Anxiety, Doubt and Excitement, but I'd like to try

[nonaparry]

Dearest Martin,

may I throw all the fear and doubt at you?

Absolutely! Get it all out so we can investigate it!

Is that true? Is body = I ?
Let's get a corpse and check it. We take the body apart and put legs here, arms there, torso over here. We'll put internal organs here and here. Head can go over here. Feet and hands we'll put here. Now. All the components of a body are spread before you: which is the "I"?

Why can't the I be something composite? A living body + a mind/brain that generates thoughts and controls the body? If body + mind can't be an I then how can a collection of cells be a tree or a collection of atoms be a cell? What does exist at all then?

Check it!! IS the "I" a body? At all?
How many body parts are required to be "composited" before an "I" exists?
If you cannot find the "I" in the parts, at all, how can "I" be the "composite"? Where does "I" go when we break the composite down??

What is the "composite" other than a thought?

In your Direct Experience, Martin, where do thoughts come from? What is their origin?
In your Direct Experience, what controls body? And how? NOT from what you've read, but from your experience in this moment now? Do you SEE a controller? LOOK!!!
Do you SEE a composite? Or is composite also a thought? Do you just see an entity that you label tree, an entity you label cell?
WHERE is the entity you label "I"?
LOOK.

I promise, you will never ever SEE through the illusion with the Thinking that creates it. You will HAVE to leave the realm of Thought to SEE it. That's why I give you exercises and ask you to answer from direct experience!

I fear that the recognition of this fact will lead to a lot of fear and suffering because all the things that used to be important and beautiful (like having a super-nice girlfriend, a great family, a cool job) are suddenly unimportant and pointless.

Girlfriends, family, jobs, they are ALL just part of Life living itself. You can go through Life believing you are separate from everything, or you can LOOK at things as they ARE, without the social filters, without thoughts that give them "meaning". Life doesn't change: your Perspective changes.

How does an aspect of Life get to be "Important"? You label it so.
That's it.
The only difference between Important and Unimportant is the label you use to describe it. The aspect of Life doesn't change; only your label does.

LOOK at your job without the label "cool". It's a job; it consists of various activities. It is not inherently "cool"; it becomes "cool" because you Think it is.
LOOK at your family without the label "great". They are a family. You are emotionally tied to them. Some families seem to work together better than other families, and you label those "great".

The Importance of these is determined by your Thoughts in the moment. For example, if you had been injured badly and experiencing pain, suddenly the drive to stop the pain becomes Important. But in this moment NOW, without pain, the question of pain does not appear on the list of What's Important.

I fear that it will lead to isolation as all the "normal things" that one does and talks about are suddenly void of any meaning.

Sweetheart, there is already no meaning in experiences except what you put on them. And so far you have been content with the ones you decide and apply.
In all of Life, you may notice some folks appear to isolate themselves, and others group together. This is also true for those who have seen through the illusion: some isolate, and others group.

I fear that Martin will not feel compassion anymore because all is just a soap opera (yeah, I got that one from Jed McKenna :p

Like pictures on a movie screen, Life is simply happening while we watch. This is the case NOW; it will not change because you have seen through the illusion. Do you feel compassion NOW? Even though Life is happening without your control?

I fear that there will be nothing to hold on to.

What you are Holding On to is an illusion. Plain and simple. What would happen, in reality, if you let go of the illusion and Fell?
On a blisteringly hot day, have you ever noticed that black tarmac roads look as though there are puddles on them? As a mirage? They look deep! But what happens when you drive through them?

I guess that things will be very different from these thoughts, but they seem so real and overwhelming sometimes and other times they just pop through in the background and shift the attention to easier problems like work stuff.

