Requesting Guided

[Steve]

Hi, Mark. You're peeling back the thought layers. Great work! I'm going to give you space to continue the current investigations. I'll just add a few pointers to consider while you continue.

The "me" is like jumbled sensation and thought, expectations about the future. It's really more about the future than the past. They are related to WORRY. There are thoughts that assume expected failure, trouble, disappointing those I care about. They always tend to the worst scenario imagined. This combination may be the sense of me. It's like I "know" the things thought and felt will happen. Of course, that is not reasonable and nothing is happening now that has anything to do with those thoughts and sensations (tightness).

Yes. You see that the body responds to the thought stories. What is the future, anyway? It is a completely made-up thing. There is no future (or past), except in the mind. There is only really the now. And it’s always now! Focusing on an imaginary “me” on a path to an imaginary future is a piece of runaway fiction. As you said, "nothing is happening now that has anything to do with those thoughts and sensations." That's true even when you forget it and seem to get lost in the stories. Not only that, you still know it's true even when you seem to forget it.

There is fear that the illusion is so deeply believed that it can never be seen as illusion permanently.

See how this is another story about a fictional future.

I feel like I have an understanding of all this. I can apply it in experience. It is just still not perceived as "the normal mode of perception". I think that this makes sense, because there are years and years of not seeing. Lots of belif and habit. At the same time the EXPECTATION... of what it is like to be free from self indicates a "click" and clear transformation.

You are right. The habitual thought patterns of a lifetime don't simply evaporate. Don't look for them to disappear. They won't. (Sorry!) They'll even still grab your attention from time to time. That's all perfectly normal.

The difference will be that you'll have seen through the constellation of thoughts and feelings and sensations that you previously believed to be a separate self called "Mark." You'll see through it thoroughly, and you won't believe in that "Mark" any more, just as you don't believe in Santa Claus.

That's what you're investigating now, the component parts of the belief in a separate self. Once you see their operation clearly, there's no going back. There may or may not be an instant you identify as a "click." For some there is, and for some it's more gradual.

Keep up the good work!

With Love,
Steve

[Markered]

Markered wrote:
There is fear that the illusion is so deeply believed that it can never be seen as illusion permanently.

See how this is another story about a fictional future.

Yes!

Here's a report of a general experience: I was sitting for a break from work, outside, in a couryard. There was a thought, "I'm confused, lost, I can't do this! I can't sort all this stuff out". The thought wasn't necessarily words. So everything seemed defeating. I then let go. I allowed thoughts to be thoughts, seeing to be seeing, sensations to be sensations, etc... the unique thing about this experience is that I just stopped labeling. Not even "tree". There was no me to think about. There was only now, but without a label. Just no labels! I mean they arose but arose as labels. All sense of time was gone. All planning and all me, even though I had to come back to work and knew this. There were no expectations. Actually, there were thoughts. Expectations were allowed to be, all thoughts were. They simply had no hold. They simply weren't me. I had an urge to post my experience. Realized urge as urge, no struggle. Just sitting, seeing, whatever happened. Other thoughts appeared in the same way. There was a noticing that all thoughts are thoughts. "I" is collection of thoughts, randomly changing composition, but always consisting of imagined character. There is just ease. One thing noticed once again was that nothing will be what is expected. I realized that I have been slipping into thought as I attempt to see through "I". I realized a simpilcity of everything. I never perceived the idea of simplicity in this way. We'll see where it goes. Right now is a state probably, but it seems like a good step in the right direction. I'll let it unfold and probably post later today. Thank you so much Steve!

Mark

[Markered]

Markered wrote:
There is difficulty when transitioning from dedicated looking, with limited distraction, and times of distraction, such as when my girlfriend is near, co-workers are near, people in general.

Yes. It can feel as if there's a different quality to experience when you're more distracted or less distracted. Investigate this. Really look at it. What exactly is different? Do you feel different? Do you feel any more or less yourself? Or is it simply that various phenomena arise, engage your attention, and subside, like waves on the ocean?

