Hello

[four]

Hi,

At the age of 19 I was on a train to an Airport, when I had an experience that was outside my ego's understanding of the world I held prior - reading a book about the unlikelyhood of us existing at all, being dependent on our parents and further ancestors having to meet and become conceived at precisely the moment they did, and that their courses of life had to run pretty much exactly as they had, with even a minor alteration in the course of history resulting in the non-existence of future generations. Yet, in the face of these staggering odds, here we are.

A 'holy shit' dawned on me and for the first time that I can recall, I 'felt' something strong in my body - best described as an intense 'up' feeling in my chest. Prior to this I had no experience (as far as I'm aware) of 'feeling' emotions as actual bodily sensations this intense - short of orgasm.

It lasted about 24 hours and profoundly altered my outlook - I was entirely blissful, in a manic state where I perceived no 'harm' or 'discompassion' - and found I could be 'natural' in my interaction with others, as if we were lifetime friends. When it faded, I began a search for this 'heightened' state, and a way to 'trigger it'.

I had no idea what it was, searching far and wide on the internet returned minimal results for people who had experienced similar things. A website describing 'enlightenment' as 'endless bliss' took my fancy. Surely this was it?!

Several months later, after having felt neither highs or lows, but constantly seeking, I managed to trigger the euphoria again, reading an article online that could be described as 'story, simplified' - the basis of the lengthy article (cannot find the source) pertained that 'life is somewhat like a book, every day a new page, protagonists, villains, plot-lines, drama, comedy, emotion, with the ability to turn a page and start writing a new chapter, whenever'. I was catapulted into euphoria again - went for a walk - made some friends. 24 hours later, it again, faded.

So really, for a long time my ego became addicted to chasing this 'high' and it's easy to see why - It was a state it perceived as allowing 'ME' to do whatever 'MY mind' wanted. Entirely selfish, entirely unsustainable.

Months later, after having ridden waves of 'high' to extremes, I crashed. Suddenly a new feeling kicked in, like a 5kg weight strapped to my diaphragm at all times.

After several months futilely spent trying to 'shift the energy', 'synthesise the kundalini', 'fiddle my chakras' I felt pretty run-down. Several days a week would be spent in the 'down' state, barely able to function - with occasional, seemingly random days where it would flip to another intense 'up' state and I'd be back to my 'heightened' state for a while.

I soon arrived at the conclusion that I needed to realize why I was so unequipped to deal with the strong 'down' emotions I now felt - I started looking into the nature of things. I came across an article written by Osho, and this was my first foray into the workings of the conditioned mind, ego, etc.

I read more and more - Osho, Michael Brown, Alan Watts, Jed McKenna, The Gateless Gate Koans, Tolle, amongst others, throughout the year - what started as 'grasping for state X, whilst attempting to remove state Y' - became 'hey, all this is just happening' and this quickly became 'oh'. I guess a lot of surface delusion was cleared up at this stage.

Cognition of conceptual explanations and this led to further delusion - profound experiences led to me believing multiple times that 'this was it' - when it wasn't. Further and further. As profound experiences too faded, further grasping.

Then the question 'Is this it?' returned no wherever it was pointed. 'Emotions', 'fear' - word. 'MY' name - words. Other people - were they their names? Their gender? Simply all letters that formulated into words somewhere? Where? In 'MY' head? What even was 'MY' - more letters arranged into words. Years of searching, seeking - seeking what? Concepts which are little more than words and letters. What was 'is this it?' aside from another formation of letters, what was 'no' aside from another formulation of letters.

There is still feeling, these is still sensation, there is still sight, there is still hearing, there is still thought.

Prior to this, I looked with my eyes and the world before me was going on.

Prior to this, I heard with my ears and the world before me was going on.

Prior to this I thought with my mind, but it was not treated like sight or hearing - it had a 'personal element' attached to it. It felt 'in control'. It felt like it was 'MY' mind.

It's just going on.

[ray]

Hi,

Great that you made it here! Thanks for sharing your journey, it sounds like you've had quite a ride.
Is there a first name I can call you by?

Are you in any way separate from THIS that is just going on?

At times you probably find that you still get wrapped up in thoughts and the story of you. How is it when that happens?

Warmly,
Ray

[four]

Hi,

Great that you made it here! Thanks for sharing your journey, it sounds like you've had quite a ride.
Is there a first name I can call you by?

Hi, It's Geoff.

Are you in any way separate from THIS that is just going on?

At times you probably find that you still get wrapped up in thoughts and the story of you. How is it when that happens?

I allocated 6 weeks after 'I thought I saw' in which to see what unfolded.

