ready to be guided

[arora]

Hi Nick

I'm saying that you don't exist. What feelings are coming up? How does it feel in the body? In the emotions? In thoughts? Be specific.

First response was nothing much came up, sitting with it. My logical explanation to this non-reaction is that it has been read, heard so many times and even intellectually accepted that it did not evoke any strong reaction. Or taking opposite angle that although understood logically, this no-self issue might be too unaccustomed/un-experienced for the mind and body to actually feel it.
But, ignoring the logical reasoning, trying hard to gauge and push harder for whatever is there...it might have been actually a bit of relief..in thoughts..an image of relief from everyday neurosis, indecisions and stresses maybe.
If I was to label the feeble body reaction, it would probably be a hollow inside, emptiness in the body..around stomach area.
There maybe some element of a denial inside as well (really Nick, I struggle with differentiating between what I am feeling and what my head tells me I am feeling)...
That's all I can formulate for now, but look forward to your response and next question :)

Regards
sandeep

[Nick]

If I was to label the feeble body reaction, it would probably be a hollow inside, emptiness in the body..around stomach area

Ok so these are some concrete feelings. There are also the thoughts you described (doubts, denial inside, etc).

Did you choose to have these feelings and thoughts? Is there a you that can control them?

To take it further, Is there some central "core" of you that possesses these feelings and thoughts, that experiences them?

Do they appear within something which is you? Or do they appear and disappear on their own? Take a look...

Nick

[arora]

Hi Nick

I m loving your questions..they are getting juicier and juicier.
Bit of delay in getting back to you is because of my serious intention of getting back to you with something concrete..i m not sure if I still have something very concrete but here is how it has been so far

Did you choose to have these feelings and thoughts?

I can say a very clear no to this..i have been looking at this for a while and can say with certain degree of certainty that I did not choose to have these or any other feelings or thoughts and do not control them

To take it further, Is there some central "core" of you that possesses these feelings and thoughts, that experiences them?

hmm..that gets tricky now..it may be that there is no central core which possesses anything..but receives and reacts to them? may be so

[

Do they appear within something which is you? Or do they appear and disappear on their own? Take a look...

it does feel like they appear within me..although me as not in body me but an amorphous cloud like me..not far from body..

And if I keep looking at a particular feeling that might be present at that moment..it tends to just disappear or gets so feeble that it can't be perceived anymore...so they might appear on their own but disappear either on their own or when looked at.

I am enjoying looking at this and will continue to do so..and look forward to your input on it so far as well.

Many many thanks and regards
Sandeep

[Nick]

it may be that there is no central core which possesses anything..but receives and reacts to them? may be so

Ok so what is it that constitutes this reception and reaction?
If I were to insult you, there would be a reaction, right?
Some thoughts, maybe "how could he say that?"
And some feelings or emotions like hurt or shame or anger or something.
Are those thoughts and feelings which constitute the "reaction" under control? Can you choose them? Can you make them happen or not?

To look even deeper, where is it that the insult is "received" before the reaction happens?

Nick

[arora]

Hi Nick

Are those thoughts and feelings which constitute the "reaction" under control? Can you choose them? Can you make them happen or not?

I think I'd need to make a bit of distinction here..it seems like the primary reaction is not under control..however it might be able to be modified with practice..but at that instant it is not under 'my' control. The secondary reaction which is a reaction to the reaction might be available for a bit more control/thinking by mind.. again, I'm open to the possibility that I could be wrong here but this is what comes to me at the moment.

To look even deeper, where is it that the insult is "received" before the reaction happens?

now, this was hard..I tend to get lost with this..almost like I don't know how to look, it feels too spontaneous to be 'caught in the act'. Do you have any further pointers on how to look maybe?

Till next time Nick
Regards and Love
Sandeep

[Nick]

it seems like the primary reaction is not under control..however it might be able to be modified with practice..but at that instant it is not under 'my' control. The secondary reaction which is a reaction to the reaction might be available for a bit more control/thinking by mind

OK so just examine this assumption and see if it holds up, or is it just a difference of degree...
for instance, if the secondary reaction is under control, what is it that is making the decision or the control? Thoughts, right? Trace it back and see that its thoughts leading to more thoughts leading to more thoughts... see if you can find any point where there is such a thing as a subjective MIND that is orchestrating it, or rather is there just one thought after another, each one conditioned by the last.

Nick

[arora]

Hi Nick

rather is there just one thought after another, each one conditioned by the last.

Yes, when I am able to step out of this stream of thoughts, I can see it is one after the other thought, leading the next one on. Also, I can not trace a central entity doing this.
I have 2 comments on this
1. Thoughts are automatic, and they trigger some feelings or sometimes vice-versa. However the like/dislike of a thought or a feeling feels mine.
2. Seeing this automatic mechanism of thoughts is not my effortless, constant experience, although attempt to see this is at the back of my mind a lot of times during normal day. Would a spontaneous knowing of this be required to see what you are indicating?

Kind Regards and Love
Sandeep

[Nick]

Sandeep,

Regarding #1, just take a close look at this like/dislike of a thought. Notice how the like or dislike is just more thoughts, although in combination with some feeling in the body or emotions. Notice how these things are just like the thoughts, certainly not under control. The thoughts and feelings tell a story which says 'ME'... But does that mean that this story is true?

