage with the characters and their various ups and downs. Do you see we do the same thing with characters in our thoughts? It's all a story, a fantasy, there's nothing there in reality.

Here's a little exercise to demonstrate how the mind mistakes the imaginary character in thought for a real being, and tries to protect it, it's what we might call the 'jump test'.

Step 1: Stand in a room where you have some quiet and some space
Step 2: Close your eyes and imagine as vividly as you can that you are standing on the roof of a tall building. Feel the wind around you, hear the traffic and noise of the street below, check if it's night or day, have a look around and note what you can see - engage as many senses in the imaginary experience as you can.
Step 3: In your imagination walk to the edge of the building - look at how far the street is below, see the traffic and people if there are any, see your feet on the edge.
Step 4: Both in your imagination, and with the physical body, take a step forward over the edge.

Observe how the body reacts, observe how the imaginary characters falls - did you reach the bottom, landing on the ground?

Try that exercise again until you can successfully fall and land.

The laws of physics don't apply to the imagination - why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?

Paulo.

[katiegmorrow]

Thanks for such a generous and rich email....

So how have things been in your short time away?

I had one day when something about all this really opened up for me. It's hard to characterise, especially now that it is a memory and no longer experiential--but it was something like this: within an open space filled with incredible richness various perceptions occurred, vivid, beautiful and intense and then one by one they faded and gave way to something new. Altogether it felt like a kind of experiential confirmation of many teachings I've received in the past to do with freshness, the accommodating nature of reality, effortlessness, the evam principle ... for that afternoon there was no preoccupation with self/not self, it was more like who cares about these self thoughts in the midst of such splendor.

Then, perhaps in a kind of reaction, the next few days were a bit flat and my story was "I can't get it together to do anything"--but there was also a kind of residue of deeper trust--in this process and in the universe. At the back of my mind was some kind of haunting refrain: liberation unleashed....no escape! :)

Are these really different present moments, or just different experiences in the present moment?

Thank you for helping me clarify this. No, there are not three different present moments--and that isn't really what I meant--but they are three different ways of experiencing the same present moment. I guess what I was trying to notice is that the spaced out, foggy thing is also 'present moment'

Is there an experiencer there, or just experience?

I notice--right now--some nervousness as I approach the question of is there an experiencer. There is experience and it is undeniable and unpin-downable--can't be stopped, can't be started, can (??) be played with...it's hard not to use the experience to 'prove' the experiencer--still feels so natural. There's an edginess around this right now and tears are springing to my eyes. I can feel a sort of tension--thoughts like 'I have to keep up, have to remember, have to understand' sort of loosening their grip. I think I will try to stay with this awhile now.

so more on stepping off the edge later....

thanks, katie

[Paulo]

Hi Katie,

Then, perhaps in a kind of reaction, the next few days were a bit flat and my story was "I can't get it together to do anything"--but there was also a kind of residue of deeper trust--in this process and in the universe.

Thats fine, just let whatever happens in the moment to just be there, with no expectations of what should or shouldn't be.

There's an edginess around this right now and tears are springing to my eyes. I can feel a sort of tension--thoughts like 'I have to keep up, have to remember, have to understand' sort of loosening their grip. I think I will try to stay with this awhile now.

Allow whatever feelings arise to just be there, that's what's happening in the moment. And look, look very closely - look for an experiencer in that moment, can you find anything having that experience?

I'm looking forward to seeing how the 'jump test' went.

Love, Paulo.

[katiegmorrow]

Hi again,

I had three goes with the 'jump test'.

The first time I felt some excitement and trepidation. I'm afraid of heights and even in this imagining I could feel a sense of vertigo. When I took the step I was suddenly surprised at the firmness of the ground under my feet--like being jolted out of a dream. This led to some pondering about ground and groundlessness--but experientially there was no leaving the ground.

The second time the imaginative build up was less vivid but more 'suicidal', and when I took the step there was a sense of falling through space (feet first) but somehow it all veered off into thinking and I felt somehow once again ejected from the fantasy.

The third time--I just found myself doing it quite casually on my way out the door--I found myself on a narrow tower or platform in a desert--absolutely nowhere else to go--off I stepped, down and then a kind of splat and my awareness seemed then kind of expanded out, but unwavering, unaffected.

why do you think people find it so difficult to fall to the bottom?

My response now, after having done it, seems a bit different than before--it's something to do with seeing the trick of identification--when I 'veered off' the second time, the thoughts were something like 'i don't want to experience the death' but later when there was no 'death' it seemed more like what 'I' really didn't want to see was this identity-less awareness. Don't know if this makes sense.

