Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

[Tak]

Beliefs, really? Why believe when you can just open your eyes and look. And so the question remains - Is there an entity called 'I' at the centre of this experience, watching it all happen?

hurm. No, there is not.

There are feeling arising. There are thoughts (imagination, plans, confusion, etc) arising. There are remembrances arising. There are sensations arising. There is a mind at work cataloging experiences, etc.

I see nothing I can point to as "me".

I asked you to think of a car and the image of a car pops into experience. I asked you to think of something happy, and a happy scene popped into imagination with it's corresponding feelings. You observed that both the car and the happy scene faded after some time.

Now, with the thought that there isn't an 'I' seperate from experience - feelings of frusration, etc. pop up. Do you see a pattern here? See if those feelings fade over time too, and share what you find if you wish - only don't use the word 'but' in your response.

• one pattern -- a topic is presented (car, happy, there-is-no-i) and real things happen -- thoughts arise, feeling arise, etc.
• another pattern -- a feeling persist in direct proportion to how long conscious dwells on it. The fond-memory originated happy-feeling fades as other experiences comes along and consciousness shifts elsewhere. The there-is-no-me uncomfortable-feeling fades as other experiences come along and consciousness shifts elsewhere.

Look at all the 'popping' that happens throughout the day - ..., what happens? ..., what happens? You watch...what happens? You see ... what happens? You feel... what happens?
Is there an 'I' seperate from this experience making it happen?

No, there's no "I" making any of that happen.

Some of that stuff seems like it needs (or should need) an originator to make it happen -- what made me aware of the clock? I don't understand what's originating that experience, but its simplifying(?) to not invent a fictitious (and confusing) "I" entity to be responsible for originating the experience.

Just LOOK - it's really very easy.

All sorts of feelings and thoughts and confusion arise when being told "it's really very easy". Ill take comfort in your experience having been easy and know that there is nothing so complicated that im not equipped to do it. But wow, do alot of value judgements and feeling and thoughts arise here. Im gonna treat all those arisings like any other and let them fade while i focus on this LOOK.

-mark

[Paulo]

I see nothing I can point to as "me".

Wow!

one pattern -- a topic is presented (car, happy, there-is-no-i) and real things happen -- thoughts arise, feeling arise, etc.
another pattern -- a feeling persist in direct proportion to how long conscious dwells on it. The fond-memory originated happy-feeling fades as other experiences comes along and consciousness shifts elsewhere. The there-is-no-me uncomfortable-feeling fades as other experiences come along and consciousness shifts elsewhere.

Wow wow!

No, there's no "I" making any of that happen.

Bow wow wow! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMICD3aMZpw

[Forgive my indulgence, just my sense of humour – you’re right on the money with what you have observed Mark – remember this process can be fun too!]

Just LOOK - it's really very easy.

All sorts of feelings and thoughts and confusion arise when being told "it's really very easy". Ill take comfort in your experience having been easy and know that there is nothing so complicated that im not equipped to do it. But wow, do alot of value judgements and feeling and thoughts arise here. Im gonna treat all those arisings like any other and let them fade while i focus on this LOOK.

Great, you’ve been given a stimulus, and thoughts and feelings arise – just watch that happen time and time and time again. You can see that most noticeably with ‘the car scene’ or ‘the happy scene’, but really it’s happening all the time, in every situation - just look.

Some of that stuff seems like it needs (or should need) an originator to make it happen -- what made me aware of the clock?

YOU tell me – go freestyle – look deep. One paragraph, the stage is yours – go for it!

[Tak]

Wow!
Wow wow!

No, there's no "I" making any of that happen.

Bow wow wow! - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMICD3aMZpw
[Forgive my indulgence, just my sense of humour – you’re right on the money with what you have observed Mark – remember this process can be fun too!]

lol

Some of that stuff seems like it needs (or should need) an originator to make it happen -- what made me aware of the clock?

YOU tell me – go freestyle – look deep. One paragraph, the stage is yours – go for it!

Nothing "made me" aware of the clock. "i" no more needed to have been originated/made-aware than any other actor/experience in that scene.

