Anxiety, Doubt and Excitement, but I'd like to try

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

I just came back from my aunt's 60th birthday and I'm too tired to write...
I'll post tomorrow.

Good night!
Martin

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[nonaparry]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for letting me know!

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

I've been checking on the question if sensations and their source are different in direct experience.
I need to do some more checking before answering, I'll post tomorrow.

Have a good night!
Martin

[nonaparry]

Dearest Martin,

As you LOOK at your direct experience, these words from the Bahiya Sutta may assist:

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here...

And I would add "outside of your direct experience".

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

I tried to check for 2 hours using hearing. Almost every time when a sound was heard the mind created a mental image of what it supposed was heard. There were also many thoughts coming up, although I tried to focus on the bare hearing...
Apart from that I couldn't yet find a separation between the heard and the hearing. How would a "separation" even look like in direct experience? It seems that there can only be temporal separation or a different sense gate in direct experience.

Martin

[nonaparry]

Dearest Martin,

Almost every time when a sound was heard the mind created a mental image of what it supposed was heard.

And is the mental image the actual sound? or the actual sound-maker? Or is it just a mental image?

Apart from that I couldn't yet find a separation between the heard and the hearing.

YES!!

And tell me, do you notice any actual separation in your direct experience between the seen and the seeing, the sensed and the sensing, the thought and the thinking? At all?

I want you to observe what is present in thought but missing from your direct experience! The "I" is missing, the object that emits sound is missing...what else is missing?

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hello Nona,

And is the mental image the actual sound? or the actual sound-maker? Or is it just a mental image?

It's just a mental image.

And tell me, do you notice any actual separation in your direct experience between the seen and the seeing, the sensed and the sensing, the thought and the thinking? At all?

Mind labels objects it sees and says that seeing is not the labeled objects.
But this is only thought content and in direct experience there is no separation between the seeing and the seen...
Mind constructs images of the objects being sensed and says that sensing is not the sensed objects.
But this is only thought content and in direct experience there is no separation between the sensing and the sensed.
Thoughts are quite "slippery", it's very easy to get detracted from the question while watching thoughts...
Yet, there is no separation between thinking and thoughts to be found...

I want you to observe what is present in thought but missing from your direct experience! The "I" is missing, the object that emits sound is missing...what else is missing?

Hmm, in direct experience there are no "objects" at all. When seeing, the mind jumps in very quickly and labels things but the label is no real thing, just thought content... Same thing goes for the other senses, except that there's a mental image first and then a label.
Is that what you meant?

[nonaparry]

Dear Martin,

Mind labels objects it sees and says that seeing is not the labeled objects.
But this is only thought content and in direct experience there is no separation between the seeing and the seen...
Mind constructs images of the objects being sensed and says that sensing is not the sensed objects.
But this is only thought content and in direct experience there is no separation between the sensing and the sensed.
Thoughts are quite "slippery", it's very easy to get detracted from the question while watching thoughts...
Yet, there is no separation between thinking and thoughts to be found...

SUPERB!! Exactly!!!! Really excellent Noticing!!

in direct experience there are no "objects" at all. When seeing, the mind jumps in very quickly and labels things but the label is no real thing, just thought content... Same thing goes for the other senses, except that there's a mental image first and then a label.
Is that what you meant?

Yes indeed!!
So, in your direct experience, is there an entity "I"? at all? In your direct experience, is there any director, controller, of what happens?? at all?

This is the crux of our inquiry. LOOK! What is the case in your direct experience?

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

So, in your direct experience, is there an entity "I"? at all? In your direct experience, is there any director, controller, of what happens?? at all?

This is the crux of our inquiry. LOOK! What is the case in your direct experience?

In direct experience, there is no entity "I" at all. In direct experience, there is not even a body, only sensations that the mind "locates" as "in the body" and body parts that the eyes see and the mind labels as "hands", "feet" or "my hands", "my feet". In direct experience there is no quality of any sensation that would qualify it as "I", "me" or "mine".
While abiding in direct experience it is quite clear that things happen by themselves although thoughts still claim otherwise...

Martin

[nonaparry]

Dear Martin,

While abiding in direct experience it is quite clear that things happen by themselves although thoughts still claim otherwise...

Well yes...that's what mind does. And those thoughts arise spontaneously without any control, too. Like clouds drifting through a summer sky, they are just "mind-weather". They don't have to be believed just because they show up.

About this "While abiding in direct experience" thing, I know it's popular to attempt to "abide" in some state or other, but one cannot abide in direct experience. One can only focus on sensation or not; sensation is always happening whether you are focused on it or not. While mind is busy thinking, all the senses are still functioning—you're just not focused on them.

So my dear, can you confirm that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self? Is anything missing that you expected?

With much love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Dear Nona,

About this "While abiding in direct experience" thing, I know it's popular to attempt to "abide" in some state or other, but one cannot abide in direct experience. One can only focus on sensation or not; sensation is always happening whether you are focused on it or not. While mind is busy thinking, all the senses are still functioning—you're just not focused on them.

Ok, wrong terminology from my side. What I meant to express was being focused on sensations or being mindful with the thinking instead of being lost in the content of thought. I hope this is clearer.

So my dear, can you confirm that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

Yes, I have seen through the illusion of a separate self. The mind still creates lots of those 'I' thoughts but those are only thoughts and cannot change reality...

Is anything missing that you expected?

Hahaha, this one makes me laugh. Yes, there are a lot of things missing that 'I' expected. There is no terror, there is no endless bliss, there is no X-ray like "seeing through reality" into some other hidden dimension. There is no crystal clear mind and no Zen thunder of insight. There is also no constant seeing of things arising and passing and no formations whatever those are.
There is only clear seeing of things happening by themselves when focus is on sensations and a more frequent (fruitless) looking for an 'I' in direct experience whenever an 'I' thought comes up.
There is also lots of smiling at the stories that mind creates, it's really like a very imaginative child sometimes :)

With warmth
Martin

[nonaparry]

Dearest Martin,

We have a few questions we ask when someone confirms he has seen through the illusion of a separate self.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

I was in the process of answering the questions but question 5 threw me in a thought-loop :/
I need some more time to check this in direct experience...

I'll get back to you!
Martin

[nonaparry]

Dearest Martin,

That's what Q5 is meant to do. I'm delighted you are LOOKing! Let me know if you have questions or confusion.

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona, I am still checking... Right now things are less clear than they have already been...

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