Ready to dive in...

[vinceschubert]

there's just the moment as it is

Yes, just this.
..and that produces a zero surface tension that allows nothing to stick. Everything simple runs off. Like water off a ducks back.
You might speculate about how perfect that is, but it won't stick either. It's just mental water.
But don't think about it.
Swim in it.
Burrow down to where it is Experiencing...

love

vince

[ixturtle]

bustling about today with little moments here and there of noticing that underneath the buzz of mind there's just what's here. i expect that with "true seeing" the experience of the world would be subtly but distinctly different than it is, but that's story. i expect the boundaries between me and you and the parmesan jar to dissolve or at least blur a bit at least some of the time, but that's a story that sits on top of the story of the labels and the boundaries. so there's what's here, and there's story about what's not here and it's seen as story when i remember to look. story of "me" still more or less running the show but there's some softness at the moment that that story is "already allowed" too.

[vinceschubert]

This sounds like SEEing to me.

love

vince

[ixturtle]

This sounds like SEEing to me.

any argument i have is just more story...

i don't want to fight with this anymore.
yet to "stop looking" feels like giving up.

you're the captain of this string here so what do you suggest...?

best,
ix

[vinceschubert]

any argument i have is just more story...

Well seen.

i don't want to fight with this anymore.

good. Fighting is also playing in storyland.

yet to "stop looking" feels like giving up.

Would it be accurate to say that what you mean by "stop looking" is really stop searching ?
"giving up" has several connotations. There is the giving up where you just abandon any idea of liberation and sink with resignation back into story. (do you think that this is possible ?)
Then there is the giving up that is an acceptance that the search is fruitless, and that what you have been looking for may well come to you, rather than you hunting it down. i would call this Surrendering to the inevitable.

you're the captain of this string here

No, no, no. i'm just the guy pointing at the moon. You're the captain. ..or maybe nobody's in charge.

so what do you suggest...?

Be kind to animals.

love

vince

[ixturtle]

There is the giving up where you just abandon any idea of liberation and sink with resignation back into story. (do you think that this is possible ?)

the percent of time delegated to this material vs. busy life does seem to dictate how caught up this meat sack gets. so abandoning "the search" does seem to come at the risk of sinking back into story. that said, there does appear to be a growing confidence -- at least in some arenas-- in the distinction between what's happening and the mind's story about what's happening. when that's seen, it's easy to soften. around SOME things. personal relationships are the doozy-- because they still feel "personal".

"this is it," feels knowable. but doubt arises because the impersonal still seems out of reach. doubt is the story i didn't want to get into ... personal/impersonal, all blah blah blah in my head.

so blah blah blah exists and so does everything else in this moment and there's no need for anything to be different. so why be inspired to show up here?

Then there is the giving up that is an acceptance that the search is fruitless, and that what you have been looking for may well come to you, rather than you hunting it down. i would call this Surrendering to the inevitable.

There is fear that in surrendering, "i lose" and "I won't get what i want" and this life will continue under the weight of its swirling mass of story. That there is nothing inevitable about seeing...

Be kind to animals.

I love that this was your answer. Made me smile and laugh too and also feel so grateful that you showed up as this meat sack's guide. Be kind to animals, of which of course humans are among. Be kind and let the moment be enough. What else is there?

[vinceschubert]

There is fear

shitty story, that one...

"i lose"

What ?, the I that is a thought, will have "lose" thoughts about itself ?

"I won't get what i want"

..Ah!, this is the big one, the crux.
What you want is not real.
What you want is a better dream character.
Like the I that is thought having shitty losing thoughts about itself, This I that is a thought pattern, wants to have beautiful and pleasant and even blissful thoughts about itself, in order to have nice sensations. A perpetual heroin high might do that. (until you come down and face the other side of the coin, or the body dies)

"this is it," feels knowable.

