Still on your Vedic Horoscope BTW. Its funny I had just written this to a friend earlier on:
'Hey that's alright! We all run away sometimes, and have been doing it for lifetimes, but look, let's just coax ourselves gently back to those cuddly old cremation grounds that have always been worth facing since we were young Mitras, you know it makes sense amigo!'...
Requesting a guide
Re: Requesting a guide
Sorry, I intended to respond today and ended up with another back-to-back day. Now I'm too tired to be coherent. (short on sleep again -- ARGHH). I have been reflecting on how I am "selfing" all the time with my thoughts. Seeing how unhelpful it typically is. Wondering how I can let go of it. That's basically where I am still.
Re: Requesting a guide
OK, I can answer these questions.
I AM, however, still wondering how I am to go about letting go of these thoughts.
I now remember why I didn't respond. It wasn't because I was avoiding responding. It was because the answer was too obvious. I can sit here and contemplate them, but the answer is still the same: NO to all of them.Are your thoughts the real you? Are thoughts your 'self'?
Do you really want to be identified as your thoughts?
Especially when they are sometimes as unhelpful as those ones were?
Can a thought really be 'your' 'self' if it just arrives unchosen and takes up unwanted residence?
Can a thought actually DO anything?
Thought was not even capable of reminding you that metta is the way forward here. You already knew that but 'thought' did not even bother to wheel that one out for you, an item that you tell students about all the time.
Can we seriously rely on thought since we don't know where it comes from, and don't know where it goes to when it goes, and we don't know when the next one will arrive!?
There is never more than one thought experienced at any given time. Thought is just so limited! It's like a one note instrument compared to the symphonic possibilities of that fuller awareness which becomes available when we leave thought aside for a bit, de-emphasise its centrality in our lives, and instead just 'be'. Just savouring our direct experience of the Universe.
I AM, however, still wondering how I am to go about letting go of these thoughts.
Re: Requesting a guide
OK Great to hear back from you Tara. More from me later.
Re: Requesting a guide
Tara33 said:
"I now remember why I didn't respond. It wasn't because I was avoiding responding. It was because the answer was too obvious. I can sit here and contemplate them, but the answer is still the same: NO to all of them.
I AM, however, still wondering how I am to go about letting go of these thoughts"
OK, now frustration with this aspect of the Dharma is par for the course, frustration with the Guide is also par for the course but I must caution you to beware tending towards frustration with your self. There can be costs with that one and delay is the salient cost here.
Remember, you are objectively doing the best you can. Yes I know that is an objective truth which is liberally applied to people who are not very bright but in your case that forms no part of the story!
Your mind is fast it leaps ahead and solves things sometimes without full emotional consultation! You have probably rarely needed it to get results because you are sufficiently sharp. (I assure you that you will get it. I say that because our once wide ranging game of ping-pong, has become more and more closed down, more and more narrow in its refinement of focus !)
Take a few Kindly breaths here and now, just sitting there in front of your monitor...
You 'already know' that there is only ever the present moment. You know that there is never ever any moment other than the present one. However, right now as you sit there on that chair in front of your screen I am now asking you to actually GO there...to open up to this present moment as though there had been no previous one and as though there would be nothing to follow it either. Be at least 70% in your body here. Is there a self anywhere in your present direct experience?
Don't be fooled by thought:
'I' is just a thought
'self' is just a thought
'me' is just a thought
Don't worry about recurrent selfing. That still occurs post Gating too. Its just weight of habit.
And, remember, remember, remember:
1.The Buddha did not teach that there was no delusion of self
(There is plainly a recurrent delusion of one!).
2. Instead he taught that there is no actual self, in actual verifiable fact.
(simply because there never has been one).
3. He did not teach that there are five skandhas PLUS a self. Instead he taught that there are just the five skandhas and nothing more.
Please reflect on these last three numbered items at some length in a spirit of relaxing and letting go, as I think you might have missed it before.
"I now remember why I didn't respond. It wasn't because I was avoiding responding. It was because the answer was too obvious. I can sit here and contemplate them, but the answer is still the same: NO to all of them.
I AM, however, still wondering how I am to go about letting go of these thoughts"
OK, now frustration with this aspect of the Dharma is par for the course, frustration with the Guide is also par for the course but I must caution you to beware tending towards frustration with your self. There can be costs with that one and delay is the salient cost here.
Remember, you are objectively doing the best you can. Yes I know that is an objective truth which is liberally applied to people who are not very bright but in your case that forms no part of the story!