Sitting at a picnic table with other dog owners at my apartment complex. Friends, but I have no interest in any of the conversation. It's about the dogs getting out and playing, not the people, so we are all friends through dogs. The other people share common interests. I do not. Approaching the table there is expectation of greetings, in the form of thought. Dreading in the form of thought. Dreading of the hollow interaction that seems to be fuller for the others. I don't want to have interest in it. All kinds of thoughts. "I am not interested". "They are boring". "I have better things to do, like liberation". "I want to go back inside to eliminate these distractions". On prior days these thoughts consume me. Today it was different. The thoughts were seen, acknowledged, and somehow just left alone. They faded out of awareness, whereas they used to linger for the duration of the interaction. Then, awareness was spontaneous (of which I BELIEVE but don't KNOW it always is). Less analyzing, less strain. Letting it be. Some thought processes played out, but they all fell away in little time. So there really is no difference between distraction and less distraction. The conclusion is that nothing can be distracting. It is all experienced, or not. When these people spoke to each other I either was hearing or not. It made no difference, not to me, not to them. NO ONE CARED. All the thoughts of "dang, I gotta act this way or that way, gotta not act too strange, gotta act like I am interested" fell away. It was obvious in prior interactions dominated by thoughts like this, and associated feelings, were not what I had assumed. Others are not thinking what I think they are. And also, what can care if they were? "I" could care. But "I" must fall away like all other thoughts.

For most of this time I left "I" alone, didn't look for it, didn't try to identify it. There wasn't really any content to analyze. Just things happening, not identifying. There was a little bit of "I"/"Me" sense. Very subtle thought, and very fleeting. Nothing really. The sense was not powerful. It was thoughts, maybe very slight tightness sensation (not really sure in memory now, so definitely not much). The thoughts are characterized by obligation. What am I obligated to do in this situation, concerning these other people. Memories are referenced to satisfy this obligation. Memories are used to create the self that carries out the thoughts. And future thoughts predict how it will turn out. Bizarre.


I still find that expectations are there. They come up. Thoughts of "where is it?" "I'm doing everything to look, where is it!!?". So what am I expecting? Shift. Change of disposition. Truth. Then I stop bullshitting myself. I expect to feel good all the time. I expect to be above everything, to have perfect knowledge (don't even know what that really is. Must be to be regarded as having perfect knowledge), to gain freedom from smallness, pettiness, trifles, bad feelings, lies... I expect clarity and a soft voice with powerful words. I expect to rise above all. There's my cat.

[Steve]

Wonderful reports today, Mark!

There may not always be the same sense of ease. But you know now that fluctuations in feeling can't affect the truth of what you've seen. Just ask yourself, "Is there a separate self right now?" And, "Is the current time ever not right now?"

There was a little bit of "I"/"Me" sense. Very subtle thought, and very fleeting. Nothing really. The sense was not powerful. It was thoughts, maybe very slight tightness sensation (not really sure in memory now, so definitely not much). The thoughts are characterized by obligation. What am I obligated to do in this situation, concerning these other people. Memories are referenced to satisfy this obligation. Memories are used to create the self that carries out the thoughts. And future thoughts predict how it will turn out. Bizarre.

That is it in a nutshell.

Keep looking at that sense of self. Don't expect it to fade away. Remember how the article on direct experience mentioned "an unmistakable sense of Aliveness" as a facet of direct experience. Others have called it "the sense of being present." That's certainly not going to vanish. Why would it? But we often find that it gets muddled together with some bodily sensations, like tightness in some part or other, and then thoughts arise containing assumptions about a separate self confined to a body. Look deeply and see whether that's what's happening.

I still find that expectations are there. They come up. Thoughts of "where is it?" "I'm doing everything to look, where is it!!?". So what am I expecting? Shift. Change of disposition. Truth. Then I stop bullshitting myself. I expect to feel good all the time. I expect to be above everything, to have perfect knowledge (don't even know what that really is. Must be to be regarded as having perfect knowledge), to gain freedom from smallness, pettiness, trifles, bad feelings, lies... I expect clarity and a soft voice with powerful words. I expect to rise above all. There's my cat.

Love it! "But you promised me eternal bliss!" "Read the disclaimers again, buddy!" :-) The cat is simply present without having to think about it.

So what remains, Mark? Are you satisfied with the depth and thoroughness of your looking? Are there questions or concerns? There's no rush here. Just stay with complete honesty about what's happening, as you have been.

With Love,
Steve

[Markered]

Keep looking at that sense of self. Don't expect it to fade away. Remember how the article on direct experience mentioned "an unmistakable sense of Aliveness" as a facet of direct experience. Others have called it "the sense of being present." That's certainly not going to vanish. Why would it? But we often find that it gets muddled together with some bodily sensations, like tightness in some part or other, and then thoughts arise containing assumptions about a separate self confined to a body. Look deeply and see whether that's what's happening.

There is no thought of separate self confined to a body. The tightness is nocitced as body's reaction to thought process such as "I don't want this". The sense of aliveness aspect is something less examined in my experience. Now, sense of aliveness is noticed as perception or awareness. Just the fact that awareness is happening, experience is happening, percepion is happening. Of course, the words are thoughts and are only necesassary to expain this conceptually. The experience is just awareness. Any suggestions on examining sense of aliveness, in terms of specific exercise to focus looking?