I was on the edge of an insight earlier as i explored the experience/experiencer question--it's something to do with the way I have been privileging certain thoughts--giving them a status that they don't have. Right now there is the experience of, say, fingers moving on the keyboard and then there is another experience of thinking--maybe "I don't know what to say next"--it's an i-flavored experience not an "I" experiencing or being experienced.

So in my convoluted way I think I am saying that I can't find anything having the experience--but I think i am beginning to notice the experience of thinking 'I am having this experience' as an experience.

What fun!

[Paulo]

Hi Katie, very nicely done on the jump test!

I'm afraid of heights and even in this imagining I could feel a sense of vertigo

Isn't it amazing that even though the laws of physics don't apply to imagination there is still fear of height. Our character can walk through walls, fly, breath underwater, turn into any shape or animal that can be imagined, but still we can fear the death of that character.

That's one of the functions of that test - to see that the character is just that, a fictional character, who can walk off buildings and not be in the slightest bit hurt or imjured. Try it also jumping into the sea and sinking to the bottom - noticing again the pysical bodies reaction, and see if you can reach the bottom of the ocean. Once you get the swing of it you'll begin to see that the 'I' in imagaination isn't as real as you believe it to be. Other ideas could include - changing shape, growing extra arms, walking through walls ... basically anything a superhero, or magical being from a storybook can do. Really, give it a go, pick one to do as you fall asleep at night and have a bit of fun, and see what happens.

the thoughts were something like 'i don't want to experience the death' but later when there was no 'death' it seemed more like what 'I' really didn't want to see was this identity-less awareness. Don't know if this makes sense.

Yes, that makes perfect sense. The fear is there because there is a belief that something is there to die, or to lose. But when you completed the exercise you saw there was never any danger at all, because your character 'I' is purely an imaginery experience and has no basis in reality.

So in my convoluted way I think I am saying that I can't find anything having the experience--but I think i am beginning to notice the experience of thinking 'I am having this experience' as an experience.

Hmm, very nice indeed. There is only experience, and as you point out, even the awareness of having an experience is an experience itself.

Is there anything observing this experience taking place, that is actually seperate from that experience?

Paulo.

[katiegmorrow]

Dear Paolo,

Try it also jumping into the sea and sinking to the bottom

Ahoy from the undersea world--actually I found this a bit difficult. I kept getting confused between am I imagining the "real" me or an imaginary me. It took me a surprisingly long time to work out that it was ALL the imaginary me, and from that point of view it didn't matter if I was drowning or swimming like a fish. The other thing I noticed was that awareness can go anywhere--it was a lovely feeling even if it was imaginary--this sense of unrestrictedness. At the same time, i kept noticing how uptight I felt. As if years of conditioning myself to be "more realistic" were being undermined. Naughty, naughty!

Today has been quite busy and it seems I still need a bit of quiet and space to really look at experience--but I have enjoyed the flashing in and out of the possibility of simply relaxing.

thank you again for your attention, which is such a help.

katie

[Paulo]

Hi Katie, thanks for responding with the account of your voyage to the deep :-)

Ahoy from the undersea world--actually I found this a bit difficult. I kept getting confused between am I imagining the "real" me or an imaginary me. It took me a surprisingly long time to work out that it was ALL the imaginary me, and from that point of view it didn't matter if I was drowning or swimming like a fish. The other thing I noticed was that awareness can go anywhere--it was a lovely feeling even if it was imaginary--this sense of unrestrictedness. At the same time, i kept noticing how uptight I felt. As if years of conditioning myself to be "more realistic" were being undermined. Naughty, naughty!

Very nicely done, I'm impressed. And yes, it's all an imaginary character that is believed to be real, and so it's not suprising if the mind tries to keep it from harm. It's all belief, all an illusion, and when you see through that illusion ... poof! what freedom!

I'm not suprsied the body felt uptight, again, believing there was a danger. Exactly the same happens when we imagine having an arguement, our body tenses, believing it real. Same thing is we think of a love, the body reacts accordingly, believing it real.

And that is ultimatey the next step in this little exercise - keep imagining the scenarios above, but also in your day to day life notice ANY thought that appears. Notice how the body reacts, what feelings are there, and the thoughts too, and simply ask - is this actually happening in the here and now ... or is it something I'm believing to be true?

It's my pleasure to guide you Katie, and I look forward to your response on the 'experiencer question'.

Paulo.