Looking for 1 on 1

[Bill]

I think the looking has to do with being aware/awareness of things as in things being different like direct experience of things as they are being experienced. There is something behind the labeling of things, e.g. sitting in a chair and experiencing the feeling of my rear end on the chair is different than the mental stating of "rear end on chair". For me that direct SEEing/experiencing is hard to SEE. I did have the experience once of SEEing/knowing that roses and carnations have no reality, they don't exist as roses and carnations as those are just names we give them. Somehow that experience was a one time thing that has never occurred again and has never occurred in relation to anything thing else.

Yes.. this is what we are after.
You could call it pure perception.
LOOKING is what we're all doing all the time.. except we rarely notice it.
If you're alive, you can't help but be LOOKING.
BUT... we can notice it.
So when I ask you to LOOK.
I want you to drop all the labebling that goes with seeing, hearing touching, even thinking..
It may not be easy, but it can be done, and gets easier with some practice.
Just notice. Just LOOK.

So LOOK right now.. is there an 'I' anywhere to be found in reality?
Can you see one?

So use this method of LOOKING.. to answer this question below.
read it and then LOOK.

Note: this is the 3rd time I've asked this question...
It really needs your full answer..

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there a WHO living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
Big difference.
Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there a WHO living your life?
Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
Big difference.
Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

[Bill]

something I saw...

"There are no words to adequately describe how to see, no maps of how to get there; all I can do is Point to where you should look.
This is not a mental exercise; all the thinking you can ever do will never get you there.
I will give you clue, because I was also a Thinker. Just before I saw it, I suddenly realized that my guide was telling me to LOOK, not to Think. When I looked, I saw it.
What is Looking? It is focusing on your Direct Experience. Seeing with the eyes, hearing with the ears, feeling with the skin, smelling with the nose, tasting with the tongue. Sensation, before it is judged and labeled, is direct experience."

[GotIt]

Computer froze, lost what I had written, so recreating it.

something I saw...

"There are no words to adequately describe how to see, no maps of how to get there; all I can do is Point to where you should look.
This is not a mental exercise; all the thinking you can ever do will never get you there.
I will give you clue, because I was also a Thinker. Just before I saw it, I suddenly realized that my guide was telling me to LOOK, not to Think. When I looked, I saw it.
What is Looking? It is focusing on your Direct Experience. Seeing with the eyes, hearing with the ears, feeling with the skin, smelling with the nose, tasting with the tongue. Sensation, before it is judged and labeled, is direct experience.

This is correct. It's like the way is sensing awareness through experience.

Next, as you move around in your normal activities, check and see if you can find a self moving the body around.
Walking, driving, typing, dressing yourself, etc.
Is there a WHO living your life?

It feels like there is a me getting dressed, doing things like making decisions. There's a me deciding to get dressed.

Or are there just thoughts about everything, including a self, seeming to live your life?
Big difference.

There's a lot of thoughts, and it feels like there's a me making decisions.

Just look at the evidence. In your daily life, in all your actions, keep returning to this focus on the thoughts as you move around. Keep checking if there is something real, besides a thought, that owns and directs the body.

There's no little man or whatever inside me that runs my body, but it does feel like there's a me when it comes to things like deciding to go to the gym and exercise.

Seeing with the eyes, hearing with the ears, feeling with the skin, smelling with the nose, tasting with the tongue.

There is no smell, as it is an interpretation of what is sensed, e.g. it's a labeling of what is smelled that delineates/defines it. I have a lousy sense of smell, so the sentence just came to me that there is no smell as in this smells like a rose, or this smells bad, etc. I didn't see that with the other senses, but it must be true (I'll look at it).

[Bill]

Tell me about this 'me' making decisions.
What does it look like?
Where is it found?

LOOK to see if its really there, or is there a feeling of a me there?
Can you pinpoint it and find it?


I wanted to ask you if I could get some other of our group members to respond to you.
This is one of the longest threads here right now and you do seem sincere in wanting to see.
Can I bring some others here to ask you questions?

Bill

[GotIt]

Hi Bill,

That would be great if you could get other group members to respond.

Tell me about this 'me' making decisions.
What does it look like?
Where is it found?

It's not found anywhere specific. It just seems to me that when I'm deciding, e.g. thinking about when I want to go to the grocery store today, that there is a me making the decision about going today, when to go, etc.

LOOK to see if its really there, or is there a feeling of a me there?
Can you pinpoint it and find it?

I can't pinpoint it specifically. It just feels like there's a me making the decision.

Yes, I really do want this (to SEE), and I've been looking in the last couple of days at the sense thing of, e.g. are my eyes seeing things or just seeing undescribable stuff that gets defined as things, e.g. labeled computer, table, tree, etc. If seems like I'm seeing/sensing things, although I don't think this is correct, e.g. I think I'm sensing items that I then define/label, but I haven't SEEn that or become aware of the defining happening.

I had the very brief experience a while back of SEEing no roses or carnations (just things not "roses" or "carnations"), but have never had that experience since then or with anything else, and haven't been able to get that experience/awareness to happen again (I don't think you can make something happen. It will just happen on it's own, but it hasn't happened since that one time no matter what I do or don't do.), or to SEE that in regards to anything else.

I also feel like I'm not getting this, and am taking a huge long time and many people's time and effort going nowhere, so I don't want to keep taking up people's time. I really want it, and I feel like maybe I just can't/don't/won't get it or something and should stop.

[GotIt]

Oh, and Thanks!

[Bill]

I had the very brief experience a while back of SEEing no roses or carnations (just things not "roses" or "carnations"), but have never had that experience since then or with anything else, and haven't been able to get that experience/awareness to happen again (I don't think you can make something happen. It will just happen on it's own, but it hasn't happened since that one time no matter what I do or don't do.), or to SEE that in regards to anything else.