Here is where the underlying OK-ness resides. Then, shitty or beautiful experiencing, there is always a wonder-filled discovery of appreciation of even the most (previously) mundane things.
There is nothing to know. ..or rather 'knowing' happens with the shift in perception, that recognizes the inevitable 'What IS', just IS !
The 'how' or 'why' or 'what' is another story. The experiencing (without thought) is Reality. Period!


love

vince

[ixturtle]

What ?, the I that is a thought, will have "lose" thoughts about itself ?

does seem pretty silly, huh?

'What IS', just IS ! The 'how' or 'why' or 'what' is another story. The experiencing (without thought) is Reality. Period!

i know it must seem like we keep going round and round to the same thing again and again, but each time we do, it does seem to penetrate a little more.

if there's a problem, it's happening in the mind, and the mind-- while real in the sense that its stories are showing up in consciousness-- does not produce anything other than stories, which are not real. in other words, problems are stories which are not real.

INCLUDING the story that "'i'm not there yet."

ha ha ha.

[vinceschubert]

ha ha ha.

Yes, that's it.

if there's a problem, it's happening in the mind, and the mind-- while real in the sense that its stories are showing up in consciousness-- does not produce anything other than stories, which are not real. in other words, problems are stories which are not real.

Now 'put' the stories into the same level of importance as the sound of the refrigerator.
If something in the fridge needs attention, then the change in sound will alert you.
If a thought might lead to something useful, it will alert you to notice it.
Otherwise, let them drop into the background and pass by unnoticed just like the sound of the refrigerator.
Once the stories are seen for what they are, the very real (emotional) response to those stories changes. How can you be fearful that the coil of rope is a snake, once you know it is just rope ?
How much energy do you think this might free up ? No more highly stressful episodes. (well, less episodes and less intense.)
Now, remembering that the default human condition is happiness, How much extra happiness can replace the stressful state. (nice story, aye ?)

love

vince

[ixturtle]

Now 'put' the stories into the same level of importance as the sound of the refrigerator.

some are easier than others, but it all feels more obvious now.

If something in the fridge needs attention, then the change in sound will alert you.
If a thought might lead to something useful, it will alert you to notice it.

right, this is helpful.

How can you be fearful that the coil of rope is a snake, once you know it is just rope ?

just rope = no fear. absolutely. that is, i suppose, unless someone's determined to loop it around your neck... in which case meatsack's survival instincts kick in. otherwise, rope is just rope.

mind still occasionally sees snakes... yesterday a physical fear arose and it occurred to me that the fear was entirely in the mind-- i had no evidence for it other than a nagging feeling-- i mostly let it go for the time being, but it wasn't until i was later able to actually go confirm in physical space that indeed it was all just rope, that a full sense of ease returned.

How much energy do you think this might free up ?

a lot. whenever i notice story vs. reality and have the wherewithal to "choose" the latter, i then get to enjoy the nuances of reality. fun fun. thinking thinking thinking is exhausting... but still, a subtle sense of "choice" remains... got any zingers to illuminate that one?

"this is it" has moments of getting brighter... or more distinct. like the world pops out in a subtle way... i guess because in those moments there's no added layer; no need for anything to be different.

[vinceschubert]

i mostly let it go for the time being, but it wasn't until i was later able to actually go confirm in physical space that indeed it was all just rope, that a full sense of ease returned.

"Mostly let go", can easily be a "full sense of ease", with the realization that there is no benefit whatsoever with any identification to a story of how it might turn out.
Until the discovery occurs, there is just THIS.

thinking thinking thinking is exhausting...

Ha, well a couple of things jump out here.
You are judging the thinking as something 'wrong'.
It is as much a part of THIS, as your breathing is.
i have no idea whether i'll ever deepen enough that thought will stop. It remains part of the great mystery, so no real point in having a story about it.
In the meantime, thoughts are there. Just like the sound of the refrigerator.
i sometimes use the sound of the refrigerator to meditate on.
The sound tells me that the fridge is working as it should.
That is when i pay attention to it. For the rest of the time it is not noticed.
Now that you recognize their (mostly) lack of importance, you can start to not notice your thoughts, unless they are useful. You can meditate on their existence, or on their behavior. They are useful for the purpose of communicating. They have many uses.

but still, a subtle sense of "choice" remains... got any zingers to illuminate that one?