Your mind is fast it leaps ahead and solves things sometimes without full emotional consultation! You have probably rarely needed it to get results because you are sufficiently sharp. (I assure you that you will get it. I say that because our once wide ranging game of ping-pong, has become more and more closed down, more and more narrow in its refinement of focus !)
Take a few Kindly breaths here and now, just sitting there in front of your monitor...
You 'already know' that there is only ever the present moment. You know that there is never ever any moment other than the present one. However, right now as you sit there on that chair in front of your screen I am now asking you to actually GO there...to open up to this present moment as though there had been no previous one and as though there would be nothing to follow it either. Be at least 70% in your body here. Is there a self anywhere in your present direct experience?
Don't be fooled by thought:
'I' is just a thought
'self' is just a thought
'me' is just a thought
Don't worry about recurrent selfing. That still occurs post Gating too. Its just weight of habit.
And, remember, remember, remember:
1.The Buddha did not teach that there was no delusion of self
(There is plainly a recurrent delusion of one!).
2. Instead he taught that there is no actual self, in actual verifiable fact.
(simply because there never has been one).
3. He did not teach that there are five skandhas PLUS a self. Instead he taught that there are just the five skandhas and nothing more.
Please reflect on these last three numbered items at some length in a spirit of relaxing and letting go, as I think you might have missed it before.
Re: Requesting a guide
Don't make the typical mistake of the experienced Buddhist on recognising standard Dharmic formulations, by prematurely deciding "Oh heck, I KNOW all this stuff!"
Just sit there, anew to each moment in direct experience and allow those last three items to REALLY SOAK IN, with Beginners Mind.
Just sit there, anew to each moment in direct experience and allow those last three items to REALLY SOAK IN, with Beginners Mind.
Re: Requesting a guide
I hope your day retreat went well today!
I did as you advised this morning. When I woke up this morning, I lay awake in bed for a while, just being fully in the moment, in my body, eyes closed, for quite a while. It's a wonderful feeling, first thing in the morning, to savor the soft warmth of the blankets, etc. I do it every morning, but I really paid close attention this morning. Stayed there for 30 minutes or so. I focused in particular on the 5 skandhas -- cycling through each one, not in an intellectual sense, but really sensing what was my direct experience of that skandha in that moment.
Then i got up and pulled out my copy of Know Your Mind, and reread the pages describing the skandhas, in particular vijnana -- which is what I confuse with "self". I found it helpful to read the bit about there being objective and subjective poles of one experience. That got me to realize that I could approach this in a more expansive way, rather than the detailed, focused examination I've been doing lately.
So I next did my yoga, being as fully in my body as I could, but also being expansive. As if my body and my 'self' were extending outward to those birds I hear singing outside. After all, that's where my vijnana was. Then I moved into my sitting practice, and did just pure awareness with period of touching down into self-metta (which to me is to touch down into my physical sense of ease and comfort, and sort of give myself a metaphorical hug). Same general approach as during yoga, expansive awareness of all phenomenon passing through me.
All told, I soaked in all of this for about 2 hours. As you advised, I kept my awareness here and now, as if there was only this present moment, and there never was any other.
Yes I see that there is no self I can identify in any of my experience. The skandhas leave no room for anything else in my experience but just those 5.
Now what? I'm still in the same place I was yesterday.
And yes, I know you are busy this weekend, so I will not expect to hear much from you. But I'll just keep going. I feel like I'm just mostly just doing the same thing over and over, but that's all I can figure out to do.
I did as you advised this morning. When I woke up this morning, I lay awake in bed for a while, just being fully in the moment, in my body, eyes closed, for quite a while. It's a wonderful feeling, first thing in the morning, to savor the soft warmth of the blankets, etc. I do it every morning, but I really paid close attention this morning. Stayed there for 30 minutes or so. I focused in particular on the 5 skandhas -- cycling through each one, not in an intellectual sense, but really sensing what was my direct experience of that skandha in that moment.
Then i got up and pulled out my copy of Know Your Mind, and reread the pages describing the skandhas, in particular vijnana -- which is what I confuse with "self". I found it helpful to read the bit about there being objective and subjective poles of one experience. That got me to realize that I could approach this in a more expansive way, rather than the detailed, focused examination I've been doing lately.
So I next did my yoga, being as fully in my body as I could, but also being expansive. As if my body and my 'self' were extending outward to those birds I hear singing outside. After all, that's where my vijnana was. Then I moved into my sitting practice, and did just pure awareness with period of touching down into self-metta (which to me is to touch down into my physical sense of ease and comfort, and sort of give myself a metaphorical hug). Same general approach as during yoga, expansive awareness of all phenomenon passing through me.
