I would love some guidance.

[Andrew White]

Hi Mike,

I feel there are some ways I've been watching.
1. Just watching. Noticing - sometimes the mind puts labels "thinking", "itch". Sometimes there is noticing but without verbal labels. There doesn't seem to be much insight directly related to this process.

If you're looking for 'insight' then you're looking for what isn't there - hence it can't be found. It really is this simple - all is arising in the moment, just as it is.

2. Watching, qnd asking question "where is the self?" "Is there a self owning this sensation?" "Is there someone thinking this?" And so on. Seems related, but adds a reasoning aspect to it.

We're just looking for a 'self', don't verbalise the question internally. In seeing that which simply is in the moment can a 'self' be seen or detected? Is it within this field of awareness? If you tried to locate it, where would you find it?

So if this is done and it can't be found, located or otherwise sensed look at what simply is - look at all of the processes, see the world without the assumption of a 'self' in it, because that's all it is, an assumption. It's not a 'thing' to get rid of, any more than when you realise Santa Claus isn't real there's a 'thing' that was got rid of.

You're trying to see through what isn't there, get rid of what doesn't exist. It's much simpler than that. All self is is a belief you hold, a perspective you adopt, an assumption you cling to that can't be supported in direct experience.

So right now, in this very moment as you sit there, you sit there WITH NO SELF.

Man, I know the frustration and anger are connected to some expectation... But the effectiveness of direct pointing is still a big mystery to me at this moment.

Frustration, anger, expectation - all just feelings that arise, thoughts. Not good, not bad, just happening. Nothing really to do with this, are they? See these things, these visitors as they come and go. Anyway, where were we? Oh yes... these things can happen with or without a sense of 'self'. But without a sense of 'self' they're just seen, not believed in. A process that occurs, a reaction that happens.

But when you look at them and think, 'I'll never see as long as I'm frustrated.' the that's just another thought isn't it? And thoughts just arise. They happen. With or without a sense of 'self'. With a sense of 'self' they are believed to happen 'to someone'. Without a sense of 'self' they are just seen to happen as they happen - no different to nails growing, heart beating, rain falling - natural processes occuring.

LOOKING for this, SEEKING it, is a bit like seeking gravity. You don't have to SEEK, just see what's there - it's just what is. The way it is. No other moment, just this moment, this now the way it is.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Zinfandel]

Hi.
I get it like this.
If I am just aware in the moment, none of this applies in a way, because everything is just as it is.
Thoughts are thoughts and sensations are sensations. Sense of self is exactly that, just a sense.
But there is no actual self and also no inquiry into the question.

But when someone asks me: is there a self?
Just like with: is there a santa clause/unicorn?
I need to use my thoughts, since all of them are creations. I need to look at what is present and scan for a self/santa/unicorn.
And all of these are what... Verbal creations!
So I get the impression that either I just go about this the old zen way and spend lifetimes trying to be present and disregard all verbalizations, or I try to disconfirm the presence of a self.

I may be very confused, but I'm probably back where we began (not regarding the whole "there is nowhere to move, all is right here" thing, but thinking that this is a process for all of us beginning with post 1 on the board).

So what do I do, if we're back to meeting for the first time?
Is there any question?

And I am not thinking I won't see because of frustration. Frustration is present because I follow the guiding as best I can and certainty isn't here. Expectations and all aside, it's not like I just have to say: ok, I am sure. You ask me some questions and I make up 'correct' answers.

Thanks for your eternal patience, andrew!

[Andrew White]

Hi Mike,

I get it like this.
If I am just aware in the moment, none of this applies in a way, because everything is just as it is.
Thoughts are thoughts and sensations are sensations. Sense of self is exactly that, just a sense.
But there is no actual self and also no inquiry into the question.

Good. So in the moment, there is no sense of self and no need for any question or enquiry - just what is, right?

But if this 'I' thought comes up look at which arises first, the sense of self or the thought of self followed by the sense. Let me know what you see.

But when someone asks me: is there a self?
Just like with: is there a santa clause/unicorn?
I need to use my thoughts, since all of them are creations. I need to look at what is present and scan for a self/santa/unicorn.
And all of these are what... Verbal creations!

Define these for yourself from direct experience:
Sense (sight, sound, taste, touch....)
Awareness
Perception
Thought
Attribution/judgement

Are they all the same? Look as often as you need to to distinguish each. See these aspects of processes and processes. See the pathways and routes. Watch for patterns.

At what point does thought come in? Does it always come in? Is that stage ever skipped or just arise independently?

Try to slow down and see these processes more slowly, stage by stage.

So I get the impression that either I just go about this the old zen way and spend lifetimes trying to be present and disregard all verbalizations, or I try to disconfirm the presence of a self.

Yes be present, but as for thoughts that arise they can be watched or followed it doesn't matter as long as they are known to just be thoughts. Not real, just thoughts.

You can disconfirm the presence of a self if you like but until you look and see that there really is no self then these words are just another thought aren't they?

I may be very confused, but I'm probably back where we began (not regarding the whole "there is nowhere to move, all is right here" thing, but thinking that this is a process for all of us beginning with post 1 on the board).