Seen one way, the whole thing felt choreographed. In order for the experience of "you look at the clock and see it's bedtime" to be experienced, a (huge) number of stimulus and reactions happened in just such a manner. The clock was doing it thing. Time of day was right. tiredness arose, etc, etc.

Seen other way, "what made me aware of the clock" was being 'aware of the clock' was 'my' role in that particular experience/moment .. a consequence of the complicated interplay of moving parts that "i" got to participate in.

life happened.

brain kinds spinning .. Im gonna stop feeding it. im tired of keeping the plates-on-stick spinning overhead. lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhoos1oY404

-Mark

ps:my paragraph got too big, so it's a buncha small sentences, oops

[Paulo]

brain kinds spinning .. Im gonna stop feeding it. im tired of keeping the plates-on-stick spinning overhead. lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhoos1oY404

I see you YouTube too, lol! What a wonderful analogy, the thoughts are only maintained when you feed them – very nice, I like it.

The clock was doing it thing. Time of day was right. tiredness arose, etc, etc.

Great, we’ve seen throughout our journey here that experience happens, life just flows along, doing its own thing in the moment – thoughts pop up, the body moves, feelings arise, and there is an awareness of all this.

Do these experiences belong to an entity called ‘I’ which exists separate from the experience, or do we just give experiences labels – mine, yours, the dogs?

Would the experience be any less, or any different without the label ‘I’ or ‘mine’ on them?

Getting warmer, Paulo :-)

[Tak]

Great, we’ve seen throughout our journey here that experience happens, life just flows along, doing its own thing in the moment – thoughts pop up, the body moves, feelings arise, and there is an awareness of all this.

Do these experiences belong to an entity called ‘I’ which exists separate from the experience, or do we just give experiences labels – mine, yours, the dogs?

our minds are labeling (and narrating) machines, its crazy and convenient (but there's a cost). So no, the experiences don't "belong to" any particular entity.

Would the experience be any less, or any different without the label ‘I’ or ‘mine’ on them?

no less, no different. After all, we already have many different labels (via our many human languages) for things (the sun, el sol, star), but they're still whatever thing they are.

-Labeled Mark

[Paulo]

Very nice Mark, some really great observations there.

Labeled Mark

What was there before the label ‘Mark’?

What about other people, what are they in direct experience?

Warmer .. Paulo :-)

[Tak]

Labeled Mark

What was there before the label ‘Mark’?

The question is a bit confusing, im answering it in terms of the 2nd question about DE, as you seem to have tied them together.

In direct experience, 'before the label Mark' was applied .. well, there was a baby. After the label was applied, there was still the baby. Labeling it/me didnt do a thing except ease communication for other people -- make it less confusing to talk about which baby was which. heh.

What about other people, what are they in direct experience?

If we're talking about labels -- a label applied to me, other people, or anything else doesn't change the direct experience of that which has been labeled.

From a DE perspective, other people are simply ... other bits of life expressing itself. They're not going to be any different than me, the dog, the wall, the tree, a remembrance, a happy feeling or the clock. All having some sort of experience, sometimes shared, sometimes not.

-Ruthless Word Diet Mark

[Paulo]

In direct experience, 'before the label Mark' was applied .. well, there was a baby. After the label was applied, there was still the baby. Labeling it/me didnt do a thing except ease communication for other people -- make it less confusing to talk about which baby was which. heh.

From a DE perspective, other people are simply ... other bits of life expressing itself. They're not going to be any different than me, the dog, the wall, the tree, a remembrance, a happy feeling or the clock. All having some sort of experience, sometimes shared, sometimes not.

Very nice indeed, now you’re really getting into the swing of things.


I wanted to share with you today a story of an amazing person I came across three weeks ago. His name was Mark too (imagine, what a coincidence!) and he had this to say about seeing through the illusion of self –

i'm expecting to fail at this process.

What would you say to this guy about the illusion of self from your current understanding?

-Ruthless Word Diet Mark

‘Ruthless word diet’, haha, sounds like a product from an infomercial – sign me up, I'll take 10!