Sweetheart, these are just Thoughts. They are not things as they are. Without any filters, without thoughts.
For Things As They Are, please shift focus to Direct Experience.

there is no experience of a "stimulator" of the corresponding muscles. There is no experience of a "thinker" that chooses between thoughts and fires only chosen ones. There is no experience of a "breather" that lifts the chest in order for the air to move into the lungs. There is no experience of a "stimulator" that fires the nerves for the heart to beat. There is no experience of a "seer" that chooses which light particles are allowed in. There is no experience of a "concentrator" that chooses what to focus on. There's sometimes thoughts that "thoughts can control what to focus on", but on further checking this is not true and attention shifts wherever it wants to.

So there is no Experience of a thinker, a breather, a stimulator, a seer, a concentrator; there isn't even control over where attention shifts to.
What does this TELL you, Martin? If all this control is not present in reality, WHERE is it present?

sorry for being so stubborn...

You're not stubborn, dearheart; you're just deluded. You believe your thoughts, even when your direct experience is the opposite of what you think.

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona, sorry for not posting yesterday. I'm on the train now and checking where the I goes when the body is "dissected".

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9100 mit Tapatalk 2

[nonaparry]

Thanks for letting me know.

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

Check it!! IS the "I" a body? At all?
How many body parts are required to be "composited" before an "I" exists?
If you cannot find the "I" in the parts, at all, how can "I" be the "composite"? Where does "I" go when we break the composite down??

What is the "composite" other than a thought?

In your Direct Experience, Martin, where do thoughts come from? What is their origin?
In your Direct Experience, what controls body? And how? NOT from what you've read, but from your experience in this moment now? Do you SEE a controller? LOOK!!!
Do you SEE a composite? Or is composite also a thought? Do you just see an entity that you label tree, an entity you label cell?
WHERE is the entity you label "I"?
LOOK.

I promise, you will never ever SEE through the illusion with the Thinking that creates it. You will HAVE to leave the realm of Thought to SEE it. That's why I give you exercises and ask you to answer from direct experience!

There is a strong intention to answer these questions. Right now, the mind tries to give the answers and attention is shifting back and forth between thoughts and direct experience.
Life happening without controller has been seen more and more and when looking for the origin of thoughts, there was no thinker seen.

Nona, from the length of my answers it looks like I'm being lazy, but I'm really spending hours every day trying to LOOK and SEE...
Martin

[nonaparry]

Dear Martin,

Right now, the mind tries to give the answers and attention is shifting back and forth between thoughts and direct experience.

Yes. Notice that mind will interfere, trying to give "right" answers before the responses from Direct Experience can be given and Mess Up mind's con-game!
Mind has been imagined to be In Control for so long, it doesn't give up easily. But just Notice when thoughts try to take over the experience of the moment that they are only thought bubbles.
The experience itself happens in sensation, not in thought. Mind has had you convinced for xx years that Life happens in your thinking ABOUT it, but in reality this is an illusion. Check it!

from the length of my answers it looks like I'm being lazy

That's mind, making things up again and pretending they are true. It is not the case, in reality, that your answers suggest laziness in any way. LOOK!

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

today was a family day and for some moments there was just watching of all happening, Martin talking with others, Martin preparing a salad. I just had an argument with my girlfriend and it was a back and forth of thinking and direct experience. Two or three times there was a thought about "having to defend myself" and immediately afterwards awareness that this "me" that has to be defended was just a thought.
The way home from my parent's house we took the scooter and a few times there was just seeing and driving and contentment with just that moment's experience although the weather was rainy and the hands and legs were quite cold from the wind.

Martin

[nonaparry]

Dearest Martin,

Two or three times there was a thought about "having to defend myself" and immediately afterwards awareness that this "me" that has to be defended was just a thought.

"Me" is always just a thought; now that you know this, it will be easier to SEE it each time. Keep Noticing as Life unfolds; there is no entity "me"—it is only a label, a thought.

The way home from my parent's house we took the scooter and a few times there was just seeing and driving and contentment with just that moment's experience although the weather was rainy and the hands and legs were quite cold from the wind.

Yes. And this is how ALL of Life is; it simply unfolds, with no "you" or "me" to DO anything at all.

Get out into Nature if you can, and watch the birds, the animals, the trees, bushes, and flowers; ALL of Life is simply unfolding, and nothing in Nature, including Martin, is separate or "in control". Check it!