There wasn't a me allocating this time at all. Thoughts were trying to fill in blanks, surely 'this' couldn't be it. A reality of passing thoughts, passing sights, passing feelings with no need for a thinker, nor need for a see-er, a do-er or a feeler. Thoughts allocating time, thoughts worrying that the self could slip back in. What was the 'self' aside from memory and thoughts itself? No more real than any story, history, background you could give to a lego figure.

Nothing, it wasn't any different from that.

Thoughts, sensations, sight, smell and taste, as before. There is as much validity to the 'I', as belongs to a lego figure in a lego city of shapes constructed to resemble the reality which they represent. Ideas of what the shapes are, themselves only representations.

So what is there? Thoughts, sensations, sight, smell and taste, as before.

Every taste, the current - soon to pass. Every thought, the current thought - soon, another.

Being perceived by what? Nothing. Once, there was a lego figure, with a story to give it zest.

Now, simply a lego figure, zest coming and going as it always has.

[ray]

It's a pleasure to meet you Geoff.

There are some questions we ask for you to clarify your seeing. I think you'll enjoy answering them.
Feel free to answer 1 or 2 at a time over a few days, or all at once. No rush! Please answer from present moment Direct Experience. Let's see what comes up.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

Kind regards,
Ray

[four]

It fades and it's back. Away and it returns.

Who knows... perhaps this is posting under delusion, but these are my honest thoughts right now, Ray.

I'd rather be honest with you now than wait until the 'clarity' at which point I'd only be giving you a rose-tinted account of things.

It lasted and then it faded, and since then it's been on and off - the off never lasts very long, and I'm not too bothered about it anymore as I know it too is passing. What even is the 'on'? Just glimpses of clarity, seeing, hearing, thinking - all passing by by themselves. No thinking it's 'legit' or 'not' at that point in time - I guess that's my struggle. I feel I've lost it, but then nope, here it is again. Is this how it's supposed to be? I can't find anything on what happens now but I imagine it's just burning off whatever arises in the 'off' stage where the ego grasps itself back in.

...

Just now I'm starting to think that maybe i'm grasping for the 'on' - as if it's separate from the 'off' - what's different about it - the thoughts entailed? Some more positive than negative? More speed introduced, more 'clarity' - Clarity about what? Clarity of labels? Quality of experience? What was I looking for? Enlightenment... A word. Some state separate from another, something with emotional Zest and vibrancy to give me a feeling that something had happened.

It's like a story that writes itself.

The mind throws an 'I' onto the memories and thoughts much like it throws the word 'bottle' onto that bottle. It's what it does. It needs to label, it needs to analyse. That's what it's always done because that's what it's always been told to do.

Of course the bottle isn't absolutely a bottle, it's a bottle by human mind. It exists outside of this, but not as the word 'bottle'.

So what is the 'self' by absolute terms. Nothing, it doesn't exist outside of the human mind. No 'me' - no 'I'. Unlike the bottle it has no physical form in reality. Nothing.

[four]

And that's just it, Ray.

I actually compared the bottle and the 'self'. Just now.

I saw that it had no physical form in reality.

I will answer your questions now.

[four]

[quote= ray]1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?[/quote]

No. None at all. No 'I' has ever existed - 'I' is a label for my experience, with no basis in reality. It has no physical form or substance.

It never had a physical form. The assumption that a physical form arose when other things were given labels. Labels that serve purpose for human communication. A 'bottle' as an idea - and the physical object that we call 'a bottle' - a two-way bridge that reinforces itself.

The 'self' as an idea - no two-way bridge here. Simply an 'idea'. An idea with no form in reality on which to reinforce itself.

[quote= ray]2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.[/quote]

The illusion of separate self is the creation of a physical object which simply doesn't exist - the self, the I.

The body, 'the physical' if ever there was one, going about it's biological functions and doing as it does. The brain, doing as it does. Labelling relentlessly. It took this sight, this hearing, this emotion. Took it all in, labelled it 'mine'. Created an 'I' to be experiencing it all when the 'I' itself has no physical existence at all, whereas other things with labels DO have physical reality that can be felt, can be interacted with.

It starts to happen shortly after the brain learns to label. It just creates the label 'I' and relates all incoming experience to it - 'my' sight - 'my' sound.

[quote= ray]3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.[/quote]

Thoughts are just happening. Things are just happening. It's like this is writing itself autonomously. I guess the best way to describe it would be 'muted'. There just is the world around, going on as it did previously. Labelling is still happening, as a mental process - A cup is seen, a cup is identified. What is not seen is any 'I' behind any of it, because the 'I' lacks any substance.

[quote= ray]4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?[/quote]

A bottle over there. A form which is labelled a 'bottle'.

An 'I' there. But where is it's form?

[quote= ray]5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.[/quote]

No, not at all. There's simply no 'I' to actually do, be doing anything or making anything happen.

