Looking for a guide

[otterrivers]

(I wonder, why the preference for 'true self' rather than 'no self' if it is the same thing?)

ok. I can kind of see what you are saying there. if I am a small child though, that might strike a chord with me but probably not be understood well. make it super simple. how does a baby go from simply being life to acting like, and believing it is a self?
what is the difference between reality and this illusion of self?
what does the word self mean and why is it not real? I am just a little child asking ok? :)

and if a feeling of stuck happens, just write that. or wait til u feel you feel unstuck. but like I said, sometimes the answer ISN'T the words. ask the questions. look and see. report what is noticed. even if it seems not to be an answer to the questions, it may be a result of the question. just relax into it. you've got this. maybe a little detangling, or maybe not. nobody here is judging you. I just can't confirm for you that you have truly awakened to life as it always already really was (no self at all) without some more info from you so I am just digging deeper.

[Choki]

Well, the preference for ‘true self’ over ‘no self’ is really because this seems to be the reality, which is true. ‘No self’ is rather definitive, and who knows? We can enquire and then not find anything, but just because we can’t find anything it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, because what exists has to be beyond the one that is trying to find. Therefore it just is. It’s just a language thing really, and I prefer the idea of abundance over emptiness.

How does a baby go from being life to acting like, and believing it’s a self? Not meeting love in the eyes of another. Contracting away from pain. Needing to ensure physical survival. Without love and approval, it could get caste out of the tribe and die.

Reality is just the flow of things. The illusion of self inhibits the flow, cuts it down, shrinks the lifeforce.

If you were a little child asking, here with me, I wouldn’t be answering your questions in words like this, I would just take you by the hand and dance….

[otterrivers]

fair enough... about the telling a child about it. it's hard to remember. I can't remember when I started thinking I was 'me' either. but I have seen it happen to babies I have known. I don't want to explain it to you because telling you my experience is not going to cause any realization in you. mind understands what it is told. but true seeing (that "...OH!!!") only happens when you discover for yourself. all I can say is stick with this question for a while. if there is any chance for you to observe closely a child that is about 1year old, keep an eye on the changes and what seems to cause it. <3

for now, let's move to:
""who knows? We can enquire and then not find anything, but just because we can’t find anything it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, because what exists has to be beyond the one that is trying to find.""

this is a good area to continue exploring. you have not found a self but there seems to be a slight possibility that there IS a self that you just haven't found yet? I am not telling you this is true or not. you tell me... look at life. what is there outside of experience? I know the story "I cannot see my clothes in the drawer but I know when I open it, they will likely be there." or "I know if I get on an airplane I can go to Egypt and see the pyramids" and these are very useful stories/thoughts. but haven't we looked into what a thought is? yes something called 'thought' happens but is the content true? even if the story ends up matching the experience, was the thought ever really true? I mean was the content of the thought ever real? is Egypt real to you now? if you do ever go see it, does that mean the "Egypt" in your mind was real?
look and find where is there room in this very full experience (don't look at the thought "the world" just what is experienced now.) for a self to exist? where could it hide? outside of experience? in your mind with the other thoughts "past, present, inside the closed drawer? Egypt, the world"?

[otterrivers]

and if there is even POSSIBLY a 'myself', a seer, hearer, doer, experiencer... you should be able to find it right here, right? no need to say "who knows" just look now. in the experience, where is there an experience-er? if one is not found, where might it possibly be hiding? here is experience right here. a flood of sensation flowing, thoughts happening...

:) warmest regards. hope your eye is well! -otter

[Choki]

Thinking about the self – the ‘true self’ or ‘no self’ – the way I would make sense of it is that the true self isn’t what we normally think it is – it isn’t our thoughts, beliefs, reactions, etc. It isn’t the conditioned mind. But if there is a true self it is the unconditioned. It is everywhere and undefinable, free of the limitations of time and space and physical bodies. So, it’s not quite that I’m thinking there is a self somewhere that I might find but haven’t found it yet, just that the whole thing that I had previously taken to be myself, that I identified with, is an illusion, unreal.

When going beyond the present moment into fantasies of or fears of an imagined future, it seems like there can still be some identification with a 'self' that doesn't want to feel certain emotions or be seen in a certain way, etc. When I look for that self I can't find anything apart from a state of contraction in the body when feeling judged, for instance, and a desire to escape from that state. But, it is only thought that creates that state of separation, it is no more than a state of mind, which I can see when I'm not caught up in it, and no longer feel upset.

[otterrivers]

yeah I feel what you mean about "true self". all that is, right? that is undeniable. only when you say "this is what I am" or "I am all that is. it is my true self" ...what does the "I" or "My" mean there? see how tricky it can be? "there is no separate self. only the one-ness that is the true self. ...and 'I' have seen this. it is 'what I am'" HAHAHA

<"When going beyond the present moment into fantasies of or fears of an imagined future, it seems like there can still be some identification with a 'self' that doesn't want to feel certain emotions or be seen in a certain way">

Great. so you see here that there are some habitual thoughts of identification. but is anyone/anything thinking the thoughts? is there something that could try to think differently. things may change, but where is this "one who causes change?" It's perfectly ok to be right where you are (and there is no option anyway haha). If there is thoughts of identification and fears and wanting... these already exist without a self to experience them, so what is there to work on?

