So close and yet...please help?

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter

OK. This is not meant to be patronising but do you actually know how to look. I ask this because you are involved in the story. You are seeing the story but you aren’t seeing the bit before the story takes hold, if that makes sense. Can you tell me how you look?

An example. You are sitting at the side of the road. You have been asked to count the purple cars only. How do you react to all the other colour cars? Do you involve yourself in them or simple see them and let them go?

I want you to try this again. Sit with the frustration, look at it. Treat it like a car that isn’t purple. Look to see if there is a feeling under the noise or an emotion. Look then for a thought or thoughts that may have attached themselves to that feeling. Look then for a story that may have followed the thoughts. Look for ‘I’ labels in the feeling, emotion and thoughts. Look and see if thoughts have looked for proof/evidence for this frustration. Be as clinical and as detached as possible. You have told me the story you have built on top but you need to dig under it to see what it is.

Feelings of inadequacy emerged saying: "It's not like you're being asked to climb Mount Everest here, you're only being asked to look and see if there is a self, and yet you can't do it well enough, what's wrong with you?"

If we look at this statement the emotion is obvious, the ‘I’ labels are all over it, the story is built because it sounds like a detailed well aimed criticism that makes you feel bad. So how did it start – the first thought may have been ‘I have to look’, then thoughts attach like – I don’t know how to look, what if I get it wrong?, why cant I look?, this should be easy!, whats wrong with me, everyone else seems to be able to do this……….! Then we have story. The proof and evidence bit comes from you looking around and thinking others, or me have done it so why cant you, or reading books etc. Does this make sense?

Where does story come from? What puts it there? Is it a thought or is it lots of thoughts? Look.

Sarah xx

[GateNudger]

Hi Sarah,

Thanks very much for your patience with me.

Reading your last post gives me the impression ( and I don't want to sound patronising either ) that you are a very sensitive, possibly artistic person who can easily discern very subtle layers within your own experience. I am more of a clod-hopper who couldn't spot a dead cow laying in my own bathroom.

I want you to try this again. Sit with the frustration, look at it.

This shows how I need to be much clearer in what I say to you, and I apologise for my failure in this. Whilst I have had some flashes of intense frustration over my lack of 'progress' in this investigation it's not the case that if I sit for a few minutes then waves of frustration will appear for me to inspect the strata leading up to it ( I have had no bouts of frustration today for instance ). In my last post I recounted to you all that I noticed when the frustration arose. I was not aware of any of the subtle precursors that you mention.

Can you tell me how you look?

A spontaneously arising ongoing, intense process of: whenever a thought, word, sensation or action emerges I look to see if they have arisen spontaneously or whether there was an "I" there that consciously made it happen. In every case so far I have seen that these things happen by themselves. I believe that if I keep on doing that then eventually the brain will accept the new paradigm and the self illusion will dissolve.

If this approach is inadequate I will make whatever adjustments I am capable of. I started a seven day water fast yesterday in the hope of gaining clearer perception, so hopefully that will turn me into less of a clod-hopper.

[Sarah7]

Reading your last post gives me the impression ( and I don't want to sound patronising either ) that you are a very sensitive, possibly artistic person who can easily discern very subtle layers within your own experience. I am more of a clod-hopper who couldn't spot a dead cow laying in my own bathroom.

Thank you for giving me a good laugh!

A spontaneously arising ongoing, intense process of: whenever a thought, word, sensation or action emerges I look to see if they have arisen spontaneously or whether there was an "I" there that consciously made it happen. In every case so far I have seen that these things happen by themselves.

Thank you.

I believe that if I keep on doing that then eventually the brain will accept the new paradigm and the self illusion will dissolve.

Yes this will happen, but more like re wiring. The connections get weak and break then reform somewhere else. Ill have to send you the link for this later as I don’t have it at present.