It's a process of looking at things not usually looked at, and seing them just as they are not with expectation or assumption or belief - that's all.

When you take the time to just be in the moment, try to let awareness take in what arises - not to judge, not to move towards, move away from, act upon, but just be aware - in awareness see this feeling, that thought arising. Feeling as feeling, thought as thought.

Now see when the 'I' thought arises how does that look? Does it change the experience? What is the feeling with this? Does this thought take over or is it too just seen?

Frustration is present because I follow the guiding as best I can and certainty isn't here.

I'd like you to explore and explain to me more about this certainty and doubt. When we're just looking, without expectation, what is to doubt? What's to be certain about? I'm not sure what you mean here. If I were to look at the the sky and see it as cloudy or blue, what would doubt or certainty mean mean? As it appears would be the way this arises in seeing, it appears this way and that's my honest response. Same looking at anything, as long as you report what arises for you what is there to doubt?

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Zinfandel]

Top of the day Andrew,

Good. So in the moment, there is no sense of self and no need for any question or enquiry - just what is, right?

But if this 'I' thought comes up look at which arises first, the sense of self or the thought of self followed by the sense. Let me know what you see.

It is hard to stay at the top of when this glides in. When it manages to do that, it often does so without me noticing :)
But what I've managed to see is that it goes something like: thought arising about 'me' being there - check for the sense - voila, the sense is there!

Define these for yourself from direct experience:
Sense (sight, sound, taste, touch....)
Awareness
Perception
Thought
Attribution/judgement

Are they all the same? Look as often as you need to to distinguish each. See these aspects of processes and processes. See the pathways and routes. Watch for patterns.

At what point does thought come in? Does it always come in? Is that stage ever skipped or just arise independently?

Awareness seems to be knowledge that there is a sense active. Is that a thought. Hmmm... Because if I look and am not aware, there are still the photons hitting my retina, but no 'seeing'.
Hmm...
Interesting. Is there seeing without awareness (back to the tree in the forest)... But perception seems to be seeing with a reaction. But if you have a reflex reaction to something in the visual field response comes before thought. Am I perceiving it then? This comes down to the definition of 'perception'. The label.

Now see when the 'I' thought arises how does that look? Does it change the experience? What is the feeling with this? Does this thought take over or is it too just seen?

When it takes over it isn't seen :) When it is just seen, it is just a thought. It is a label.

I'd like you to explore and explain to me more about this certainty and doubt. When we're just looking, without expectation, what is to doubt? What's to be certain about? I'm not sure what you mean here. If I were to look at the the sky and see it as cloudy or blue, what would doubt or certainty mean mean? As it appears would be the way this arises in seeing, it appears this way and that's my honest response. Same looking at anything, as long as you report what arises for you what is there to doubt?

I think this is just looking for a sensation or feeling of certainty here.
Perhaps there is an expectation of what this certainty will feel like :)

[Zinfandel]

I need to ask.
Can there be a moment of clarity, and then seeing how one is sucked back into the story of 'me' in another domain?

Like... There is nothing special to the story of mikael compared to others. Really seeing this. But then a story regarding a special worry sucks the 'I' back into defensive mode?

[Andrew White]

Hi Mike,

Only time for a quick reply:

I need to ask.
Can there be a moment of clarity, and then seeing how one is sucked back into the story of 'me' in another domain?

Like... There is nothing special to the story of mikael compared to others. Really seeing this. But then a story regarding a special worry sucks the 'I' back into defensive mode?

Yes. There is no single set way that seeing happens. So you might see - really see as it is for a moment, then that disappears and you get sucked back into the content, or narrative.

Don't cling to the experience of seeing, don't try to recreate it or bring it back. Stay in this moment, as you have been and observe what arises - thoughts, feelings, senses etc. Rest in these just being without making anything from them.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Andrew White]

Hi Mike,

It is hard to stay at the top of when this glides in. When it manages to do that, it often does so without me noticing :)
But what I've managed to see is that it goes something like: thought arising about 'me' being there - check for the sense - voila, the sense is there!

So is this 'I' thought about a real thing? Like a thought about your car?
What is it?

Awareness seems to be knowledge that there is a sense active. Is that a thought. Hmmm... Because if I look and am not aware, there are still the photons hitting my retina, but no 'seeing'.
Hmm...
Interesting. Is there seeing without awareness (back to the tree in the forest)... But perception seems to be seeing with a reaction. But if you have a reflex reaction to something in the visual field response comes before thought. Am I perceiving it then? This comes down to the definition of 'perception'. The label.

So there are processes here, pathways. Take a day and see these in action and really try to see the mechanism of choice. See those pathways. Is there an 'I' making the choice or is choice just part of this process?

When it takes over it isn't seen :) When it is just seen, it is just a thought. It is a label.

Take a closer look at this, watch it throughout the day. From being in the moment and the quality of that experience to the thought of 'I' or 'me' arising and that experience.