So what remains, Mark? Are you satisfied with the depth and thoroughness of your looking? Are there questions or concerns? There's no rush here. Just stay with complete honesty about what's happening, as you have been.

Am I satisfied? Absolutely not. There is clarfication but not full knowing of the illusion. Right now it seems that the ignition is on, the engine has turned, and now its time to take off, figure out how to fly and see things as they are. This morning the illusion was unraveling rapidly. I want to push it hard and get through the gate so to speak. I feel like I'm right there on the edge, ready to jump. It's there. The illusion is helpless, laid out in plain sight. How do I finish it off?

There is an assumption that this is "falling" time. That I see through the illusion and things will fall into place, or fall away, like Ilona describes. However, this being an assumption, it is incorrect. So I know there is more to unravel, but I also know (or believe) that it will happen. Maybe this is counteractive. There is not really the same feeling of effort being required. It seems to happen naturally. There is confusion but nothing too concerned with it. The confusion will or will not subside. At the same time there is wanting to destroy self now. It's almost like having the answer and not knowing the formulas, but that I will know the formulas very soon. Not sure this makes sense, but it is what's happening. There is no stopping, that is for sure.

Markered wrote:
I still find that expectations are there. They come up. Thoughts of "where is it?" "I'm doing everything to look, where is it!!?". So what am I expecting? Shift. Change of disposition. Truth. Then I stop bullshitting myself. I expect to feel good all the time. I expect to be above everything, to have perfect knowledge (don't even know what that really is. Must be to be regarded as having perfect knowledge), to gain freedom from smallness, pettiness, trifles, bad feelings, lies... I expect clarity and a soft voice with powerful words. I expect to rise above all. There's my cat.

Love it! "But you promised me eternal bliss!" "Read the disclaimers again, buddy!" :-) The cat is simply present without having to think about it.

It is now noticed that there are no expectations. I gave you "Mark's" expectations. He is fictional. They are memories of expectations, which were always thoughts. They change, come and go, rise and fall, just like the thoughts that they are. Right now, there are no expectations. That is, until a thought of expectation arises. There is no clinging to expectations now. What could cling to them? Examaning this is where I'm at now, which is the whole point. It seems like we're getting to the heart of it. Mind wants to answer but mind is nuts. Mind isn't invited. I could use some guidance in looking at this with intense focus. I find nothing there, and there are glimpeses of this whole spontaneity thing that seem real for the first time. Seems like a true understanding is just out of reach. Here come expectations again. Do you see anything tricking me?

Mark

[Steve]

Hi, Mark.

There is no thought of separate self confined to a body. The tightness is nocitced as body's reaction to thought process such as "I don't want this". The sense of aliveness aspect is something less examined in my experience. Now, sense of aliveness is noticed as perception or awareness. Just the fact that awareness is happening, experience is happening, percepion is happening. Of course, the words are thoughts and are only necesassary to expain this conceptually. The experience is just awareness. Any suggestions on examining sense of aliveness, in terms of specific exercise to focus looking?

There's no need for an exercise. You haven't any confusion on this point.

Am I satisfied? Absolutely not. There is clarfication but not full knowing of the illusion. Right now it seems that the ignition is on, the engine has turned, and now its time to take off, figure out how to fly and see things as they are. This morning the illusion was unraveling rapidly. I want to push it hard and get through the gate so to speak. I feel like I'm right there on the edge, ready to jump. It's there. The illusion is helpless, laid out in plain sight. How do I finish it off?

There is no stopping, that is for sure.

It seems like we're getting to the heart of it. Mind wants to answer but mind is nuts. Mind isn't invited. I could use some guidance in looking at this with intense focus. I find nothing there, and there are glimpeses of this whole spontaneity thing that seem real for the first time. Seems like a true understanding is just out of reach. Here come expectations again. Do you see anything tricking me?

Yes! The illusion is laid out in plain sight and unraveling.

Put aside the glimpses of spontaneity. As you've seen, that's a state, an experience. It comes and goes. Wanting it to be permanent or more frequent is just another expectation.

Now put all your energy here:
There is no separate self. Is it true?

In other words, bring it inside. Earnestly and energetically adopt the hypothesis that there really is no separate self. Really. Not in the abstract. Not as a thought. Really bring it inside, look, and see for yourself "Is it true?"