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

I was out for a walk and part of the time there was awareness of walking happening by itself. There were thoughts about which way to go but when the crossroads came the body just went one direction while the mind was thinking about other stuff. I was also washing the dishes and the hands moved by themselves while the mind was thinking about what else has to be done after washing the dishes. It's funny to see how the mind creates an entire fantasy world while the body is doing all the work ;)

Have a good night!
Martin

[nonaparry]

Dearest Martin,

It's funny to see how the mind creates an entire fantasy world while the body is doing all the work

Yes indeed!!! And have you seen that this is how ALL of Life operates? That Life is simply happening all by itself while Mind is spinning other tales?

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

Yes indeed!!! And have you seen that this is how ALL of Life operates? That Life is simply happening all by itself while Mind is spinning other tales?

I'm not seeing it all the time (e.g. when busy with work), but I've seen it in enough occasions so that when awareness kicks in it mostly is clear that the mind was just fantasizing and attention shifts to direct experience.
Is this what is meant by seeing through the illusion?

[nonaparry]

Hi Martin,

And have you seen that this is how ALL of Life operates? That Life is simply happening all by itself while Mind is spinning other tales?

I'm not seeing it all the time (e.g. when busy with work)

When busy with work, can you stop and shift focus to your direct experience and notice that work, too, just happens without an I or a self to control it?

Is this what is meant by seeing through the illusion?

What is meant by "seeing through the illusion" is the actual physical experience of the illusion taking place in that moment.

Each of us seems to have a different experience of it, yet the physical experience cannot be denied. I saw through the illusion when I watched my thoughts create a Story of "what was happening in the moment" and tell me that Story in the commentary that was running through mind at the time. What I noticed particularly was that the commentary on "what was going on around me" was just a tad out of sync with the action—the actions occurred first and then mind informed "me" of what was happening, as if I weren't at the very heart of it!! The Story even included a guide and a gateless gate...

Seeing through the illusion is experiencing as a fact (rather than theorizing or understanding) that what you believed "yourself" to be isn't it. That the labels "self", "I", "me", do not refer to a physical entity at all, and never did. That Life simply happens without any assistance from anyone ever.

Have you SEEN through the illusion that you are, or have, a separate self that controls an individual personal slice of Life?

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

When busy with work, can you stop and shift focus to your direct experience and notice that work, too, just happens without an I or a self to control it?

Awareness was there for two short moments, but got swept away quickly. Most of the day there was little or no awareness...
I just installed an app that reminds me to take a break every 25 minutes, I'll use that time to get back to direct experience.

What is meant by "seeing through the illusion" is the actual physical experience of the illusion taking place in that moment.

Each of us seems to have a different experience of it, yet the physical experience cannot be denied. I saw through the illusion when I watched my thoughts create a Story of "what was happening in the moment" and tell me that Story in the commentary that was running through mind at the time. What I noticed particularly was that the commentary on "what was going on around me" was just a tad out of sync with the action—the actions occurred first and then mind informed "me" of what was happening, as if I weren't at the very heart of it!! The Story even included a guide and a gateless gate...

Seeing through the illusion is experiencing as a fact (rather than theorizing or understanding) that what you believed "yourself" to be isn't it. That the labels "self", "I", "me", do not refer to a physical entity at all, and never did. That Life simply happens without any assistance from anyone ever.

Have you SEEN through the illusion that you are, or have, a separate self that controls an individual personal slice of Life?

Right now this is rather an understanding with partial experiencing. Whenever there is good awareness I SEE that things are happening by themselves, mostly for simple bodily processes like walking and sometimes when talking or playing music. I also SEE that the mind creates stories all the time. These stories are believed a big part of the time, but sometimes they're just seen as story. I UNDERSTAND CONCEPTUALLY that the content of a thought is not reality, but still get caught in the content quite often. There are also many thoughts about "needing to get somewhere", "needing to get to see through the illusion" which right now is SEEN as thought content and BELIEVED to be a way of the mind to shift attention away from direct experience. Also there is still a BELIEVE that the 'I' is in this body and an intention thought to do the exercises you gave me some days ago:

Check it!! IS the "I" a body? At all?
How many body parts are required to be "composited" before an "I" exists?
If you cannot find the "I" in the parts, at all, how can "I" be the "composite"? Where does "I" go when we break the composite down??