The 'sense' of self, or the 'sense' of choice, a 'sense' of ownership, along with many other 'sense of's are the remnants of conditioning, of habit. They will lessen, weaken, and eventually appear very occasionally, as they are SEEn to occur.
Often reported is the 'Oneness' thing, where the liberated tell of a sense of self in others and even trees etc. Ah, the great mystery. Makes life-ing a perpetual discovery. WonderFull.

love

vince

[ixturtle]

the realization that there is no benefit whatsoever with any identification to a story of how it might turn out.

dang, you always know where missing jigsaw puzzle piece is...

this one makes me excited and intimidated and whoa...

Until the discovery occurs, there is just THIS.

impulse to run around looking for it, which is more THIS, but also creates tension where there need be none.

thinking...is as much a part of THIS, as your breathing is.

yes, "this is it" has mostly been referencing the external, and in seeing this, internal world softens. but its no wonder sense of separation persists when thinking is excluded from whole.

[vinceschubert]

when thinking is excluded from whole.

It may help at this point to exclude it from its' position as apex predator, but it is part of the whole. As long as we can distinguish between thinking and its' contents, we have the skill to know what is of value and what is random shit.
It's belief in the content of thinking that evokes the ILLUSION of separation.
But we jump ahead here. It seems that for most, the sense of Oneness comes a little way down the track. At this stage, just focus on experiencing and SEE how this is the total Reality and that there is no actual I anywhere, except as content of thought, and that the SENSE of I is sensations that flow from this.

love

vince

[ixturtle]

Hi Vince

Traveling again but will try to stay connected here (setting the intention anyway; we'll see what unfolds.).

Interesting to watch reaction to bombing in boston yesterday-- noticing story in the mind, and also aware of all the other stories swirling around. Sadness arising in pockets triggered by thoughts. Heart moved watching people run into help. In one sense, the event is all story since experience comes filtered through media, though experiencing images, thoughts, feelingsr is still experience. What is clear is the distinction between thoughts about it and present experience here.

Noticing that despite this distinction, there is still attachment to physical "I" (and thus some fear) that feels tight in the body. "Who" am "I" protecting? Meat sack instict / conditioning is to protect itself. Some folks on this site speak of the fear of losing "self" but story here is more mundane fear of pain/ loss (not so much of death strangely). That fear hightens belief in the mind's need to be "in control."

I think the Dalai Lama said that everything that isn't love is fear. Love is just what is before mind jumps in with fear.

Off to board my flight!
Best,
Ix

[vinceschubert]

Sadness arising in pockets triggered by thoughts.

Yes, and that's ok. The appreciation that sadness is present, and not that R is owning the sadness.
Similar experiencing here, along with the Wonder at the myriad of consequences that may come from such an act. Also compassion for the perpetrator. What incredible pain must exist to take such an action. What story are they living out ? ...and how much of the world shares such stories. Then the idea (story) that this may be just what is needed to start the swing of the pendulum back up to a world of peace and love. Who knows ?

there is still attachment to physical "I"...but story here is more mundane fear of pain/ loss

What will replace the attachment (i might question what is attachment here) will be a trust that the organism is totally competent to take care of itself. No I required to do that. Do you think before you jump away from an oncoming car ? or remove your hand from a hot surface ?
(felt) Story here is that Love is Consciousness is Everything is IT, and fear is a temporary blindfold that alters the perception of IT. Love is the stuff of Existence (and nonExistence), the positive nature of the energy from which everything comes (even fear - which always has the (often misguided) intention to protect)
Ix, if you separate the SENSE of self from an actual self, is there any evidence or experience of the actual self ?

love

vince