Do I see anything tricking you? The only thing tricking you now is your conviction that something else needs to happen, that the illusion still needs finishing off. Those also are just thoughts. They arise out of habit and trigger feelings of dissatisfaction, a seeking-flavored energy. Here's something I find helpful:

That restless, compulsive searching for that one bit of knowledge -— that one experience, that one insight that will make everything okay -— is the condition a lot of seekers are in, and it can go on for decades, because there is literally nothing, no bit of knowledge, no specific experience nor insight, that will satisfy you. There is no “you.” Dissatisfaction with what is, is the essence of the illusory self. The self exists (in appearance) due to that very dissatisfaction.

With Love,
Steve

[Markered]

Put aside the glimpses of spontaneity. As you've seen, that's a state, an experience. It comes and goes. Wanting it to be permanent or more frequent is just another expectation.

Yes, got it.

Now put all your energy here:
There is no separate self. Is it true?

In other words, bring it inside. Earnestly and energetically adopt the hypothesis that there really is no separate self. Really. Not in the abstract. Not as a thought. Really bring it inside, look, and see for yourself "Is it true?"

Initially, thoughts are going crazy. It's like they have been jump started and are working furiously to come to an end with this. Definitely unexpected. I am going to sit with this for a while.

Do I see anything tricking you? The only thing tricking you now is your conviction that something else needs to happen, that the illusion still needs finishing off. Those also are just thoughts. They arise out of habit and trigger feelings of dissatisfaction, a seeking-flavored energy.

Yes yes yes. I will sit with this also and update when the smoke clears.

[Markered]

Steve wrote:
Now put all your energy here:
There is no separate self. Is it true?

Hi Steve,

This is what I wrote while sitting on my porch this morning. I felt stuck so decided to write out a lot of stuff, it was very helpful in getting outside of thought process (or so I think). If you feel this is a counter to our mission please don’t hesitate to introduce the Zen stick.

There is seeing of something amusing. Thoughts of telling girlfriend the story later and laughing with her. “I” is reinforced.

Hearing, birds chirping.

Is there a separate self. Is it true? There is constant anticipation, thoughts. There are sounds. There is indistinct seeing. There is body, and feeling/sensation within the body. There is drinking coffee, automatic. There is wind and swaying tree branches and leaves. There is a thought of a perceiver. There is a question of what am I doing / supposed to be doing? The wind blows the paper in the notepad. Paper flutters. The body reacts quickly. The reaction of “Oh, shit!” happens. Hands move quickly. Then calm, accepting. Calm hands slip around paper, delicately, barely touching. Wind flutters paper and hands are lightly touching. Watching this. There is no foundation for “Oh, shit!”.
Thought of what needs to be done. Oh yeah, answer question. Is there a separate self? Is it true? More thoughts, content is irrelevant, just like previous ones. Is there separate self? Looking. Is there something between. There is only thought between. “I/Me”.

It is noticed as a thought that everything seems to be a thought. And they are all of the same nature. They point away from direct experience of what is happening now.
An empty sky with one airplane. There is just seeing. There is thought of imagined inside airplane. Clear distinction between real and not real.
Is there a separate self? Thought of what I will type later. Thought that the mind…who cares? It is known, the value of thought. It is known. What knows it? Mind answer is “there is knowing”. Perhaps there isn’t even a question. That’s a worthless thought.
Is there a separate self? Who cares? What cares? What is asking? Is there something other than now? Not anymore and not yet. How long will “I” sit here? “I”? What is sitting? This “I” cannot exist without reference to past or future. There is sitting. Then there is thought of time, duration, value of time sitting against value of expected things to do. There's the “I/Me”.
Is there a separate self? “I/Me” comes to be believed when a need to change things is felt/thought. Dog is barking on porch, where sitting is happening. “I/Me” attempts to discourage barking. “I/Me” is then believed again. So, there is also a belief that “I/Me” needs to be eliminated from existence. It is a thought. Cannot be controlled in this way. “I/Me” is OK if it is not believed. It is a character! Content of the character is irrelevant.
Its more like there is an “I/Me” living life. The character. It will not stop living its story. But it is not I/Me, only “I/Me”. The “I/Me” is only problematic when it is believed to be I/Me. It is also problematic when “I/Me” feels the need to destroy “I/Me”. There is no I/Me at all, just an “I/Me” that is living experience.
“I/Me” refers to something imaginary. That is all that needs to be known.
I can’t say with certainty that I see through the illusion completely. No, there is no separate self. But I don’t trust anything, especially continuity of me. I will be exploring further.

[Markered]

Wow, just realized I turned your hypothesis into a question. REDO! Haha, I'll see if it changes the nature of the inquiry.

[Steve]

Wow, just realized I turned your hypothesis into a question. REDO! Haha, I'll see if it changes the nature of the inquiry.

Yes, you did.

You asked for the kiyosaku? Okay.