I'll check this until I fall asleep...
Have a good night Nona, thanks again for the patience and persistence!
Martin

[nonaparry]

Hi Martin,

You are still trying to Understand this, to think your way out of a box that isn't here. You have the evidence of your senses, which is not what you learned as a child; then you have the stories mind tells you, which do match what you learned as a child. Isn't it possible that the child got it wrong? In your experience, do children grasp the whole picture easily? Or do they get it mixed up?

Awareness was there for two short moments, but got swept away quickly. Most of the day there was little or no awareness...

No sweetheart. I don't know what you think awareness is, but it is never absent. Never. If there is an object, there is awareness; they are inseparable.
So what I think you are telling me is FOCUS was there for short moments; that you only rarely Focus on the information your senses pick up. A regular break is a great idea!! Please use it to LOOK around you and notice what is really going on in that moment! Colours are happening; movement is happening; tactile sensations are happening—what is NOT happening is whatever meaning you put on the colours, the movement, the tactile sensations. ALL meaning is in thought! Life is just happening, and then you think about it. What I want you to FOCUS on is the Life is just happening part.

Whenever there is good awareness I SEE that things are happening by themselves, mostly for simple bodily processes like walking and sometimes when talking or playing music.

What exactly is NOT happening by itself? Be precise! Is there a "you" that comes out of the closet and takes over until that activity is complete and then folds itself up and puts itself away until the next time a "self" is required for Life to happen?

I also SEE that the mind creates stories all the time. These stories are believed a big part of the time, but sometimes they're just seen as story.

Every story the mind creates is like the story of Santa Claus, or of Batman, or of unicorns; it's just a fiction. Why do you Believe the Story when the evidence of your direct experience opposes it?? Mind's job is to make sense of experience, and this just doesn't make any sense!

There are also many thoughts about "needing to get somewhere"

Where is your evidence, except a thought, that you need something that is not already present? The evidence of mind is invariably a thought; the evidence of the senses is the closest you will ever come to conventional reality.

"needing to get to see through the illusion" which right now is SEEN as thought content and BELIEVED to be a way of the mind to shift attention away from direct experience.

YES. The illusion of a separate self is only a thought. The label "self" only points to other thoughts about self; it doesn't point to any entity in reality. Check it!!
If I ask you what does the label pencil point to, you will show me a pencil. What does the label computer point to? This laptop. What does the label desk point to? This piece of furniture. Chair? The object on which I am sitting. But what does the label "self" point to??

Also there is still a BELIEVE that the 'I' is in this body

I now instruct you to take 5 minutes and actually DO this exercise!!! Don't THINK about what it would be like to do it; Just Do It.
Close your eyes. Lift a hand. With a finger, Point to the place where the "I" is. Make sure you've got it! Then open your eyes and tell me exactly what you see with the eyes in the head.

How many body parts are required to be "composited" before an "I" exists?
If you cannot find the "I" in the parts, at all, how can "I" be the "composite"? Where does "I" go when we take the composite apart??
Answer this before we attempt any more.

love
Nona

[Blacklight]

Hi Nona,

You are still trying to Understand this, to think your way out of a box that isn't here. You have the evidence of your senses, which is not what you learned as a child; then you have the stories mind tells you, which do match what you learned as a child. Isn't it possible that the child got it wrong? In your experience, do children grasp the whole picture easily? Or do they get it mixed up?

Yes, it is easily possible that children get something wrong...

No sweetheart. I don't know what you think awareness is, but it is never absent. Never. If there is an object, there is awareness; they are inseparable.
So what I think you are telling me is FOCUS was there for short moments; that you only rarely Focus on the information your senses pick up.

