DairinAshley - Ingen

[DairinAshley]

The cage is here, this position/perspective. There’s this subtle thought/sense that there should not be a ‘here’, there should be an ‘everywhere’ instead. The cage is a thought.

In my direct experience sights are seen in the view, parts of this body are seen but not all of it. The eyes can’t see the eyes that see, they can’t see the face or the head.

Where is the cage, if you don't begin to tell stories?
Without this subtle thought/sence, there is no cage.

[Ingen]

Where is the cage, if you don't begin to tell stories?
Without this subtle thought/sence, there is no cage.

Wow.

What about the thought

There’s this subtle thought/sense that there should not be a ‘here’, there should be an ‘everywhere’ instead.

where does it come from? Is it yours?

[DairinAshley]

where does it come from?

My first answer is I don’t know where it comes from.

That thought is a ‘voice’ in my head.
If I reason it out, I’ve read all kinds of information, and now there’s a thought added to how the experience should or shouldn’t be.

Is it yours?

I scratch my leg, is it my scratch? Scratching is happening ‘here’.
A sound is heard, is that sound mine? Hearing is happening ‘here’.
A thought ‘talks’ in my head. Is it mine? A thought is happening ‘here’.

I could say yes it’s all mine, because ‘here’ is where it’s happening. "Here" = me
Or
I could say no none of it’s mine, it’s just happening ‘here’. "Here" = body/mind/sensation/perception

This wasn't easy!! :)

[Ingen]

A thought ‘talks’ in my head. Is it mine? A thought is happening ‘here’.

Yes. Good. Let's investigate this further.

I’ve read all kinds of information, and now there’s a thought added to how the experience should or shouldn’t be.

Here you say the thought was coming from outside sources. Can you find thoughts which don't originate "outside"?
Can there appear more than one thought at the same time? Can one thought contain others?

This wasn't easy!! :)

You are doing great! :)

[DairinAshley]

Here you say the thought was coming from outside sources. Can you find thoughts which don't originate "outside"?
Can there appear more than one thought at the same time? Can one thought contain others?

I can't tell if thoughts come from outside or inside or where they originate. I can't tell if there's an outside or an inside because I can't find a boundary.

Some thoughts talk like a voice in my head. When it talks it seems to be in my head, and not over there somewhere. Some thoughts speak clearly and others are just a big mess and don't make sense. Some thoughts repeat themselves over and over. Some thoughts seem loud and some seem soft. Some come slowly others rush. Some are words. Some come with feelings, feelings of all kinds, others don;t have feelings with them. Some seem close others seem further away. Some come in groups and some come alone. Some thoughts are aha's! Some thoughts are images. Some images come forcefully others come gently. Some images are very clear colourful and bright, others are vague and dull.

I can get involved with a thought, or think about a thought, or it can disappear. Sometimes a thought starts to form and then disappears quickly.

I can deliberately think a thought. When I do that it's a voice in my head. If I think the question "What is this?" it's a voice in my head. I can deliberately stop thinking a thought I don't want to think anymore, or ignore a thought that persists.

I need to look closer to find out where thoughts come from or originate. It does seem that some come from the right hand side, as crazy as that sounds.

[Ingen]

I can get involved with a thought, or think about a thought,

look closer. To think about a thought means that a second thought appears which relates to the first thought. Which makes a chain of thoughts.
Or not?

or it can disappear. Sometimes a thought starts to form and then disappears quickly.

yes.

I can deliberately think a thought. When I do that it's a voice in my head. If I think the question "What is this?" it's a voice in my head.

look closer. How does this "deliberately" work? Give me an example of a thought you made up deliberately. Out of thin air. Without ANY outside/memory impulses.

I can deliberately stop thinking a thought I don't want to think anymore,

Ok. Think of a pink elephant. Now stop thinking of a pink elephant.

or ignore a thought that persists.

Are you sure? No recurring thoughts bothering you?