Paulo :-)

[Tak]

I wanted to share with you today a story of an amazing person I came across three weeks ago. His name was Mark too (imagine, what a coincidence!) and he had this to say about seeing through the illusion of self –
i'm expecting to fail at this process.
What would you say to this guy about the illusion of self from your current understanding?

Lol. Ok.

Id say: toss the expectations and experience the exercises (rather than thinking about 'em). I'd say that statement showed expectations... perhaps some sort of clear-bell-ring or red-pill drama or something. (Tho even the reading here and elsewhere suggests not being able to "unsee" it)

On the one (cynical) side, without the "bell", or "oh sh*t", an expectation is arising about being unconvinced/unseen the next time i talk to or interact with a "SELF-er".

On the other hand, It currently feels alot like the Unicorn/Santa story .. its not impossible that a self might exist somewhere (maybe riding the unicorn or hanging out at the north pole) but I just dont see it using DE.

-Yee-haw, giddyap Mark

[Paulo]

On the one (cynical) side, without the "bell", or "oh sh*t", an expectation is arising about being unconvinced/unseen the next time i talk to or interact with a "SELF-er".

In the words of a wise man from the West – ‘toss the expectations and experience’.

its not impossible that a self might exist somewhere (maybe riding the unicorn or hanging out at the north pole) but I just dont see it using DE.

Is there anything you can find outside of the moment, outside of direct experience?

Paulo

[Tak]

its not impossible that a self might exist somewhere (maybe riding the unicorn or hanging out at the north pole) but I just dont see it using DE.

Is there anything you can find outside of the moment, outside of direct experience?

oh, a two-in-one question.

Nope, can't find anything outside the moment. even what i (used?) to thinkg of as the "past" is a current-moment remembrance; the future a current-moment imagining.

Outside of direct experience, all i get are stories (a current-moment communication triggering current-moment thoughts and feeling) of someone else's direct experience.

-Mark

[Paulo]

Very nice Mark,

From your responses of late I feel you may have had a shift in perspective around the idea of self. I wanted to pass the metaphorical microphone over to you at this point and see if you had any remaining doubts about the illusion of self, or if there was anything else you wished to share about your ongoing experience?

Paulo :-)

BTW: I had that 'clear bell', the fireworks, and the marching band on order for you, but it seems they got lost in transit!

[Tak]

BTW: I had that 'clear bell', the fireworks, and the marching band on order for you, but it seems they got lost in transit!

ah well, send them on for the next person. :)

and see if you had any remaining doubts about the illusion of self

after much reflection (quiet sitting / now-centering, as well as thought), i think im as convinced (is that what you are when u have no doubts?) as i am about anything else. im not feeling any further doubts that the self idea was just an an elaborate construct of the mind.

or if there was anything else you wished to share about your ongoing experience?

There's tons of thoughts and feeling arising, and my brain has tons of questions. i dunno what this missing illusion of self means for me in daily life, but that somehow seems like a thought rat-hole. There were so many expectations, so many feeling. But i find myself willing to let them all arise and fade back. Or is that lazy? maybe i should be fiercely examining this stuff. Bah, more expectations. Perhaps ill save all the "so what does this mean" stuff for another discussion.

The process so far seems like a slow and inevitable progression, each step being small, a logical progression from what came before, and therefor obvious. ive enjoyed your guidance and appreciate your patience.

-Mark

[Paulo]

ive enjoyed your guidance and appreciate your patience.

Mark, it’s been an absolute pleasure to guide you, and I really admire your engagement and commitment to the process.

There were so many expectations, so many feeling. But i find myself willing to let them all arise and fade back. Or is that lazy? maybe i should be fiercely examining this stuff. Bah, more expectations.

Perhaps take a quick read of this article by Ilona on handling expectations - http://markedeternal.blogspot.ie/2013/0 ... tions.html


I feel it's time for the final questions. This is not a quiz, or a test, rather a set of tools which will help you root out any remaining doubts, and to deepen your experience.

Answer in your own time and your own way – perhaps one a day, or all together if you feel so inspired.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully, from your current perspective.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Do you have anything else you wish to share?

Paulo :-)

[Tak]

just wanted to let you know that I havent vanished, but im planning to answer this over the weekend. :)

-Mark