Anxiety, Doubt and Excitement, but I'd like to try

[nonaparry]

Hi Martin,

What is now less clear? Let's have a LOOK at that.

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

on Sunday I had a lot of time alone and didn't need to do much thinking. After looking at direct experience as good as possible for two hours focus naturally came back to direct experience after most thoughts.
This week I was back at work and my girlfriend came back from a family vacation and there was much thinking and less focus on direct experience.

The body doing its thing automatically is seen most of the time, but there are thoughts that claim that thoughts can at least influence other thoughts and the body.

The mind is just spinning in circles...

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[nonaparry]

Hi Martin,

The body doing its thing automatically is seen most of the time

Life, including a body that is not separate from Life, is doing its thing automatically ALL the time. Check it!!! Is there anything happening at all that requires something Separate from Life to make it happen? Ever? LOOK!

there are thoughts that claim that thoughts can at least influence other thoughts and the body

Sweetheart, there are thoughts that claim all kinds of things that turn out to be wrong: "the earth is flat", "people with dark skin are less intelligent than those with light skin", "global warming means the winters should be warmer".
Do you believe every thought you have?

Thoughts arrive, they show up and we notice them. They are neither true nor false, they are just mind-weather. They are like clouds or raindrops; one moment they show up and the next they are gone. They don't mean anything other than the labels you put on them; they are in and of themselves meaningless.
Check it!!
Think of a cup. See its shape, size, colour, decoration, whether it has a handle.
Now check the body; did that thought alter the body?

The mind is just spinning in circles...

Yes; you seem to prefer spinning in thought to LOOKing at the evidence of your direct experience. And that's okay; it's just you will never, I promise you, never see through the illusion by using thinking. The illusion is MADE of thought; it's made of the same thinking you are using to try to see through it.

I invite you to focus on your Direct Experience, what you can SEE, FEEL, HEAR, taste, smell, is actually happening in reality, and check if there is any separate self, any separate "I, me, self" at all.


Go back through this thread and read it all again from the start. Do the exercises again. And tell me:
What do you fear will happen if you acknowledge that you are not a separate self and do not own one? What will happen if that is true?
Write your responses to me! I can't help you if I don't know what hell you're living in.

with love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

it's been quite a busy day and tomorrow will be, too. I'll go through the thread and do the exercises on Monday.

Have a good night!
Martin

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[nonaparry]

Thanks Martin. I will be away today and tomorrow; I will check in late Monday or on Tuesday.

love
Nona

p.s. Stop Thinking!!!! Just LOOK at life around you! It all just happens, with or without Martin.

[Blacklight]

Dear Nona,

I have been looking the last two days and I haven't yet seen any event that was controlled by a 'me' in direct experience.
I didn't get to doing the exercises but focus on direct experience happens rather naturally.

I'll keep looking!
Martin

[nonaparry]

Hi Martin,

I have been looking the last two days and I haven't yet seen any event that was controlled by a 'me' in direct experience.

And you won't see one. There is no "you" that controls anything. Life just happens all by itself.

Take the time you need to recognise there is no "you" and no Control. That all there is is Life living itself.

Then would be a good time to answer the questions. :-)

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

should I keep posting every day or can I post when there are questions/doubts/news?

Nothing controlling events is seen more and more :)

Martin

[nonaparry]

Hi Martin,

Is there something in the way of your answering the questions I posted? Anything more to clear up?

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Dear Nona,

it has been seen that I is a thought and that things are happening by themselves, but there has not been a click in the mind or any "Ah, 'I' get it". Can 'I' get it at all? What is that click in the mind, are things clear afterwards and the illusion ALWAYS seen as illusion? Right now, self being a thought and not controlling can be seen when there is an explicit focus, but it's not always present...

I would just love for things to be clearer...

Martin

[Blacklight]

Dear Nona,

I was out for a walk in the woods yesterday watching the body move naturally by itself, evading obstacles and stinging nettles. I will be out on a forest ride this weekend and will use the time to watch all of nature happening by itself.

Have a nice weekend!
Martin

[nonaparry]

Hi Martin,

it has been seen that I is a thought and that things are happening by themselves, but there has not been a click in the mind or any "Ah, 'I' get it". Can 'I' get it at all? What is that click in the mind, are things clear afterwards and the illusion ALWAYS seen as illusion? Right now, self being a thought and not controlling can be seen when there is an explicit focus, but it's not always present...