I need to look closer to find out where thoughts come from or originate. It does seem that some come from the right hand side, as crazy as that sounds.

I don't know if it is important which direction the thoughts come from.

Let's get really down to earth, give me examples. Watch your thoughts while you're doing your everyday activities.

Are there thoughts/chains of thought appearing which are really originally yours? Or can you trace them back to the source which got them started?

Describe.

[DairinAshley]

Yes, when I think about a thought it creates a chain of other thoughts.

The example I gave of deliberately thinking a thought is if I ask myself the question “What is this?” or “Who am I?” Otherwise I can’t deliberately think a thought. They just seem to come on their own. If I’m thinking about a problem at work it’s the same as asking myself a question and it also creates a chain of thoughts.

If I think of a pink elephant and then want to stop thinking about it...it takes a while but I have to really focus on my breathing. It’s an effort. I’m not always successful. I’m not at all successful if it’s a thought with a terrible feeling attached. Then I just let it be for as short or long as it wants, until it goes.

When I ignore a thought it doesn’t just disappear. The thought is there but I am making an effort not to engage it. Like if a dog is barking I put my attention somewhere else. The dog is still barking but I’m not focusing on it.

Recurring thoughts do bother me.

As I do my everyday activities I notice that thoughts come and go aimlessly. If I notice that I’m lost in the thoughts then I also notice for a moment that the world disappeared, it went black. I also notice when there are no thoughts.

I’m not sure if I understand your question.
“Are there thoughts/chains of thought appearing which are really originally yours?”
I don’t know if there are any thoughts that are originally mine. The thoughts seem to happen here though.

“Or can you trace them back to the source which got them started?”
If I trace back to how a chain of thoughts originated, an example would be an event or interaction at work, then a stream of thoughts and feelings will arrive instantly or later.

[Ingen]

I’m not sure if I understand your question.
“Are there thoughts/chains of thought appearing which are really originally yours?”
I don’t know if there are any thoughts that are originally mine. The thoughts seem to happen here though.

Of course. Here is the only place there is, where experience is happening.

“Or can you trace them back to the source which got them started?”
If I trace back to how a chain of thoughts originated, an example would be an event or interaction at work, then a stream of thoughts and feelings will arrive instantly or later.

That is what I meant. Thoughts don't "start" here. They are reactions to impulses.

A sensation happens >> thought follows
Or a thought is being picked up from somebody >>>another thought follows>>> a feeling happens.

Now look if you find something/someone thinking these thoughts.

Or is "I thought this" just another thought in the chain?

[DairinAshley]

Now look if you find something/someone thinking these thoughts.
Or is "I thought this" just another thought in the chain?

I can’t find something/someone thinking the thoughts.
But like talking, moving, seeing, tasting and so on...thoughts happens here where this body is.
It can feel like this body thinks the thoughts, just like this body talks or eats or moves or has a feeling.

I’ve had to work late tonight and I’m quite sick, so I don’t feel I’ve really LOOKED.

[Ingen]

I'm sorry to hear you are not feeling well. Great that you are posting anyway!

I can’t find something/someone thinking the thoughts.

Good. There isn't anything.

But like talking, moving, seeing, tasting and so on...thoughts happens here where this body is.
It can feel like this body thinks the thoughts, just like this body talks or eats or moves or has a feeling.

What do you mean with "but"? It sounds like you want to say "to experience unity, I shouldn't feel confined to this body". (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

Let's go back to this earlier post of yours. It is interesting to look at it now, after the investigation of how thoughts get picked up:

The cage is here, this position/perspective. There’s this subtle thought/sense that there should not be a ‘here’, there should be an ‘everywhere’ instead. The cage is a thought.
Without this subtle thought/sence, there is no cage.

Without the belief in a fictional you, ‘everywhere’ is all that is left. It is only a subtle shift in perspective, and it is already the case.

What is left of your belief in a separate self?