Stop playing around! You've seen the illusion mechanism but now you're indulging in thinking about it.
Take it inside! Let it really sink in. Absorb the implications!

There is no separate self.
Is it true?
LOOK!

And while you're redoing, take the same direct experience inquiry brought to experiencing the senses, to experiencing thinking, to experiencing feeling. Use it on this story: "Mark is seeking liberation." You've been reinforcing that story for a long time. It's become an unquestioned habit.

Who is seeking? With no separate self, who could be seeking?

Who is there to be liberated? With no separate self, there's no one who could possibly be liberated or not liberated.

With Love,
Steve

[Markered]

Thank you Steve. That is very helpful. Back on track

[Markered]

I finally came to understand thinking cannot bring seeing through the illusion. Dead end after dead end. I thought this was known, but it was a thought itself. Thought was confused for looking. Foolish is the feeling. This is good. Just want to reiterate, your guidance is appreciated beyond expression. Thank you for the stick.

[Markered]

Stop playing around! You've seen the illusion mechanism but now you're indulging in thinking about it.
Take it inside! Let it really sink in. Absorb the implications!

There is no separate self.
Is it true?
LOOK!

Yes, it is true. No, there is no separate self. There is thought. There is body. Simple. At first I didn't know how to take it inside. Once I did it was game over for the self. There is nothing required to support the experience of no-self. There is nothing to cling to. There is only a lack of belief. Excitement, relief, peace. This were the initial feelings to result. I slept on it. Woke up. This just is. There's no exicement now. Not really relief or peace either. Those were temporary. But there is no self. There is no struggle for seeking. There is a lack of these things where they have been sitting in experience over and over and over and over.

And while you're redoing, take the same direct experience inquiry brought to experiencing the senses, to experiencing thinking, to experiencing feeling. Use it on this story: "Mark is seeking liberation." You've been reinforcing that story for a long time. It's become an unquestioned habit

There is no power behind the statement. Thoughts cannot be controlled, and they are not willed from anywhere. There are only thoughts that thoughts are willed from somewhere/something. Same with feelings. They cannot be controlled. I cannot say "feel happy" and feel happy". Those are thoughts. I cannot say "feel sad" and feel sad. Those are thoughts and there is no "I". There is no mistake in assuming the there is an I.

Who is seeking? With no separate self, who could be seeking?

Who is seeking? With no separate self, who could be seeking?

Nothing and no one is seeking, or ever was. There was only a thought of seeking.

Who is there to be liberated? With no separate self, there's no one who could possibly be liberated or not liberated.

No one. There is a thought of liberation. Liberation is actually just what is. It is seeing through the illusion.

I would like let things unfold and settle in for a bit. There is no more seeking urge. How do you interpret all this?

Mark

[Steve]

Wonderful, Mark! What a pleasure to read this!

At first I didn't know how to take it inside. Once I did it was game over for the self.

Exactly. This was for you to discover, and you did.

There is no mistake in assuming the there is an I.

Would you write a little more to clarify this? Just because it might be open to misinterpretation.

I would like let things unfold and settle in for a bit.

Certainly let things settle. Good idea. Just be watchful of any interpretive commentary thoughts with analytical content. They'll probably come along, and it's perfectly fine when they do. But their content is suspect. You've seen that all thought content is suspect. It can't touch the actual experience.

How do you interpret all this?

How do you? Are you satisfied you've seen through the illusion of the separate self? No rush. Answer when ready.

With Love,
Steve

[Markered]

Hey Steve,

Thank you! I may have said this before...but thank you for your guidance!

Markered wrote:
There is no mistake in assuming the there is an I.

Would you write a little more to clarify this? Just because it might be open to misinterpretation.

Typo, here's what I meant to type: "There is no mistake in assuming that there is an 'I'". Mark is so clearly seen as an imagined character that there is simply no other way to see Mark. There is a character, an imagined character, not an actual Mark. The character of Mark is a thought. Words cannot sufficiently express this and that's what is becoming very clear. The mind has a tendency to explain everything, conceptualize, put into words. There is no more belief that that is what I am, the mind putting things into words and stories.

Certainly let things settle. Good idea. Just be watchful of any interpretive commentary thoughts with analytical content. They'll probably come along, and it's perfectly fine when they do. But their content is suspect. You've seen that all thought content is suspect. It can't touch the actual experience.

They certainly have come. Confusing at first, even scary. But, it is seen for what it is, THOUGHT. And it definitely can't touch the experience.

How do you? Are you satisfied you've seen through the illusion of the separate self? No rush. Answer when ready.

I'm going to take a little more time before answering this.

Mark