Yes, that is what I meant. Awareness is the wrong term, I meant mindfulness, i.e. focused attention on the present moment.

A regular break is a great idea!! Please use it to LOOK around you and notice what is really going on in that moment! Colours are happening; movement is happening; tactile sensations are happening—what is NOT happening is whatever meaning you put on the colours, the movement, the tactile sensations. ALL meaning is in thought! Life is just happening, and then you think about it. What I want you to FOCUS on is the Life is just happening part.

I took several brakes today and saw the body getting up, walking around in the office, going to the toilet. I saw the eyes moving without explicit desire to look around or anything else that told them to do so.

Every story the mind creates is like the story of Santa Claus, or of Batman, or of unicorns; it's just a fiction. Why do you Believe the Story when the evidence of your direct experience opposes it?? Mind's job is to make sense of experience, and this just doesn't make any sense!

The mind insists on the stories being "predictions", i.e. events that - in contrast to Batman and Santa Clause - might really occur and sometimes do.

Where is your evidence, except a thought, that you need something that is not already present? The evidence of mind is invariably a thought; the evidence of the senses is the closest you will ever come to conventional reality.

Yes, it does make sense that the evidence of the senses is much closer to reality than the content of thoughts. This is also seen in the difference in clarity between what is really seen and what is imagined to be seen.

YES. The illusion of a separate self is only a thought. The label "self" only points to other thoughts about self; it doesn't point to any entity in reality. Check it!!

I checked and I haven't yet found any other evidences of "self" outside of thought. A funny side note: When I ask "who am I" there are immediately thoughts and images coming up. When I ask "what is 'I'" there is silence for a while.

If I ask you what does the label pencil point to, you will show me a pencil. What does the label computer point to? This laptop. What does the label desk point to? This piece of furniture. Chair? The object on which I am sitting. But what does the label "self" point to??
I now instruct you to take 5 minutes and actually DO this exercise!!! Don't THINK about what it would be like to do it; Just Do It.
Close your eyes. Lift a hand. With a finger, Point to the place where the "I" is. Make sure you've got it! Then open your eyes and tell me exactly what you see with the eyes in the head.

I see the right index finger pointing to the mouth.

How many body parts are required to be "composited" before an "I" exists?
If you cannot find the "I" in the parts, at all, how can "I" be the "composite"? Where does "I" go when we take the composite apart??
Answer this before we attempt any more.

Thought says "a head and a trunk" are required for an 'I' to exist. How do I check these questions in direct experience?

Sleep well
Martin

[nonaparry]

Hi Martin!

what I think you are telling me is FOCUS was there for short moments; that you only rarely Focus on the information your senses pick up.
Yes, that is what I meant. Awareness is the wrong term, I meant mindfulness, i.e. focused attention on the present moment.

I don't actually know if it's possible to focus attention on "the present moment"; I want you to focus attention on the sensations you experience, on touch, vision, hearing, smelling, tasting. I want you to notice if the sensations are separate from what appears to produce them.
For example, a noise occurs. Where, in reality, is the noise taking place? Where is it heard? Can you separate the noise from the hearing of it except in thought?

I took several brakes today and saw the body getting up, walking around in the office, going to the toilet. I saw the eyes moving without explicit desire to look around or anything else that told them to do so.

Now let's be more careful with language so we don't get into confusion.
You SAW the body getting up, is that true? With the eyes in the head? Frankly, when this body gets up, I'm not looking at the body with the eyes in the head; I am usually looking at a place the body is moving toward or at an object which is the focus of the body's movement. I am able to see the front of this body from the shoulders down, but I rarely look at it directly; I have a picture in mind of what the body looks like and I use it as my reference.

You SAW the eyes moving?? I am completely incapable of seeing the eyes in this head. With some effort I can see each side of the nose, but not both sides at once. I can see the mouth only if I purse the lips. I am unable to see the chin, cheeks, temples, forehead or neck at all!