[DairinAshley]

It sounds like you want to say "to experience unity, I shouldn't feel confined to this body."

Yes, that is what I want to say.
There shouldn't be a sense of being located here where this body is.
The fact is only the sensations in this body are experienced, the sensations in your body are not experienced here. That fact creates a feeling of separation or 'not unity'. Or it's faulty logic.

Without the belief in a fictional you, ‘everywhere’ is all that is left. It is only a subtle shift in perspective, and it is already the case.

I'm looking at whether I do have a belief that there is a fictional 'me' or not.
I've been at home in bed today, this flu really got me, and I'm not very clear headed at all.

If I reword what you said like this...
Without the sense of 'here', ‘everywhere’ is all that is left.
At the stage that is the way I can understand it.
I'm not sure I can replace the word 'sense' with the word 'belief'.
What is the 'here'?
Are you saying that the 'here' is a belief and is fictional?

I kind of get what you're saying but it's not my experience.
My experience is of being 'here'....not of being 'everywhere'.
The cage is the thought "there should not be a here".
Without that thought there no problem with 'hereness', but there is not a sense of being 'everywhere' either.

Should there be a sense of being everywhere or not?

What is left of your belief in a separate self?

The sense/feeling of 'here' makes me feel separate.
Maybe I've got a hidden belief about what unity is?

[Ingen]

There shouldn't be a sense of being located here where this body is.
The fact is only the sensations in this body are experienced, the sensations in your body are not experienced here. That fact creates a feeling of separation or 'not unity'. Or it's faulty logic.

Imagine for a moment you were a cat. Would you as a cat speculate about that it would/should be possible to see the world from a different vantage point? No. You would be your world.

The possibility of an "objective" perspective is something learned. It is cultural. And the objective perspective is being considered superior. It certainly is a powerful concept, I am not asking you to give it up. But I want you to know that it is a concept. It is not experience. It is not real.

the sensations in your body are not experienced here. That fact creates a feeling of separation or 'not unity'.

No, it is not this fact that creates the feeling of separation. In your direct experience there are no boundaries. (remember the exercise at the beginning?) This is unity. That's it.

What creates the feeling of separation, is this thought:

There shouldn't be a sense of being located here where this body is.

Translated: As this requirement is impossible to be met, because obviously the sensations and perceptions are happening where they do, enlightenment is postponed into the future and the ego's mission fulfilled.

And this is not even your own thought, as there are no own thoughts. It was (like all thoughts) picked up somewhere, something you read about enlightened sages.

So you dismiss your own experience of unity (...there are no boundaries...) because you learned as a small child that you are a separate entity called Dairin. And because this is a lie, Dairin is never going to be good enough. This "not good enough" is build into the "I". The virus "I" contains: "Things shouldn't be as they are in this moment."

Grab a flower (or, with your flu, maybe some menthol oil :) ), close your eyes and sniff. Without thinking: What is happening? Is there a you smelling the flower? Or is there only the experience of smell... No you. No here, no there. Unity.

Best wishes from here. Get well soon!

[DairinAshley]

I see that...
Direct experience only happens ‘here’.
The thought ‘here’ is something I’ve added, because I think there’s a “here and a ‘there’.
I never saw that before.
But I knew it was a cage.
I see now, that it’s an idea/concept that has been added to direct experience.
It was very subtle.
Yes, I see that I dismiss my own experience.
I was blind to the thought that was blinding me.

I grabbed a flower...the flu is not in my nose, it’s my throat... ;) I’m MUCH better today :)
There is only smelling... there is no ‘me’ smelling.
There is only the experience of smell.

So I’d have to say...
Experience is happening.
Or just... Experiencing.
Instead of... Direct experience only happens ‘here’.

[Ingen]

You're getting it, Dairin :)

What is "you"?

[DairinAshley]

What is "you"?

"You" is experience as it is happening.
"You" is seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling, thinking, moving or whatever is, as it is happening.