Guidance please

[zomajo]

Hi Nenad,

Sorry for the lack of communication, but my broadband has been down and this is the first chance I have had to access the site. The service is still down and wont be up and running again until Thursday so responses might be limited until then.

So how is everything?

The first response that comes is not sure. Has it been seen that there is no self? It felt like it when I last posted whilst on a train, but since things have been up and down. Small things have been noticed like;

Angry words that came out, but there being no feeling of anger and them sounding strange and feeling hollow.

Thoughts coming of what is to be done and then completely different tasks being undertaken.

The lack of control of events and their effortless unfolding.

three days after I last posted however my day took an unexpected and unpleasant turn and things became much less clear. Some very undesirable events transpired which led to emotional hurt of others and whilst this did not have the real heavy feeling that it might have done previously there was still a feeling of responsibility of a me who had acted in a certain way. This felt less strong than before, but it caused doubt and whilst I am certain there is no self, no entity in control I am not sure that this has been seen first hand as there was no definitive seeing. Plus at moments there feels like there is some doubt.

There cannot be a self as this has been seen in many examples that things happen without a controller governing them, but the feeling still returns from time to time that there is a me who suffers / controls / succeeds.

Is this some kind of transition period or is the fact that there is some doubt that creeps in from time to time mean that the truth has not truly been seen?

No answers come when the question is asked "is there a self". More like nothing comes at all...

guidance please?

best wishes
Matt

[nenad]

Hi Matt,

Sorry for the lack of communication, but my broadband has been down and this is the first chance I have had to access the site. The service is still down and wont be up and running again until Thursday so responses might be limited until then.

No worries, it happens.

Small things have been noticed like;

Angry words that came out, but there being no feeling of anger and them sounding strange and feeling hollow.

Thoughts coming of what is to be done and then completely different tasks being undertaken.

The lack of control of events and their effortless unfolding.

Nice. :)

three days after I last posted however my day took an unexpected and unpleasant turn and things became much less clear. Some very undesirable events transpired which led to emotional hurt of others and whilst this did not have the real heavy feeling that it might have done previously there was still a feeling of responsibility of a me who had acted in a certain way.

How do you know if others are emotionally hurt?

This felt less strong than before, but it caused doubt and whilst I am certain there is no self, no entity in control I am not sure that this has been seen first hand as there was no definitive seeing. Plus at moments there feels like there is some doubt.

How should this definite seeing look like?

There cannot be a self as this has been seen in many examples that things happen without a controller governing them, but the feeling still returns from time to time that there is a me who suffers / controls / succeeds.

What is this feeling about? What is it pointing to?

Is this some kind of transition period or is the fact that there is some doubt that creeps in from time to time mean that the truth has not truly been seen?

No, doubt doesn't mean that the truth is not truly seen. Doubt is an opportunity to deepen the clarity :)

No answers come when the question is asked "is there a self". More like nothing comes at all...

No need to wait for an answer to come. Look for answer in immediate experience right now: Is there any experience of separate self right now?

best wishes
Nenad

[zomajo]

How do you know if others are emotionally hurt?

good question. By what is seen, felt and sensed from the other person concerned. Plus there is unpleasant feelings felt which are followed by thoughts about hurt feelings "wrong" actions. It is kind of like when you walk into a room and a person is really stressed, that stress is felt by proximity to that person. Like there is a field of stress in that physical area.

How should this definite seeing look like?

I think there is still an expectation that the seeing will bring some tangible shift in reality whereas it is much more subtle than that. Like this morning for instance hearing other people talk it seems strange how they take reality by making negative comments about the weather, projecting themselves in the future saying things along the lines of "things will be better when this future event happens". These things seem odd when they are observed. thoughts come when these things are observed of "what is already is, thoughts about it will not change it so what's the point of those thoughts". This is not felt in a dismissive way, but in an interested way... curious.

What is this feeling about? What is it pointing to?

This feeling is not pointing to anything it is just a feeling. What is it about? I guess a lifetime of conditioning attaching ownership to objects, experiences, events.

Is there any experience of separate self right now?

No. There is seeing out of the window, the arm lifts the glass and drink passes the lips, there is taste, swallowing, hearing.... This is all just happening.

Can we continue to talk for a few more days and I will describe experiences as I just want observe things with you for a short while to see what comes out. Is that OK?

Thanks
Matt

[nenad]

Can we continue to talk for a few more days and I will describe experiences as I just want observe things with you for a short while to see what comes out. Is that OK?

Yes, that is a very good idea :) Keep looking and describing experiences.

Warm regards,
Nenad

[zomajo]

Hi Nenad,

I hope you are well.

So... experience.... Interesting.

I can see now that there was previously an expectation that once "no self" is seen that there would be some kind of permanent feeling that something was different. This is not the case. Often it is noticed how things are just happening with no doer operating them, but physically / mentally nothing has changed.

There are often interesting experiences of seemingly ordinary things that seem different somehow. Some examples...

