Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

[Paulo]

Thanks Mark, that's fine. Respond when you feel ready.

Paulo :-)

[Tak]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity self at all. There was never such a thing.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully, from your current perspective.

From my own experience, the illusion of separate self seems to be a creation of the mind/ego.

When it starts? My experience with very young babies seems to indicate they have no illusion of separate self. But not having any experience of child-raising or child psychology, i have no direct experience with when the illusion takes hold. Academically, It would be interesting to see if the illusion of self develops spontaneously or is instilled culturally. (nature vs nurture). It all seems to point back to mind/ego .. why does the mind/ego exhibit such a strong need to 'feel' in control of the feelings and experiences that spontaneous arise around it? Thoughts constantly arising .. struggling to observe the present, narrating the past and imagine the future.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

On the one hand, there's a dull feeling of "thats it?" and a feeling of 'unfulfilled expectations'.

On the other hand, its freeing to realize that being "in the zone" is happening all the time, and the mind's activity seems to be getting in the way of that experience. Over the last few days I've sometimes recognized when im withdrawing from experience and having an internal experience of many thoughts / imaginings. The big difference from before this dialogue is the lack of expectations, i feel like could approach an experience w/o so many expectations. When expectations do intrude upon experience, it seems that 'suffering' arises. I had some expectations about my evening out at the movies/dinner the other night, and what would have otherwise been an evening filled with good feelings and experiences became speckled with bad feelings and thought traps.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

At some point i decided to actually "do" the exercises, instead of just imagining/projecting what the results would be. "This is what will happen if I think about a car", vs experiencing that exercise. The direct experience was unquestionably more impactful than the imagined experience, even if the end result (communication of the result) was similar.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

There are points in life illustrating that we have no control .. there's simply no way to control or understand all the pieces -- predict the weather, being accepted into a particular college, winning a game of random chance, etc.

On the very personal level, i couldn't find a decider in the "pick a salt or pepper" exercise.

Yet consider the future-imagining-thought during this weekend : "What do i want to do tonight -- go out for dinner/movie?", it seems to have had some effect on the shaping of my day. But applying the same "salt and pepper" exercise, what made a thought arise about "dinner/movie" instead of any other thought? I dont know. Theory: could it be that life unfolds as a series of complicated interactions between systems performing actions, actions arise from thought and that thought arises from ... ". Before this dialog, i would have said "self". Now that doesn't make sense anymore .. an illusionary entity can't drive real actions. Perhaps developing this model of life isnt the point tho (or it might even be a logical trap).

I think its sufficient to say that life happens and "my" thoughts/decisions are, rather than being a controller or decider, simply another part of the experiences of life.

6) Do you have anything else you wish to share?

Tons of thoughts arising, but they all sorta seem besides the point.

ok, ok, here's one: Honestly, this is kind of disruptive to the mental model ive been using. Sometimes it feels like a bit of a word game .. shifting the sense of control from "self" to "life". But it seems there's no need for the model ... there's still a sense that all the things that mattered before still matter, even without a sense of someone (me) in charge..

We've got a mind full of thoughts and a heart full of feelings and a body full of sensations and the opportunity to experience those things fully as interactions happen within the world and with others.

-Mark

[Paulo]

Thank you Mark,

Let’s take a look at the response to question two more closely –

From my own experience, the illusion of separate self seems to be a creation of the mind/ego.

It all seems to point back to mind/ego .. why does the mind/ego exhibit such a strong need to 'feel' in control of the feelings and experiences that spontaneous arise around it?

Is this mind/ego separate from experience?

Paulo.

[Paulo]

And for the bonus prize -

We've got a mind full of thoughts and a heart full of feelings and a body full of sensations and the opportunity to experience those things fully as interactions happen within the world and with others.

What does 'we' refer to here?

When you say 'others', what are they 'other' to?

Paulo :-)

[Tak]

Is this mind/ego separate from experience?

Well, unless we're getting tripped up in vocabulary, no, the mind/ego isn't separate from experience.

And for the bonus prize -
What does 'we' refer to here?
When you say 'others', what are they 'other' to?

heh, 'we' and 'others' are just residual vocabulary? If there's no "i" in the entity thought of as "me", then there's no reason there's an "I" in the "other" people either. Just, perhaps, the same illusion at play in a different experience. 'Other' is just another facet of the illusion of self.

Back on the word diet,
-Mark

[Paulo]

Thank you Mark, nice job.

At this point I will share this thread with other guides to see if they have any further questions for you. This process may take a little while, but I will keep you updated as we go.

Paulo.

[Tak]

Thank you Mark, nice job.
At this point I will share this thread with other guides to see if they have any further questions for you. This process may take a little while, but I will keep you updated as we go.

Cool, thanks and gratitude.
-Mark

[Paulo]

Thanks Mark, I have an additional question for you from one of our other guides -

Sometimes it feels like a bit of a word game .. shifting the sense of control from "self" to "life"

Look with your physical eyes and SEE is there anything at all “in charge” of life happening? Is there any controller, director, creator, etc.?

Remember to respond ONLY from your direct experience.

Paulo.

[Paulo]

Another question from a guide -

Do you 'think' you have seen through the illusion of self, or do you 'feel' you have seen?

Describe your feelings around having seen.

Paulo.

[Tak]

Sometimes it feels like a bit of a word game .. shifting the sense of control from "self" to "life"

Look with your physical eyes and SEE is there anything at all “in charge” of life happening? Is there any controller, director, creator, etc.?
Remember to respond ONLY from your direct experience.

no, using DE and physical eyes, there's certainly nothing to SEE being in charge of life. The is activity and experiences all around, just happening. Sounds, objects moving, feelings, etc. There is no direct experience of a controller, director or creator in charge.

Lol, even when i "see" my boss, there's no direct evidence that he's in charge. :)

-Mark

ps: other question a bit later..

[Tak]

Another question from a guide -
Do you 'think' you have seen through the illusion of self, or do you 'feel' you have seen?

Well, can i question the validity of the question itself?

On the face of it, No, I don't "feel" like i've had the 'clear bell', 'fireworks' or marching-band experience. Yet, as we discussed earlier, those feeling were nothing but expectations (aka imaginings). And imagining a feeling (even an imagining about this post-illusion topic), seem no more relevant or real than any other imagining I might have. So yes, there are feelings and thoughts, but they're just my experience of the experience of seeing-thru-self :)

which leads to...

Another question from a guide -
Describe your feelings around having seen.

In general, "im" feeling whatever arises from the experiences happening now.

which was what? ok, so I'll recall some past feelings and thoughts

a great many thoughts arise around teachings from the past that give rise to some uneasy feelings, some uncertainty feeling. There's also ennui (?) feelings .. i've followed this exercise and looked in any way suggested and any way I can think of .. there's just nothing there... That feeling subsides tho, and other arise .. feelings of joy and contentment .. 'there's nothing more to do (in the way i'd been 'doing' it), yay! i'm off the E-word hook. (what a distraction) i can just get on with the experiences of life.'

there are thoughts and imaginings about what might happen when i talk to other people about this, or wonderings about what happens next, or feelings of anticipation and thoughts on how this insight might interact with other beliefs, etc.

essay answer,
-Mark

[Paulo]

Thanks Mark, I've submitted your answers to the other guides, and will keep you posted on progress.

In the meantime, feel free to post any insights that come up or experiences you've had, that reflect your ongoing experience having seen through the illusion of 'I'. Remember, this is a living record of your journey, and it's nice to document, or express, what you're experiencing day to day.

Paulo :-)

[Paulo]

Thanks for all your responses Mark. You should be recieving a PM from one of our admins shortly.

Paulo :-)