So can you find ‘I’? Or have you just found thoughts, sensations, labels etc? Might your frustration be coming from the fact that you are hunting for something that you really do ‘know’ cant be found but thoughts are telling you other? Look. What tells you to hurry up with this process? Is it ‘I’ or thoughts?
Sarah xx

[Sarah7]

Here is the link I wanted to show you. Let me know if it doesnt work. Sarah xx

https://www.dropbox.com/s/mskv8uxmnmf2f ... _Being.mp4

[GateNudger]

Yes this will happen, but more like re wiring. The connections get weak and break then reform somewhere else.

I was confused by this, Sarah. Are you saying that the type of looking that I said I do doesn't result in a permanent awakening? The book describes the process like this: "This is not deep. It is just looking directly in your experience to see if whether there is a "you" doing the experiencing or whether experiencing is just being experienced." Is the looking that I described in my previous post not what is being advised here? If not, I would be very grateful if you could spell out to me, in a way that a 10 year old child could understand, what I have missed.

So can you find ‘I’? Or have you just found thoughts, sensations, labels etc?

I can't find "I", only thoughts, sensations, labels etc.

Might your frustration be coming from the fact that you are hunting for something that you really do ‘know’ cant be found but thoughts are telling you other?

If I knew that the self is an illusion, I would be through the gate. In my understanding, those who have 'gone through the gate', know that they are through. They don't doubt the non-existence of the self. For me, there are still doubts even though I can't give you any explanation for that beyond saying, 'maybe if I spent more time looking I would find an instance of a self at work'. I have no belief or expectation that that will happen.

What tells you to hurry up with this process? Is it ‘I’ or thoughts?

It is most definitely thoughts.

I have re-read your previous posts and still can't spot any 'forerunners' of the frustration that I feel. This is in itself frustrating for me as you seem to imply that they must be there and I am just not noticing them. If it is important to notice these 'forerunners' can you please spell out to me why it is important. If my failure in this respect might be the 'missing piece of the jig-saw' here, I will devote myself to trying to find them.

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter

I was confused by this, Sarah. Are you saying that the type of looking that I said I do doesn't result in a permanent awakening? The book describes the process like this: "This is not deep. It is just looking directly in your experience to see if whether there is a "you" doing the experiencing or whether experiencing is just being experienced." Is the looking that I described in my previous post not what is being advised here? If not, I would be very grateful if you could spell out to me, in a way that a 10 year old child could understand, what I have missed.

Did you watch the clip? Did it work?
Where does it say that there is a permanent awakening? Is this another expectation? That you believe the light will go on and that’s that? Are you waiting for the ‘Ah ha’ moment? Still expecting self to disappear?
The type of looking you are doing is fine.

"This is not deep. It is just looking directly in your experience to see if whether there is a "you" doing the experiencing or whether experiencing is just being experienced."

I can't find "I", only thoughts, sensations, labels etc.

So what else do you need to know? You cant find ‘I’.

If I knew that the self is an illusion, I would be through the gate. In my understanding, those who have 'gone through the gate', know that they are through.

Again – another expectation? This is not my experience. And how do you ‘know’ you are not through the gate? Expectations are not helpful – they get in the way of looking because it turns into expecting. Comparisons to others are not helpful either.

They don't doubt the non-existence of the self. For me, there are still doubts even though I can't give you any explanation for that beyond saying, 'maybe if I spent more time looking I would find an instance of a self at work'. I have no belief or expectation that that will happen.

The doubts are what? Look and see if the doubts are doubting thoughts. If you cant find an ‘I’ now – are you going to find one later on? Is it hiding?

I have re-read your previous posts and still can't spot any 'forerunners' of the frustration that I feel. This is in itself frustrating for me as you seem to imply that they must be there and I am just not noticing them. If it is important to notice these 'forerunners' can you please spell out to me why it is important. If my failure in this respect might be the 'missing piece of the jig-saw' here, I will devote myself to trying to find them.

It may just be that the thoughts are so quick you have not caught them. The exercise was not to add anymore failure story onto you. The exercise was to get you to look. Once looking starts there is more and more noticing.

Sarah xx

[GateNudger]

Thanks Sarah.

Did you watch the clip?

Yes, it was great. Looks like my doubts over the non-existence of the self are due to there still being a bit of synaptic 'glue' left connecting certain neurons.