- My left hand was moving slowly this morning (on its own of course) and there was pleasure and fascination in the feeling.

- Whilst there is seeing there appears more brilliance and vibrancy at times, like seeing is enhanced somehow without the I.

- a detached feeling, not a feeling of "me" being detached, but just a feeling of non ownership, of observation of this body operating in this life, but with no personal connection to it.

- It is also funny to see how people attach this personal feeling to experience. Like the weather for example, haha! someone might say "it is miserable outside today". Is it? No it is raining that is all. How silly to cause suffering over such an uncontrollable thing as the weather!

There is no me. Sometimes the old habits continue and sometimes they are noticed other times they are not. Sometimes there is just direct experience with no I attaching to it, but this is not a constant state. When DE is there without the I thoughts then there are interesting experiences which arise from this altered state of perception.

Are there any recommendations for deepening the clarity further or just go with whatever happens?

[nenad]

Warm regards Matt!

So... experience.... Interesting.

I can see now that there was previously an expectation that once "no self" is seen that there would be some kind of permanent feeling that something was different. This is not the case. Often it is noticed how things are just happening with no doer operating them, but physically / mentally nothing has changed.

There are often interesting experiences of seemingly ordinary things that seem different somehow. Some examples...

- My left hand was moving slowly this morning (on its own of course) and there was pleasure and fascination in the feeling.

- Whilst there is seeing there appears more brilliance and vibrancy at times, like seeing is enhanced somehow without the I.

- a detached feeling, not a feeling of "me" being detached, but just a feeling of non ownership, of observation of this body operating in this life, but with no personal connection to it.

Nice :)

There is no me.

:) So, do you feel you have seen through illusion of 'I'?

Are there any recommendations for deepening the clarity further or just go with whatever happens?

For start, these questions may help:

Sometimes the old habits continue and sometimes they are noticed other times they are not.

Continued or not, noticed or not, is there an 'I' in any case?

Sometimes there is just direct experience with no I attaching to it, but this is not a constant state. When DE is there without the I thoughts then there are interesting experiences which arise from this altered state of perception.

Even when 'I' thoughts are there is there an 'I' ?
When 'I' thought is there isn't that also a direct experience? I mean DE of a thought, not DE of it's content ('I') :)



And if you feel you have seen through the illusion of separate self, these questions also:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[nenad]

Matt?

[zomajo]

Hi nenad.

Work is busy and I still have no Internet connection at home so not been able to post. The net should be up and running again by tomo so hope to give ur questions full attention I. The next day or two.

Until then... :-)

[zomajo]

So, do you feel you have seen through illusion of 'I'?

Yes

Continued or not, noticed or not, is there an 'I' in any case?

No there are only every I thoughts, no actual I.

Even when 'I' thoughts are there is there an 'I' ?
When 'I' thought is there isn't that also a direct experience? I mean DE of a thought, not DE of it's content ('I') :)

Yes you are right despite what the DE is there is no I. It is like DE is made up of all the sense perceptions, seeing, hearing, thinking etc, but the attention moves from place to place giving one or more of these experiences more impetus.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion if thought based and it starts from early childhood when you are labelled with your name and then taught that certain attributes and belongings are personal or owned. For instance Matt is a very clever boy or this toy belongs to Matt. This conditioning builds and builds as life cotinues and then it reaches the point where everything is labelled mine by the conditioned thoughts. BY everything I mean that all that is experienced through the senses is labelled as my experience, my world. This is a fallacy as everything that is takes place without thought therefore the thoughts are just labels that are habitually given to everything on a concious and subconcious level. We have never been taught to question this.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

More relaxed, any practical problems or issues that come up are no longer personal just situations that are to be dealt with, In DE more subtle things are noticed like how the light reflects of an object or the colours in the trees.
A closeness is often felt like objects in view are connected with "me" regardless of their distance. I guess this could be called a oneness with things. Also yesterday I stood in the queue of a busy supermarket and all the bodies moving around in the scene appeared like the machinations of some larger entity, again this felt like all that was being experienced was part of something larger.. part of the one life.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This one is tricky as there were several points that broke large chunks of the "i" belief away. The final push though was looking for the experiencer in DE. There is none. THis looking particularly in busy places showed how life just unfolds with no I in control.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Nope. Even now thought the illusion of choice, of control pops up, but this is just thought labelling what is in DE as its own. For example there was some traffic on the motorway yesterday and I could take a different route home that is longer or go the short route through the traffic. When the situation arose thoughts started whirring... "shall I go the long way or shall I risk the traffic". The thoughts continued even after the car was in admist the traffic on the shorter route. The thoughts arose because of the situation and although they were saying "i" must make a choice here no decision was actually ever made as the thoughts were still deliberating after the route had been selected. Its easy to see though now how this would create such a strong illusion of control over what happens.

6) Anything to add?