Rose - get that this is just an 'experience' or a state.
Is this your expectation?
That somehow you will 'SEE' no roses again?
And unless you achieve this 'state' again, you won't 'be' there?

Is there a separate self who is pushing and pulling the universe this way and that?
A separate self seeing roses or no roses?
Could there be?

[GotIt]

Rose - get that this is just an 'experience' or a state.
Is this your expectation?
That somehow you will 'SEE' no roses again?
And unless you achieve this 'state' again, you won't 'be' there?

Okay, thanks for clarifying this. I thought I would see this or experience it with regards to everything, e.g. come to the awareness/realization that this is true of everything and that there is "nothing" there, no tables, trees, cars, frogs, whatever, etc. there as they are all labels put on things, and that the things aren't really what they appear to be.

Is there a separate self who is pushing and pulling the universe this way and that?

No, there is no separate self who is pushing and pulling the universe this way and that. The universe just goes on it's own and does it's own thing.

A separate self seeing roses or no roses?

It feels like there's a me seeing things, or making decisions.

Could there be?

I suppose everything in the universe is all together in some way, e.g. not separate entities, although, things are separate in a way, e.g. a wolf is different than a frog and a frog is different than a wolf, a tree is not a pond, things like that.

[Bill]

It feels like there's a me seeing things, or making decisions.

Could it be that this me is just a projection of your mind?

What is the ultimate source of both your mind and the 'me' you feel?
Could it be its the same source that gives life to or animates every living thing?

So whose mind is it? Who is responsible for creating the thoughts? You?
LOOK Rose.
Let your beliefs drop and just LOOK at whats really here right now.

[GotIt]

Could it be that this me is just a projection of your mind?

It could be.

What is the ultimate source of both your mind and the 'me' you feel?

I don't know where my mind/thoughts come from. I guess I'd say nowhere, and that they (my mind and the "me") don't come from anywhere. I would say they aren't a part of this body/nature as they aren't a physical thing/beingness. There is a physical body, but it doesn't contain the mind and the self or something. The mind and the self aren't somewhere else outside the body though, so I don't know where they come from or what is the ultimate source of them.

Could it be its the same source that gives life to or animates every living thing?

Is there a source or do things just come to life on their own once they are born?

So whose mind is it? Who is responsible for creating the thoughts? You?

It's a mind that I claim as my own. The thoughts aren't created by anyone. They just come on their own.

Let your beliefs drop and just LOOK at whats really here right now.

There's nothing here right now except this physical being/this body (who thinks she's a Rose?).

[Bill]

It's a mind that I claim as my own. The thoughts aren't created by anyone. They just come on their own.

""Let your beliefs drop and just LOOK at whats really here right now.""


There's nothing here right now except this physical being/this body (who thinks she's a Rose?).

What is the 'I' that claims the mind as 'its' own?
Where is it?
Can it be found?

and along those lines...
Who is the 'I' that thinks shes a Rose?
Can this I be found?
Is there a separate entity named 'Rose'??

Don't think about these answers. LOOK to answer them.

[GotIt]

What is the 'I' that claims the mind as 'its' own?
Where is it?
Can it be found?

There is no "I". It can't be found as it isn't anywhere (it's not like a specific thing that can be felt, seen, etc.).

and along those lines...
Who is the 'I' that thinks shes a Rose?
Can this I be found?
Is there a separate entity named 'Rose'??

I don't know who the "I" is that thinks she's a Rose. This "I" can't be found. I have no idea where it came from/comes from. It's not a specific thing.

Is there a separate entity named 'Rose'??

It feels like there is, although there isn't a being named Rose. Maybe Rose is just a name and nothing more. There's just this being that has the name "Rose".

The "I" and the "mind" are two things that aren't real like trees or chairs or a computer.

Who is the 'I' that thinks shes a Rose?

Who is the Rose that thinks she's an "I"?

If, which there isn't, there is no "I" and no "mind" then there's no need to "do" anything, as there is "no thing" to do things.

[Bill]

So from your last answers.... are these just what you 'know' to be true

Or have you actually SEEN this?

Has something changed on your end?
Please elaborate.
If I say, there's no you..... what do you think, feel sense in response??

[GotIt]

Has something changed on your end?
Please elaborate.
If I say, there's no you..... what do you think, feel sense in response??

Nothing has changed on my end. If you say there's no me, I feel the same as I felt before.

"I" and "mind" feel different than things like trees, computers, etc., although there hasn't been any change on my end in how I SEE things. I don't think I've SEEn anything different, like the SEEing of no "self" or the SEEing and understanding of how the story of "me" came into being and then was believed by me. I wish I could SEE this stuff. I just don't have any change in awareness of anything.

I feel like I am LOOKing, nothing's different though. I LOOK and LOOK. I watch myself move through life, LOOK as I experience things or as experience happens and, nothing, nothing is different, nothing's changed--(It won't change, in the way of there being this earth shattering WOW experience (I don't expect to have any earth shattering WOW experience or anything like that), there's just no understanding/awareness of or seeing things differently.).

Sorry to be so negative and disappointing.

[Bill]

Rose,

Thank you for your honesty.
Tell me, do you expect something earth shattering to happen?
Is this really what you expect?

All this is, is seeing that the I is a thought... an illusion.
Really just that alone. It needn't have a big wow factor.
It's seeing that our thoughts, which we take to be concrete 'reality'.... are really not.
They are just thoughts. Its SEEING this.
It's very simple. So simple that its overlooked with a lot of concepts and words.

How could you SEE that your thoughts are not reality?
That they are just thoughts...
Don't answer this right away... just let it in and settle.