All told, I soaked in all of this for about 2 hours. As you advised, I kept my awareness here and now, as if there was only this present moment, and there never was any other.
Yes I see that there is no self I can identify in any of my experience. The skandhas leave no room for anything else in my experience but just those 5.
Now what? I'm still in the same place I was yesterday.
And yes, I know you are busy this weekend, so I will not expect to hear much from you. But I'll just keep going. I feel like I'm just mostly just doing the same thing over and over, but that's all I can figure out to do.
Re: Requesting a guide
This is just fine Tara!
Great observations. It looks to me very much as though our time on here is very nearly finished.
More from me later on closing in and closing down!
Great observations. It looks to me very much as though our time on here is very nearly finished.
More from me later on closing in and closing down!
Re: Requesting a guide
OK let's go!
Just sit there, take some breaths in metta and take this in: The aim of this inquiry is not to give security. It is to see through illusion to reality. And in that process, we find that the person looking for security doesn’t exist. Then the need for finding security and the need for answers falls away, too.
Nothing changes after awakening. It is just a way to see things differently, without a “self” involved, and without thoughts gripping the mind for hours about who and how you are. This is a peace.
In awakening, the belief in a solid, controlling self is dropped. All of a sudden it is seen there really wasn’t anything to do, because nothing could be done. It is the realizing that there is nothing to realize. Thoughts arise, the body acts, and life is lived, but it is not happening to anyone.
What we are doing here is not about a state of oneness. It’s not about a fleeting state that comes and goes. It does not require meditation or sitting in silence. It is about showing the mind what is real and what is imaginary.
We are not going to take anything away. What you take to be your self is an illusion. We are simply going to see this. We will see how this delusion distorts reality and causes all of your suffering.
Can you remember some occasion when you realized that something you previously believed to be true, actually wasn’t? Have you ever come to realize that your views on something prevented you from seeing the thing as it is? Probably yes. So how would the world change if “you” didn’t exist? What if everything you had believed to be “you” was be seen to be an illusion? That’s one description of awakening. You see that you are not the body, feelings, or thoughts.
We’re not looking for a specific kind of feeling, or even something out-of-the-ordinary. We’re looking to see what has always already been the case no separation. No “in here,” no “out there,” no “me here, the rest of the world out there.” It’s always been like this and will always be like this.
If there is no belief in a separate “you,” then there are no expectations. Life is just experience unfolding. Expectations are nothing more than thoughts.
All we are doing here is seeing through the illusion that there is a separate self. You are not going to change your stripes for spots. You are not going to become a saint. You will not disappear. You never were in the first place. The world will be the same world you are experiencing now. The difference is that the story of self will be seen through; the chattering of mind that cries ownership will be seen to be a lie; the thoughts that busily smooth over the holes in experience will be seen to be fantasy. You will simply notice that you have a new perspective, and that you no longer believe in a separate self.
Look closely at the most precious beliefs that are close to the heart, those in the “no-touch” zone. They are the ones that you really need to inspect up close. You will recognize them by the feeling of resistance. Follow resistance. It is here to let you know that another bit of the lie is sitting somewhere, waiting to be noticed.
Realization feels like waking up in a dream. You haven’t left the dream, and nothing looks any different, but there is a feeling that whatever you are is vastly different than what you have previously taken yourself to be. This realization creates a feeling of wonder. You will see at a deeper level how powerful the illusion created by the mind is.
Just sit there, take some breaths in metta and take this in: The aim of this inquiry is not to give security. It is to see through illusion to reality. And in that process, we find that the person looking for security doesn’t exist. Then the need for finding security and the need for answers falls away, too.
Nothing changes after awakening. It is just a way to see things differently, without a “self” involved, and without thoughts gripping the mind for hours about who and how you are. This is a peace.
In awakening, the belief in a solid, controlling self is dropped. All of a sudden it is seen there really wasn’t anything to do, because nothing could be done. It is the realizing that there is nothing to realize. Thoughts arise, the body acts, and life is lived, but it is not happening to anyone.
What we are doing here is not about a state of oneness. It’s not about a fleeting state that comes and goes. It does not require meditation or sitting in silence. It is about showing the mind what is real and what is imaginary.
We are not going to take anything away. What you take to be your self is an illusion. We are simply going to see this. We will see how this delusion distorts reality and causes all of your suffering.