Recently "I" listened to an audio translation of the Bhagavad Gita and whilst it was very powerful and enjoyable the question is raised over the instructions given by the GIta as to how to conduct oneself. There is no self and no control so it seems that actually the DE of some people may evolve in that direction naturally causing some of these type of actions to occur, but it cannot be made to happen by the self as there is no self. This feels good as the effort, the desire for spiritual growth has dropped away which in turn assists spriritual growth as the "desire for the fruit of one actions" as the Gita would put it is dropped. This seems somewhat paradoxical, but in a nice way. This would apply really to all spiritual teaching in that if a person experiences some form of teaching and this leads them to grow in that direction then that is what life has chosen for them they had no control over this. Please comment?

DE each day brings interesting, surprising and new things to light and it is clear that DE will cotninue to develop the persepective of the DE in a constantly changing and moving experience. This feels exciting and slightly daunting to let go, but as there is no self to let go it is not really daunting it is just unknown.

Thank you Nenad things feel great right now and its exciting to see what happens next.

[nenad]

Hi :)

zomajo wrote:

nenad wrote:
Continued or not, noticed or not, is there an 'I' in any case?

No there are only every I thoughts, no actual I.

nenad wrote:
Even when 'I' thoughts are there is there an 'I' ?
When 'I' thought is there isn't that also a direct experience? I mean DE of a thought, not DE of it's content ('I') :)

Yes you are right despite what the DE is there is no I.

Good.

zomajo wrote:

nenad wrote:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No

nenad wrote:
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion if thought based and it starts from early childhood when you are labelled with your name and then taught that certain attributes and belongings are personal or owned. For instance Matt is a very clever boy or this toy belongs to Matt. This conditioning builds and builds as life cotinues and then it reaches the point where everything is labelled mine by the conditioned thoughts. BY everything I mean that all that is experienced through the senses is labelled as my experience, my world. This is a fallacy as everything that is takes place without thought therefore the thoughts are just labels that are habitually given to everything on a concious and subconcious level. We have never been taught to question this.

nenad wrote:
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

More relaxed, any practical problems or issues that come up are no longer personal just situations that are to be dealt with, In DE more subtle things are noticed like how the light reflects of an object or the colours in the trees.
A closeness is often felt like objects in view are connected with "me" regardless of their distance. I guess this could be called a oneness with things. Also yesterday I stood in the queue of a busy supermarket and all the bodies moving around in the scene appeared like the machinations of some larger entity, again this felt like all that was being experienced was part of something larger.. part of the one life.

nenad wrote:
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

This one is tricky as there were several points that broke large chunks of the "i" belief away. The final push though was looking for the experiencer in DE. There is none. THis looking particularly in busy places showed how life just unfolds with no I in control.

nenad wrote:
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Nope. Even now thought the illusion of choice, of control pops up, but this is just thought labelling what is in DE as its own. For example there was some traffic on the motorway yesterday and I could take a different route home that is longer or go the short route through the traffic. When the situation arose thoughts started whirring... "shall I go the long way or shall I risk the traffic". The thoughts continued even after the car was in admist the traffic on the shorter route. The thoughts arose because of the situation and although they were saying "i" must make a choice here no decision was actually ever made as the thoughts were still deliberating after the route had been selected. Its easy to see though now how this would create such a strong illusion of control over what happens.

Nice :)

This feels good as the effort, the desire for spiritual growth has dropped away which in turn assists spriritual growth as the "desire for the fruit of one actions" as the Gita would put it is dropped. This seems somewhat paradoxical, but in a nice way.

Yes, exactly:)

I have asked the other guides if they have additional questions for you. This can help you to further deepen the clarity.

This would apply really to all spiritual teaching in that if a person experiences some form of teaching and this leads them to grow in that direction then that is what life has chosen for them they had no control over this. Please comment?

Can you explain "life has chosen"? How is life choosing?
Is there anything that decides, chooses and controls outcomes? Is there such a thing as cause and effect?

Warm regards :)

[zomajo]

Leave this with me for a day or so and I will reply when ready :)

[nenad]

Of course :)

[zomajo]

Can you explain "life has chosen"? How is life choosing?
Is there anything that decides, chooses and controls outcomes? Is there such a thing as cause and effect?

No I cannot explain how life is choosing. It is not possible to know if there is anything deciding or choosing what happens for certain. This is kind of irrelevant really as even if there is then it is not something that can be influenced or changed. What happens just happens that is all that matters. There is no choosing it or controlling it. There is not even acceptance of it. The way in which life is perceived varies from the perspective of each person, but it is not possible to be able to control this perception either it just is what it is.

by writing "life has chosen" what was really meant was this is what is happening in "my" experience, but not through choice or control as there is no I to chose.

Is there cause and effect? Well there may appear to be through the illusion of self, but again this is not really known only believed. What causes a thought to come? nothing it just comes spontaneously. Things just happen.

The feeling of oneness is growing and a sense of connection with the surroundings feels stronger...

kind regards
matt

[nenad]

Hi Matt, thanks for your replies :)

You have passed the Gateless Gate! Congratulations! :)

I'll send you private message with some info in a few minutes :)

Warm Regards Nenad