Where does it say that there is a permanent awakening?

The book says:

Ilona: "Is there any doubt at all?"

Garsius: "Nope, there is no doubt. "I" can still return but it is always clear that it is not me."

Ilona: "Perfect."

Also:

Ilona: "Once you find that Santa is not real can you believe that he is real again? Doubt can come up and it does. But what has been seen can never be unseen."

Do these comments not indicate a permanent awakening?

how do you ‘know’ you are not through the gate?

For me, ( unlike Garsius ) it is not 'always clear that the "I" is not me', and so I can't be through the gate.

Expectations are not helpful – they get in the way of looking because it turns into expecting.

Yes, I can see how that would be true. The book warns against having expectations but it clearly promotes the idea that liberation is possible and that when it happens it will be unmistakable:

Elena: "When you see it, you will not stop laughing, seriously."

This gives me the expectation that liberation can happen and that when it does happen I will be certain that it has happened.

It may just be that the thoughts are so quick you have not caught them. The exercise was not to add anymore failure story onto you. The exercise was to get you to look. Once looking starts there is more and more noticing.

This is very encouraging. I have had thoughts lately saying: "The reason your doubts persist despite your only seeing things happening automatically is that you are rubbish at looking. If you were more discerning you would see that on occasion the self does step in and consciously decide things. It's just that this happens so quickly that you aren't noticing it."

It's heartening to think that my perception will sharpen up and that I will get better at seeing the absence of the self and that this will lead to the disappearance of that last bit of synaptic 'glue'.

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter

Doubt can come up and it does.

This is part of the quote too.

The book warns against having expectations but it clearly promotes the idea that liberation is possible and that when it happens it will be unmistakable:
Elena: "When you see it, you will not stop laughing, seriously."
This gives me the expectation that liberation can happen and that when it does happen I will be certain that it has happened.

There you are saying it out loud! This gives me the expectation. You are expecting the exact same experience. You will not get it. Expectations stop looking – period. Put the book down and look.

I have had thoughts lately saying: "The reason your doubts persist despite your only seeing things happening automatically is that you are rubbish at looking. If you were more discerning you would see that on occasion the self does step in and consciously decide things. It's just that this happens so quickly that you aren't noticing it."

When and where does the self decide anything? Or is this the thought saying this? Look.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

Imagine you are watching weather outside your window. Each day something new. Each minute different. Thoughts are like this. Watch them. Each day something new. Each minute different. Do you wish to hold all thoughts and not let them go? Is that possible? Or do they change like the weather?

It's heartening to think that my perception will sharpen up and that I will get better at seeing the absence of the self and that this will lead to the disappearance of that last bit of synaptic 'glue'.

Instead of seeing the absence of self, notice when you think its there and then look carefully. Check to see if you are really seeing self or if it is something else that you are mistaking for self. LOOK.
Sarah xx

[GateNudger]

Thank you Sarah.

Put the book down and look.

Yes, time spent reading the book could be spent looking. I won't read it again.

Instead of seeing the absence of self, notice when you think its there and then look carefully.

After reading this the looking went up a gear. I am now sitting down and trying to consciously move my fingers. This is going 'mano a mano' with the illusion. If I consciously can move my fingers then there is a self; there has to be. Of course, I am finding that the thought: "now I'm going to move my fingers" is arising spontaneously and, the action of moving my fingers is also happening by itself. This is a 'game-changer' for me. In doing this there is clearly no way a self can hide away. If there is a self it would be forced to come out into the open here. It feels like you have put me onto something that will inevitably lead to the dissolving of the illusion. Thank you very much, Sarah. I will pursue this relentlessly now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

Yes, I saw this on Horizon last year and it made a powerful impression on me. Gary Weber said recently that he spoke at a conference of Neuro-scientists in Stockholm and the issue for them wasn't 'is free will an illusion?' but rather 'should the public be told that it is an illusion?'

I suppose the looking that I am doing is a kind of scientific experiment: The thesis says 'there is no self', and I am rigorously testing to see if that thesis is true or not.