Ah...Unmet Expectations of how it's 'supposed' to be.

There is no click.

There is no constant focus.

There is no self, no control.

There is no "I" to "get" it.

Did it 'click' when you discovered there is no entity Tooth Fairy? When you discovered that Batman is a fictional character?

Is the FACT that Santa Claus does not exist "always present"?

Is it ever not clear that Tooth Fairy, Batman, and Santa do not exist in reality????? Ever?

Check it!! Does 'self' exist at all in reality?

Just check it; does the evidence of your direct experience support the belief in a controlling "I"?

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Dear Nona,

a good part of the forrest ride there was focus on direct experience and especially seeing. Things happening automatically has been seen many times, so I think it is a good time to answer the questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, none at all. There is a body and a mind that creates thoughts, and a separate 'I' or 'self' exists only in thoughts, not in reality.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is the belief that there is an entity 'I' that can control things, i.e. make decisions and influence events independent from its environment. It probably starts in very early childhood when kids are taught to say 'I', 'my', 'mine' when they refer to their body, thoughts or even 'their' toys. Later kids are held accountable for 'their' actions and praised for 'their' successes which further reinforces the 'I' thought.
The illusion is maintained by mental images and spoken thoughts. The mind often constructs "video sequences" of events from the past or a imagined future. In these "videos" the imagined "not me" characters and the "me" observer (from whose camera perspective the video is seen) interact, often in emotional ways even leading to bodily reactions. Another way of reinforcing the illusion is the labeling of actions with "I did it" after the fact that the action happened. It requires quite a lot of thought to cover the fact that things happen by themselves as there are thousands of events per day where this can be seen quite clearly.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It doesn't feel much different. The main difference is that many thoughts about 'me' are labeled as 'just thought content' and focus shifts back to direct experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

All in all it was relatively gradual. The time out in nature with focus on seeing things happening by themselves was where things became clearer.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

This was the part where mind just didn't want the truth to be seen.
There is no control or intention or decision. Things just happen, events just flow.
There can be an illusion of control because sometimes mind thinks "I'll raise my left arm" and shortly after the arm really lifts. But first, when the arm lifted this happened by itself without a controller. Second, mind often thinks something like "I'll raise my left arm" and nothing happens. And third, that thought came all by itself and was not controlled by an entity 'I' either.

6) Anything to add?

Yes: Expectations were in the way all along. There are still thoughts like "this isn't the real deal" or "where is all the terror and joy" and in "mind world" those thoughts are coherent with and reinforced by other thoughts and mental images. But in reality life just flows on without any controller or 'I' and without anything to "get" except what actually is.

I hope the explanations are understandable, writing still shifts focus into thought world and things become a little "muddy" sometimes...

With warmth
Martin

[nonaparry]

Dearest Martin,

Thank you so much for your answers! Those pesky Expectations can be giant obstacles to SEEing!! :-)

I do have one question, if you would expand on #1. You wrote

There is a body and a mind that creates thoughts

Do you have direct experience of the body and mind creating thoughts? Or do thoughts simply show up?
If the first, please describe exactly how thoughts are created, and whether you have control over them.

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Dear Nona,

I do have one question, if you would expand on #1. You wrote
There is a body and a mind that creates thoughts

Do you have direct experience of the body and mind creating thoughts? Or do thoughts simply show up?
If the first, please describe exactly how thoughts are created, and whether you have control over them.

No, in direct experience there was no observation of the mind creating thoughts. This was one more assumption mixed into the description of direct experience. What I did notice in direct experience though is that there are a lot of quick thoughts that consist of only some words/concepts. Following that are sometimes spoken thoughts that build a sentence with those words. There is probably a really huge amount of those quick concept thoughts that also feed the illusion of a separate self.
There is no control over thoughts, although thought claims otherwise ;)
Thoughts just appear, sometimes they follow a longer theme, sometimes they jump around, but not even that is in control (although I still knit my brows in the hope that thoughts stay on one theme ;)

Nona, a big big thank you for all your patience and persistence!
Martin