I have news for you:
You can't let go. it isn't possible. you can only look and truly see that you never had a grip. it was never possible to have a grip. what could grasp what? "letting go" is just accepting that you never had control. there was never a "you vs other".
A little child with a toy steering wheel in the car next to mommy may learn to steer the wheel the way mommy is doing it and start to really think they are steering. then if the car is going somewhere the child doesn't like and he/she turns the wheel and the car doesn't respond, there can be great suffering. like "something is wrong". you see? Imagine that child realizing "oh... I was never in control." :)

[otterrivers]

what do you feel about all this? I don't want to give you any new beliefs or convince you of anything. the real proof of this is felt, not spoken. check your feelings. we can talk and talk but the liberation isn't in the words. it's not to be figured out. do you feel it?
another word we could use for liberation is "relief". in your experience, has there been a noticeable feeling of relief? relief from what?

[Choki]

Well, things are changing - like when I had the eye problem, which was a bit scary, but my fears of what 'might happen' are seen to be just fantasies. There is relief from the feeling that anything has to be any different from how it is. It can't be any different, because this is how it is. This moment, which is just perfect. There seems to be a dropping of the 'should have', 'ought to', etc. Less of a running away from the actual feeling, to try and make things 'better', but more of an acceptance of how it is right now. And, as there's no option but to be here right now then actually there is a sense of relief in that.

I can imagine the child with the toy steering wheel thinking it's real would feel quite upset to see that someone else has control but he doesn't - and actually, I wonder if that's what causes this illusion of control and separation. If we think that others have control but we don't, then we will try desperately to gain that control so as not to feel powerless. If we're all really powerless anyway, it doesn't matter, if we all have toy steering wheels. Just a thought...

[Choki]

p.s. I'm going on hols for a week tomorrow so won't be writing for a while. Having a break from the computer and a bit more time outside : ) Just to let you know...

[otterrivers]

very good! glad to hear you are free from believing that the thoughts in your head are real-life. wonderful.
here's a question for when you return. where are you not free? is anything missing? are you through the gateless gate? by this I mean is it 100% obvious that there never was a self in life?

also, what is difference between now, and how life was before we started talking?

[Choki]

Well, it was nice to be away, just being in the moment, not having to think…. Coming back, seeing how thoughts of wanting things to be different from how they are can create a feeling of not being free – but actually, there is total freedom. I think of the Zen saying ‘Eat when you’re hungry, sleep when you’re tired’ – to just pay attention to what is needed in the moment, to flow with the river rather than against it, this is a much easier way… I guess the gateless gate is always there, it’s just that we focus on the obstacles we create in our minds to make it seem like the gate is either locked or non-existent.

I can’t remember what the difference is between now and when we first started talking – it seems so long ago – I’d rather keep walking through that gate than turn round to look at where I’ve been!

[otterrivers]

perfect. good to hear! some questions:
1) what is it that flows with the river or against it?
2) what do you find when looking for "myself". just describe from direct looking this moment.

3) also, would you say we are done here? what is your intuition? if so, tell me, can you remember any specific moment or insight that "pushed you over" or "made you look"?

I will be out of town from Thursday evening until sunday night (camping). take your time with the answers.

[Choki]

1. Only the river flows, just being, flowing, life….

2. There is no me to look for something that is just being.

I could say we are done, there is nothing left to do….but I am enjoying smelling the flowers along the way, happy to be on the journey rather than at its end. I’m not sure what ‘pushed me over’ or ‘made me look’, but it felt good to realise ‘I’ wasn’t alone. The feeling of being alone was the feeling of separation.

Hope you enjoyed the camping trip!

[otterrivers]

yes let's not think of any destination. smell the flowers (or smelling happens, we might say haha).
I'll have more questions until I don't. and you'll keep answering or you wont. beautiful. flow flow flow.
Even struggling against the flow is the flow. was it ever not flowing juuuuust right?

the camping trip was amazing. :)

[otterrivers]

I know these questions look familiar.
I've even asked some of these recently in other forms. but let's play pretend.

You've never seen these questions before ok?
this is the first time. No relying on past seeing or knowledge.
as if you have full amnesia and you can only look to what is seen right now in reality (not memory / thought) for answers.
Will you play?

You may take as long as you like. these questions are yours to investigate however you will. you can answer all at once or in parts. you can answer in numerical order or just pick which you'd like to answer in whatever order seems natural. with no thought of reaching any gate or any other conclusion.

after I've received all the answers, i'll have some more questions or I wont. pretty great huh? absolute freedom. just flowing and flower sniffing. ;) how could that be bad?