Do you wish to hold all thoughts and not let them go? Is that possible? Or do they change like the weather?

They change like the weather, and like the weather, they have no conscious controller.

A stumbling block for me had been that when I sit and try to move my fingers there are long gaps between thoughts and movements. I had thought this could be the self 'gearing-up' to do it's thing but I can see now that those gaps are occurring spontaneously too. The unconscious brain is highly complex and subtle but that complexity and subtlety shouldn't be interpreted as a self at work.

LOOK.

My looking since your last post has got an excitement about it. Before it seemed like hard slog that wasn't 'getting me anywhere'. Now, it seems like I am 'onto something'.

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter

I am now sitting down and trying to consciously move my fingers. This is going 'mano a mano' with the illusion. If I consciously can move my fingers then there is a self; there has to be. Of course, I am finding that the thought: "now I'm going to move my fingers" is arising spontaneously and, the action of moving my fingers is also happening by itself. This is a 'game-changer' for me. In doing this there is clearly no way a self can hide away. If there is a self it would be forced to come out into the open here. It feels like you have put me onto something that will inevitably lead to the dissolving of the illusion. Thank you very much, Sarah. I will pursue this relentlessly now.

A stumbling block for me had been that when I sit and try to move my fingers there are long gaps between thoughts and movements. I had thought this could be the self 'gearing-up' to do it's thing but I can see now that those gaps are occurring spontaneously too. The unconscious brain is highly complex and subtle but that complexity and subtlety shouldn't be interpreted as a self at work.

Try the touching and/or moving experiment. A hand can move and the thoughts that match the movement will lay claim – ‘look what I did, I have moved a finger – there proof, ‘I’ exist!' Look at these thoughts and see where they come in. However also see movement when ‘I’ is not doing it – you will find that movement works just find without ‘I’. ‘I’ does not claim all movement – but it still happens.

Also try stopping thoughts? If ‘I’ exists and it is the controller then it can stop thought! Look and see if it works!

Again – what wants to pursue relentlessly? Is that a thought also?

Sarah xx

[Sarah7]

Sorry - extra bit!

Look at thoughts see if you can tell the difference between useful thoughts and story thoughts (ones that trigger emotion)? Count how many times you recognise the story thoughts. Once you start seeing them regularly - start laughing or smiling - or whatever happens naturally.

This is the rewiring thing! This exercise is really good for that - especially the laughing bit!

Enjoy xx

[GateNudger]

Hi Sarah,

A hand can move and the thoughts that match the movement will lay claim – ‘look what I did, I have moved a finger – there proof, ‘I’ exist!' Look at these thoughts and see where they come in.

In my finger moving experiment I start off with a thought: "Now I'm going to move my thumb backwards". The movement follows that thought but it does so without a "me" directing it. The thought itself has that same spontaneous quality about it, like it's just popping into my head from nowhere.

However also see movement when ‘I’ is not doing it – you will find that movement works just find without ‘I’. ‘I’ does not claim all movement – but it still happens.

Yes, this is very obvious to me. When I play the guitar it is clear that that is happening. The fact that it happens with complex things like guitar playing shows how redundant the "I" is. I find that most of my movements happen with "I" making no claims on them.

Also try stopping thoughts? If ‘I’ exists and it is the controller then it can stop thought! Look and see if it works!

If I firmly say to myself: "stop thinking!" there is a pause in thoughts but they start up again soon afterwards.

what wants to pursue relentlessly? Is that a thought also?

Yes, it is just a thought, accompanied by sensations in the body.

Look at thoughts see if you can tell the difference between useful thoughts and story thoughts

I can find lots of story thoughts but very few that are "useful". The story thoughts are often like heavy weather that cause strong visceral sensations. The visceral sensations sometimes seem to appear without any thoughts preceding them but often have thoughts following them-it can be hard to discern during the maelstrom. The "useful" thoughts seem to be mostly like calm, mild weather, like wispy clouds that I hardly notice. It's becoming obvious to me just how unclear I am about my 'inner landscape'. I think I have spent my life trying to distract myself from the unpleasantness of it all. Your questions are making me go into the 'haunted house' and get to know it better.

recognise the story thoughts. Once you start seeing them regularly - start laughing or smiling - or whatever happens naturally.