Regarding #2, the short answer is no. In other words, the thingee we are discussing here (no self) is true, whether you see it or not. Or to put it another way, whether the story is one in which no-self is seen, or whether there appears to be a real self... But it can be really cool to see it, and since its always true, you're seeing it already right now! Hehehe

Nick

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

I'm doing much better now and Nick has moved on...Let's get to work.

Okay, let's not over think this... But as you look keep pushing harder as you go to eliminate anything that gets in the way...

Sandeep, now we need to focus on the gate
"The Gate" being that there is 'no you'...
That's ALL...

Forget everything else,and realize without a doubt THERE IS NO YOU.
And bam! you're done....just like that.
(Then you can get on with your life!)

This is important, eliminate any distractions and mentally challenge this to "it's" oore .

Now think of who you are.. These all exist in your mind as thought's right?

THEN WHO ARE YOU??

Here's the punch line...
Thoughts don't exist.

Challenge each and every thought that comes up, that feels like it belongs to a "you"...
(Including Any doubts, scepticism or what have you.)

If you get stuck I need to know exactly what it is that's getting in the way...

Here's a bonus question...
What is 'IT' that is conscious? <----Yes this to, points at the gate.

[arora]

Hi Cam
Glad to have you back, Let's get to work :)

If you get stuck I need to know exactly what it is that's getting in the way...

[arora]

Hi Cam
Sorry I pressed submit button instead of quote, replying again here.

Ok, so it has been on mind most of the days, fair bit of time, to explore this. And there are little insights which result in "Ah thats right, that makes sense"
I seem to be able to work on it more when there is anxiety or disappointment or anger..I make time to sit and see what who anxiety is for or who that anxiety is around and very soon it sort of looses its grip and there is feeling or relaxation. However the relaxation seems to stop any further query really.

eliminate any distractions and mentally challenge this to "it's" core

It does feel like a bit of mental exercise because I seem to be clearer in my explorations with a rested brain instead of after-a-day-of-work tired brain.

If you get stuck I need to know exactly what it is that's getting in the way...

It seems to work while I can remind myself (too many I's here, arent there) that there is no one here, but not spontaneously. Or I suppose this could be a wrong benchmark that I tend to aim for anyway.

It probably sounded all confused and muddled, because it is so at the moment. But glad to have you back anyway Cam :)
Regards and Love
Sandeep

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

there are little insights which result in "Ah thats right, that makes sense"

And what would those insights be?

I seem to be able to work on it more when there is anxiety or disappointment or anger..

Exactly! This is what liberation is about...Freeing the mind from unnecessary suffering.
Try doing this in "real time" where as soon as you feel something hit ( discomfort ) take a quick second look at the thought that is in the foreground and then "push" past it what's there?

I make time to sit and see what who anxiety is for or who that anxiety is around and very soon it sort of looses its grip and there is feeling or relaxation.

You're doing great Sandeep! This works great from deep lingering thoughts that stick with you, but it sounds like you would like to see this work throughout your day "Off the cuff" this takes practice.
Elkhart Tolle wrote in one of his books that meditation can be attained in one deep single breath, using this and a mental step back and a quick look is all the reassurance one needs in "real time".
Push through the thoughts and you'll see!

It does feel like a bit of mental exercise because I seem to be clearer in my explorations with a rested brain instead of after-a-day-of-work tired brain.

Hey what ever seems to work best, but don't let frustration get in the way...In the end this is a battle you can win!

It seems to work while I can remind myself (too many I's here, arent there) that there is no one here,

Sandeep, I know you've caught glimpses so you know what I'm talking about...WHEN IT HAPPENS JUST LET GO!
You've got this my friend...You're close!

It's always there...FOCUS....Push though thought.

Where is the referent for an "I" "Me" or "You" ?

Keep pushing and let me know where you're at OR if you've got questions be sure to get them out; We need to see this without a doubt.

[arora]

Hi Cam

Hope you are feeling well.

there are little insights which result in "Ah thats right, that makes sense"


And what would those insights be?

Well little insights can be something like this - 'Ah that was just another thought after the previous thought' or 'behind this clear anxiety feeling, there is nothing I can trace'

but sometimes the anxiety/restlessness just takes over and clarity seems to be obscured. And that seems to have been the case for last little while.
Anxiety or intention to get rid of it has worked as trigger to look deeper. So this feeling of helplessness might not be bad thing.
These are the thoughts for now.

Look forward to your reply again.
Much love and regards

Sandeep

[Cam-RT]

Hello my friend...

Well little insights can be something like this - 'Ah that was just another thought after the previous thought' or 'behind this clear anxiety feeling,

there is nothing I can trace'

Exactly!....Excellent work!...These thoughts are merely clouding your head with distractions to keep you from seeing the truth.
The calm that results once it's seen is the reward. (Disassociation with the "Self.)

Anxiety or intention to get rid of it has worked as trigger to look deeper. So this feeling of helplessness might not be bad thing.

Very good!....You're on the right path, keep going!!
It's always there its just obscured by thought's.

Just like when we were young and our parents said there were no monsters in the dark....Just stop believing what's in your head and use reality as the foundation for the truth.

Keep in touch let me know how you're doing.....You're very close!
Take Care.

[Cam-RT]

Hello Sandeep...

In your moments dedicated toward this work, try and see what it is, or who is behind experience...

Is there an experiencer?