Can you remember some occasion when you realized that something you previously believed to be true, actually wasn’t? Have you ever come to realize that your views on something prevented you from seeing the thing as it is? Probably yes. So how would the world change if “you” didn’t exist? What if everything you had believed to be “you” was be seen to be an illusion? That’s one description of awakening. You see that you are not the body, feelings, or thoughts.
We’re not looking for a specific kind of feeling, or even something out-of-the-ordinary. We’re looking to see what has always already been the case no separation. No “in here,” no “out there,” no “me here, the rest of the world out there.” It’s always been like this and will always be like this.
If there is no belief in a separate “you,” then there are no expectations. Life is just experience unfolding. Expectations are nothing more than thoughts.
All we are doing here is seeing through the illusion that there is a separate self. You are not going to change your stripes for spots. You are not going to become a saint. You will not disappear. You never were in the first place. The world will be the same world you are experiencing now. The difference is that the story of self will be seen through; the chattering of mind that cries ownership will be seen to be a lie; the thoughts that busily smooth over the holes in experience will be seen to be fantasy. You will simply notice that you have a new perspective, and that you no longer believe in a separate self.
Look closely at the most precious beliefs that are close to the heart, those in the “no-touch” zone. They are the ones that you really need to inspect up close. You will recognize them by the feeling of resistance. Follow resistance. It is here to let you know that another bit of the lie is sitting somewhere, waiting to be noticed.
Realization feels like waking up in a dream. You haven’t left the dream, and nothing looks any different, but there is a feeling that whatever you are is vastly different than what you have previously taken yourself to be. This realization creates a feeling of wonder. You will see at a deeper level how powerful the illusion created by the mind is.
Re: Requesting a guide
I was intrigued by your question about examining my most precious beliefs. I zeroed in on this strong compulsion I have to achieve, to make something of myself. And underneath that, I see that there is a part of me that really really did not want to believe that my self doesn't exist. It just did not want to let go of that view. "I" am a person, damn it! Ah, very interesting!
So I sat with that view for most of the day yesterday, picking it apart. The question I asked you previously about free will continued to bug me. And so, one by one, I asked myself how everything could have happened purely as a result of pratitya samutpada, and without "me" as the agent behind it. Well, thoughts of inspiration/aspiration arise when triggered by some event. I feel motivated to do something (which is just a thought) as a result of some event or condition. Some conditions are deeply rooted – like family or societal conditioning that has created my compulsion to achieve. But did "I" create them? No, not really.
Once again, I'm coming to see that there really is no self there. Even in the middle of this ego that insists that it's there, that it's important. At the beginning of the day, the emotional weight behind this ego was very strong and imposing. But now, it's looking far less so.
So I sat with that view for most of the day yesterday, picking it apart. The question I asked you previously about free will continued to bug me. And so, one by one, I asked myself how everything could have happened purely as a result of pratitya samutpada, and without "me" as the agent behind it. Well, thoughts of inspiration/aspiration arise when triggered by some event. I feel motivated to do something (which is just a thought) as a result of some event or condition. Some conditions are deeply rooted – like family or societal conditioning that has created my compulsion to achieve. But did "I" create them? No, not really.
Once again, I'm coming to see that there really is no self there. Even in the middle of this ego that insists that it's there, that it's important. At the beginning of the day, the emotional weight behind this ego was very strong and imposing. But now, it's looking far less so.
Re: Requesting a guide
You're looking real good soldier! OK. Now let's get you home!
But look, you are; "...'COMING' to see..."? Well, which is it? DO you see or do you NOT see?
"Even in the middle of this ego that insists that it's there,.."
Don't be concerned about the above habit expressing itself. It will continue to do so even post Gate sometimes. It is simply nothing more than a thought, papancha. My question here is; 'but do you really believe that thought now?' ie, Given that you have seen that you are not your thoughts, that those are demonstrably insubstantial, and that all sorts of crappy thoughts come up from time to time, because thoughts sometimes just do crappy stories anyway.
"But now, it's looking 'FAR LESS' so."? This just sounds a shade too provisional. As above with your; "'...COMING' too see...", you may have simply been being politely, academically respectable with this choice of phraseology. If so I completely understand and I totally respect that, however, what I am needing to see at this stage are words that are a more bald statement of the facts.
As usual my capitals are not shouting, they merely represent italicisation.
I find it hard to contain how pleased I am by your last post...but I will just contain it anyway!!!
Just keep it coming at me today! OK?
Smashing observations!Once again, I'm coming to see that there really is no self there. Even in the middle of this ego that insists that it's there, that it's important. At the beginning of the day, the emotional weight behind this ego was very strong and imposing. But now, it's looking far less so.