The mind insists on the stories being "predictions", i.e. events that - in contrast to Batman and Santa Clause - might really occur and sometimes do.

Mind can insist all it wants, but there is no evidence outside of more thoughts that it has predictive power.
Mind organises experience into stories, providing a smooth seamless description or explanation of what has occurred. But the experience of sensations is NOT smooth and seamless; mind is plastering over the lumps and bumps, the holes and gaps in experience, just to make life "look better", like on television or in the movies. But the actual experience of what is happening around us is NOT smooth and seamless. I invite you to use the senses to check this!!

Close the eyes, and sitting still, attempt to discover, without reference to memory, the boundaries of the body. With eyes closed, and not referring to memory, do you directly experience how tall the body is? The distance between the skull and the heel? The length of the arms? Do you directly experience the shape of the body? It's gender? It's colour? With eyes closed, and not referring to memory, do you directly experience a boundary where skin stops and clothing begins? Without referring to memory, to thought, what do you directly experience about this body? It's name? passport number? Check it!
Isn't most of what you think you know about the body just thoughts, and not your experience at all?

Yes, it does make sense that the evidence of the senses is much closer to reality than the content of thoughts. This is also seen in the difference in clarity between what is really seen and what is imagined to be seen.

The evidence of the senses is as close to conventional reality as you are likely to get. The content of a thought is invariably imaginary.
You can test it!
Think of a cup. See it clearly in the mind. Notice its size, its shape, does it have a handle, is it decorated, what its volume is. Keep thinking until it's clear in your thought.
Now, can I pour real liquid into the cup that is a picture in your mind? Can you actually drink out of a picture in your mind? No—this cup is only a picture, an image—it's imaginary.

I checked and I haven't yet found any other evidences of "self" outside of thought.

YES!!! Good noticing!!

A funny side note: When I ask "who am I" there are immediately thoughts and images coming up. When I ask "what is 'I'" there is silence for a while.

Asking the question "Who am I" is like dividing by zero; it's a question that is meaningless. There is no Who that is "I" at all! In the absence of physical evidence of a Who that I might be, mind throws stories, thoughts, at the question.
But the question WHAT is I is meaningful, and can be investigated. That's what I ask you to do here: check out What exactly I is in your direct experience!

Close your eyes. Lift a hand. With a finger, Point to the place where the "I" is. Make sure you've got it! Then open your eyes and tell me exactly what you see with the eyes in the head.

I see the right index finger pointing to the mouth.

Good. Now purse your lips and look down so you can see them. Rub the tongue over the lips feeling for an "I". Is there an "I" anywhere on the mouth?? Rub the tongue all around the inside of the mouth feeling for an "I"; is there an "I" in the mouth? Or on the mouth? In your direct experience?

How many body parts are required to be "composited" before an "I" exists?

Thought says "a head and a trunk" are required for an 'I' to exist. How do I check these questions in direct experience?

Unless you are keen to deconstruct your body, we will have to use something else that is seen as a composite and take it apart, comparing it to a body.
Let's use a chariot, as this is a famous example.
I show you a chariot as an object with parts. Let's say this chariot has 672 parts.
So Chariot definition (D): the chariot = (the sum of 672 parts)

OK, so let's say you're driving the chariot down the road and hit a pothole. One of the wooden spokes falls out of the wheel. But you are able to keep on going. According to the chariot definition (D), the chariot would no longer be a chariot. Why not? Because the sum is different. There are only 671 parts, whereas our definition calls for 672 parts.

But that would be absurd — one piece of wood falls away, and now you're not driving a chariot anymore? We really want to be able to say that we are still driving a chariot!

And if we keep losing parts, then sooner or later there will come a point where we don't call it a chariot anymore. But that place is not rule-governed or established in advance.

That is why it is said that the chariot is not exactly the parts or the sum of its parts or any part in particular. Rather, "the chariot" being a real chariot depends not only on the parts but on an imputation (a thought!) that CALLS those parts a chariot. But there is no one thing and no combination of things that answer that description. That's the beauty of it.

love
Nona