I think this is just looking for a sensation or feeling of certainty here.
Perhaps there is an expectation of what this certainty will feel like :)

Certainty is just another part of the story, part of the illusion. Only this moment is real isn't it? Certainty can only be certainty of this right here now, and even that can only be said to be that which arises in the senses - which can be fooled.

But behind your question is the idea of future. So what is future? How do you know there is 'future' or 'past'?

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Zinfandel]

Hi Andrew!

So is this 'I' thought about a real thing? Like a thought about your car?
What is it?

No, it is a thought referring to a thought and mistakenly taking the sense for proof.
It's like an error "If it feels like it, it's gotta be so!"

But behind your question is the idea of future. So what is future? How do you know there is 'future' or 'past'?

It's an idea. Memories and imagination. Interesting, they're all just thoughts which are placed in these illusory categories 'future' and 'past'. There is something tagging these thoughts so they are placed there. And as I said before thoughts don't exist, so they are created in the moment in this process of thinking. It's not hard to imagine (yep!) that with a neurological disorder these categories would be totally messed up. I mean most of us create lots of additional stuff when remembering something anyways ('false' memories, etc).

[Andrew White]

Hi Mike,

No, it is a thought referring to a thought and mistakenly taking the sense for proof.
It's like an error "If it feels like it, it's gotta be so!"

So take this a little further. If it's a feeling can it be let go? Like when you see through some small frustration and laugh and let it go.

It's an idea. Memories and imagination. Interesting, they're all just thoughts which are placed in these illusory categories 'future' and 'past'. There is something tagging these thoughts so they are placed there. And as I said before thoughts don't exist, so they are created in the moment in this process of thinking. It's not hard to imagine (yep!) that with a neurological disorder these categories would be totally messed up. I mean most of us create lots of additional stuff when remembering something anyways ('false' memories, etc).

As 'things' arise today then watch this labelling, see the process try to lead the story of Mike into some imagined future - and bring it back to where you are now. Focus on your exact surrounding, sights, sounds etc. Same with the past - keep practising this being in the present. Be where you are.

Within this watch as the 'I' thought appears and see how this label attaches to experiences and wants to own them.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Zinfandel]

So take this a little further. If it's a feeling can it be let go? Like when you see through some small frustration and laugh and let it go.

Yup it can. I know firsthand :)
It just has to be done repeatedly because of automatization (or habit as we call it :).

As 'things' arise today then watch this labelling, see the process try to lead the story of Mike into some imagined future - and bring it back to where you are now. Focus on your exact surrounding, sights, sounds etc. Same with the past - keep practising this being in the present. Be where you are.

Within this watch as the 'I' thought appears and see how this label attaches to experiences and wants to own them.

Will do! Thank you!

[Zinfandel]

Hi Andrew.

Yeah, the I attaches to the negative future thought out.
It actually took a while, but remembering the emptiness behind seems to have taken place. There is a little residue left, but there was like some easing of it all.

All of us were part of the big painting :)

I have to ask, what is awareness but a concept?
Be aware, they say.
Mindfulness.
There is seeing, there is thinking, there is pain.

But when it's not known it's not known. Then it doesn't exist.
Like when being lost in a thought story. The thought is not known as a story, but there is no 'awareness'.
But the functions of the organism go on. The story continues in thought. Life continues.
All processes go on, but it is not known, but perhaps in retrospect.

[Andrew White]

Hi Mike,

Outstanding!

Yeah, the I attaches to the negative future thought out.
It actually took a while, but remembering the emptiness behind seems to have taken place. There is a little residue left, but there was like some easing of it all.

So see when this happens the movement to be part of the story. Like getting on the thought train...
But when seen, see the process: that which arises in sight, awareness of it, perception, judgement, response - processes that run. Which of these NEEDS an 'I' to happen? Which one is the 'I'? If there were no 'I' ever which one couldn't function?

All of us were part of the big painting :)

Yep. You got it :)

I have to ask, what is awareness but a concept?

Do 'I' know what awareness is? No, haven't a clue. Concept? Label? Who is there to 'know' these things?

Be aware, they say.
Mindfulness.
There is seeing, there is thinking, there is pain.

Yep. Al labels for what simply is. Anything to add?

But when it's not known it's not known. Then it doesn't exist.
Like when being lost in a thought story. The thought is not known as a story, but there is no 'awareness'.
But the functions of the organism go on. The story continues in thought. Life continues.
All processes go on, but it is not known, but perhaps in retrospect.

:)

Do you have your permission to see now?

Besy wishes,

Andrew

[Zinfandel]

Do you have your permission to see now?

To be completely honest I think I have :-)

[Zinfandel]

As in seen. :)

[Andrew White]

Hi Mike,

It seemed so from your last post :)

One final note I might just add here - seeing is seeing as it is: patterns of behaviour; conditioned responses; things arising in senses etc. Patterns and conditioning may/may not drop away, or some might drop away, others persist, some drop away over time etc. This all comes back to expectation - just be - no real need to 'think it'.

So give it as much time as you need and let me know how it goes. There are final questions whenever you're ready, just say when.

Take care,

Andrew