But look, you are; "...'COMING' to see..."? Well, which is it? DO you see or do you NOT see?
"Even in the middle of this ego that insists that it's there,.."
Don't be concerned about the above habit expressing itself. It will continue to do so even post Gate sometimes. It is simply nothing more than a thought, papancha. My question here is; 'but do you really believe that thought now?' ie, Given that you have seen that you are not your thoughts, that those are demonstrably insubstantial, and that all sorts of crappy thoughts come up from time to time, because thoughts sometimes just do crappy stories anyway.
"But now, it's looking 'FAR LESS' so."? This just sounds a shade too provisional. As above with your; "'...COMING' too see...", you may have simply been being politely, academically respectable with this choice of phraseology. If so I completely understand and I totally respect that, however, what I am needing to see at this stage are words that are a more bald statement of the facts.
As usual my capitals are not shouting, they merely represent italicisation.
I find it hard to contain how pleased I am by your last post...but I will just contain it anyway!!!
Just keep it coming at me today! OK?
Re: Requesting a guide
Yesterday you said;
"Yes I see that there is no self I can identify in any of my experience. The skandhas leave no room for anything else in my experience but just those 5."
So have you now 'got it'? Have you now seen that the notion of 'self' is nothing more than a delusion sustained by habit?
"Yes I see that there is no self I can identify in any of my experience. The skandhas leave no room for anything else in my experience but just those 5."
So have you now 'got it'? Have you now seen that the notion of 'self' is nothing more than a delusion sustained by habit?
Re: Requesting a guide
I knew you'd be pleased, but no, I haven't "got it" yet.
As far as the provisional words, well, I used them on purpose. Because I do see those things in those particular examples, no doubt about it. But my damned ego is still not thoroughly convinced. It's still working overtime trying to come up with other examples to justify its existence. My mind knows it won't find one. But IT doesn't know yet.
As far as the provisional words, well, I used them on purpose. Because I do see those things in those particular examples, no doubt about it. But my damned ego is still not thoroughly convinced. It's still working overtime trying to come up with other examples to justify its existence. My mind knows it won't find one. But IT doesn't know yet.
Re: Requesting a guide
Fine! This is beautifully honest stuff which only helps matters along:
And just do more of that kindly savouring of the material we have covered so far. Just revisit and keep mindful of your stuff below from earlier today:
[[Postby tara33 » June 16th, 2013, 11:35 am
I was intrigued by your question about examining my most precious beliefs. I zeroed in on this strong compulsion I have to achieve, to make something of myself. And underneath that, I see that there is a part of me that really really did not want to believe that my self doesn't exist. It just did not want to let go of that view. "I" am a person, damn it! Ah, very interesting!
So I sat with that view for most of the day yesterday, picking it apart. The question I asked you previously about free will continued to bug me. And so, one by one, I asked myself how everything could have happened purely as a result of pratitya samutpada, and without "me" as the agent behind it. Well, thoughts of inspiration/aspiration arise when triggered by some event. I feel motivated to do something (which is just a thought) as a result of some event or condition. Some conditions are deeply rooted – like family or societal conditioning that has created my compulsion to achieve. But did "I" create them? No, not really.]]
Just let things continue to soak in, and you will be fine.
Right, just go back again to that lovely work you were doing above, detailed in your post of yesterday, June 15th 12:16.As far as the provisional words, well, I used them on purpose. Because I do see those things in those particular examples, no doubt about it. But my damned ego is still not thoroughly convinced. It's still working overtime trying to come up with other examples to justify its existence. My mind knows it won't find one. But IT doesn't know yet.
And just do more of that kindly savouring of the material we have covered so far. Just revisit and keep mindful of your stuff below from earlier today:
[[Postby tara33 » June 16th, 2013, 11:35 am
I was intrigued by your question about examining my most precious beliefs. I zeroed in on this strong compulsion I have to achieve, to make something of myself. And underneath that, I see that there is a part of me that really really did not want to believe that my self doesn't exist. It just did not want to let go of that view. "I" am a person, damn it! Ah, very interesting!
So I sat with that view for most of the day yesterday, picking it apart. The question I asked you previously about free will continued to bug me. And so, one by one, I asked myself how everything could have happened purely as a result of pratitya samutpada, and without "me" as the agent behind it. Well, thoughts of inspiration/aspiration arise when triggered by some event. I feel motivated to do something (which is just a thought) as a result of some event or condition. Some conditions are deeply rooted – like family or societal conditioning that has created my compulsion to achieve. But did "I" create them? No, not really.]]
Just let things continue to soak in, and you will be fine.
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