Previously, the assumption was held that 'I' was doing things. A physical self doing physical things. Lifting that physical bottle - seeing that physical bottle. No physical I. Simply a body, doing as it does. A mind, doing as it does.

'I' - not physical. No matter. Nothing material.

[quote= ray]6) Anything to add?[/quote]

The books. All the books, all of the self inquiry. It was feeding the 'I'.

Feeding the 'I', one process or another - something to pacify the 'self' without looking. All question the legitimacy of the 'self' in their own way - but it was just the mind taking it on board and finding a way of re-purposing it to suit the 'I' without seeing that the I had no existence at all.

What a mess! 50,000+ words unnecessary to describe 'There is no I'. 'I' running itself around for years, finding 'this' 'that' and 'the next thing' to relate to it's experience.

[four]

Whoops, looks like the formatting messed up.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. None at all. No 'I' has ever existed - 'I' is a label for my experience, with no basis in reality. It has no physical form or substance.

It never had a physical form. The assumption that a physical form arose when other things were given labels. Labels that serve purpose for human communication. A 'bottle' as an idea - and the physical object that we call 'a bottle' - a two-way bridge that reinforces itself.

The 'self' as an idea - no two-way bridge here. Simply an 'idea'. An idea with no form in reality on which to reinforce itself.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is the creation of a physical object which simply doesn't exist - the self, the I.

The body, 'the physical' if ever there was one, going about it's biological functions and doing as it does. The brain, doing as it does. Labelling relentlessly. It took this sight, this hearing, this emotion. Took it all in, labelled it 'mine'. Created an 'I' to be experiencing it all when the 'I' itself has no physical existence at all, whereas other things with labels DO have physical reality that can be felt, can be interacted with.

It starts to happen shortly after the brain learns to label. It just creates the label 'I' and relates all incoming experience to it - 'my' sight - 'my' sound.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Thoughts are just happening. Things are just happening. It's like this is writing itself autonomously. I guess the best way to describe it would be 'muted'. There just is the world around, going on as it did previously. Labelling is still happening, as a mental process - A cup is seen, a cup is identified. What is not seen is any 'I' behind any of it, because the 'I' lacks any substance.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

A bottle over there. A form which is labelled a 'bottle'.

An 'I' there. But where is it's form?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.

No, not at all. There's simply no 'I' to actually do, be doing anything or making anything happen.

Previously, the assumption was held that 'I' was doing things. A physical self doing physical things. Lifting that physical bottle - seeing that physical bottle. No physical I. Simply a body, doing as it does. A mind, doing as it does.

'I' - not physical. No matter. Nothing material.

6) Anything to add?

The books. All the books, all of the self inquiry. It was feeding the 'I'.

Feeding the 'I', one process or another - something to pacify the 'self' without looking. All question the legitimacy of the 'self' in their own way - but it was just the mind taking it on board and finding a way of re-purposing it to suit the 'I' without seeing that the I had no existence at all.

What a mess! 50,000+ words unnecessary to describe 'There is no I'. 'I' running itself around for years, finding 'this' 'that' and 'the next thing' to relate to it's experience.

[ray]

Hi Geoff,

thanks for your answers. No worries about the formatting.
Looking good to me. I'll see if any of our other guides have questions to help you clarify this a bit further.

You are so right about all those books feeding the illusion of "I"

warmly,
Ray

[ray]

Hi Geoff,

No further questions from our other guides, so it's my pleasure to welcome you to LU.

I liked your description of it as "muted". Of course with no thing or no one to be "muted" it all just goes on :)
Referring back to your earlier comments...

It lasted and then it faded, and since then it's been on and off - the off never lasts very long, and I'm not too bothered about it anymore as I know it too is passing. What even is the 'on'? Just glimpses of clarity, seeing, hearing, thinking - all passing by by themselves. No thinking it's 'legit' or 'not' at that point in time - I guess that's my struggle. I feel I've lost it, but then nope, here it is again. Is this how it's supposed to be? I can't find anything on what happens now but I imagine it's just burning off whatever arises in the 'off' stage where the ego grasps itself back in.

How this proceeds is different for everyone. You've noticed that old feelings and getting involved in the story still occur. This is quite normal. You only have to LOOK again to see that this feelings are happening to no-one! When resistance is felt it can be accepted and looked at, it is then seen as a vista to deeper seeing.
Your description of "burning off whatever arises" is the way that many describe this.

Please check your Private Messages as one of our Admins will invite you to join us on Facebook. There are groups for general discussion and sharing with others who have seen through the illusion of self, also a group using the Work by Byron Katie to deal with residual beliefs.
You'll also get a PM from me. I'm here and on FB if you have any questions.

With love and blessings,
Ray