I haven't got to the smiling and laughing stage yet; the thoughts seem too intense and overwhelming for me to see the funny side of them.

This is the rewiring thing! This exercise is really good for that - especially the laughing bit!

Yes, I suppose the brain gets to see that this "I" is nothing other than a character in a story. It's obvious from what I wrote above that I have been deeply sucked into "my" story and have believed every word of it.

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter

In my finger moving experiment I start off with a thought: "Now I'm going to move my thumb backwards". The movement follows that thought but it does so without a "me" directing it. The thought itself has that same spontaneous quality about it, like it's just popping into my head from nowhere.

Exactly.

When I play the guitar it is clear that that is happening. The fact that it happens with complex things like guitar playing shows how redundant the "I" is. I find that most of my movements happen with "I" making no claims on them.

Where are thoughts when you play? Are they quiet or are they active? Is ‘I’ there when you play, do you feel your me-ness or is there just playing?

If I firmly say to myself: "stop thinking!" there is a pause in thoughts but they start up again soon afterwards.

Yup! Just like the weather!

Keep looking at the story thoughts and useful thoughts. Let me know when you start to smile or giggle!

the thoughts seem too intense and overwhelming for me to see the funny side of them.

What tells you its overwhelming? Story thoughts?

Yes, I suppose the brain gets to see that this "I" is nothing other than a character in a story. It's obvious from what I wrote above that I have been deeply sucked into "my" story and have believed every word of it.

No different from anyone else. ‘My’ story doesn’t go it is just recognised as story. There is nothing wrong with story, it is just what is. Is there a thought that you need to be rid of story? If so try and stop story thoughts.
Sarah xx

[GateNudger]

Hi Sarah,

Keep looking at the story thoughts and useful thoughts. Let me know when you start to smile or giggle!

Nothing so far. I can see how it will gradually dawn on me just how absurd it is to take these stories so seriously when the main character is fictional. I have been sitting quietly watching storylines emerge. They are causing spasms and convulsions of the body and some vocalisations ( grunting noises ). Be great when this stuff turns into giggles.

Where are thoughts when you play? Are they quiet or are they active?

They are absent a lot of the time. It took me many years to realise that the reason I have persisted with guitar playing despite having no talent is that it engenders a kind of samadhi.

Is ‘I’ there when you play, do you feel your me-ness or is there just playing?

During these times of samadhi there is no "I". There are no thoughts about strings or notes or frets or getting it right etc; there is just playing. Here there is no 'me-ness'. When thoughts come back the playing deteriorates. This shows not just how redundant the "I" is, but that it is worse than useless.

Is there a thought that you need to be rid of story? If so try and stop story thoughts.

I have no expectation that this process will get rid of the story, only that I won't identify with the main character any more ( The Gary Weber video on this site shows that elimination of thoughts is possible though. I do spiritual practices similar to those that he did to bring about 'a cessation of the self-referential narrative', as he puts it ).

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter
Apologies for the late post.

I have been sitting quietly watching storylines emerge. They are causing spasms and convulsions of the body and some vocalisations ( grunting noises ). Be great when this stuff turns into giggles.

Fantastic. Keep on with this. Very useful.

They are absent a lot of the time. It took me many years to realise that the reason I have persisted with guitar playing despite having no talent is that it engenders a kind of samadhi.

This is my experience too. Sit with this too. Look while you play and mix this with the above. This has story attached too – ‘despite having no talent’. See if this story is there also when you play or coming in after.

During these times of samadhi there is no "I". There are no thoughts about strings or notes or frets or getting it right etc; there is just playing. Here there is no 'me-ness'. When thoughts come back the playing deteriorates.

Yes.

This shows not just how redundant the "I" is, but that it is worse than useless.

Story.

I have no expectation that this process will get rid of the story, only that I won't identify with the main character any more

Still an expectation. Still comparison. This may not be your experience. We are concerned here with that not what someone else has experienced which is their story.
Sarah xx