Looking for a guide

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

So "looking at awareness" is just a thought that arises and passes IN awareness, it is not literally true... yes?

Yes.

Can you investigate the thought or feeling 'I am awareness' some more .... does this also arise and pass in awareness? Is this thought/feeling ALWAYS present where there is awareness, or is there ever awareness before or after this thought/feeling? Where this thought/feeling is absent, is there COMPLETE absence of consciousness / existence?

Yes that thought can arise and pass and it is possible to be aware without thinking that I am awareness.

At any given time I experience either in the present moment or some thought about the past or the future or the thought that i am awareness.

Regards,
Henrik

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

Very good!

We've come a long way...

So, to come a full circle to the beginning of the investigation, what now comes up when you read:

There is no ‘self’, no ‘me’, no ‘I’, and there never has been. The sense of ‘self’ has always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’.

x
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

So, to come a full circle to the beginning of the investigation, what now comes up when you read:

There is no ‘self’, no ‘me’, no ‘I’, and there never has been. The sense of ‘self’ has always arisen in the complete absence of any truly existing ‘I’.

What comes up is the thought "no...it can't be true".

Also got this strange thought that "ok yes i can see that that what we call "I" doesn't really exist", but that "I" is not me. The label that "I" point to is not me, but an idea about me. It must be possible to be aware without having the thought of I, and that pure awareness must be my true self, my pure awareness without thought and without any sensation of individuality.

Regards
Henrik

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

Lots of thoughts coming up!

Do you believe them, or are they just thoughts passing by?

What is the difference between a thought 'just passing by', and one that you believe?

What comes up is the thought "no...it can't be true"

It would be good to examine the direct experience here - I'm guessing that this is not a purely logical thought arising without emotion ... is there a spark of emotion there too? Is there a momentary image or sensation of what it would mean if it were true? Is there a sense of rejection - "I won't have it!" ? What is there in addition to the words in the thought?

"ok yes i can see that that what we call "I" doesn't really exist"

Well that is good!

I'd be interested to hear what you have learned about this illusion of "I", eg whether you used to believe that it existed, what the effect is of 'believing' it exists, whether anything changed after seeing through the illusion .... anything else you could say to elaborate?

It must be possible to be aware without having the thought of I

I'd agree, but is this sounds like speculation - this is not difficult to experience.... In the last few days we've been looking at the arising and passing of the thought 'I am awareness' ... what happens if you sit noticing the arising and passing of any the thought of 'I'? Are there gaps in which the thought is absent? This is not rare, exotic or mystical, but really quite common and ordinary!

that pure awareness must be my true self, my pure awareness without thought and without any sensation of individuality.

This is becoming a bit removed from direct experience but anyway: even if we accept that there really is "pure awareness without thought and without any sensation of individuality", the question is: how can it be 'my' pure awareness? What is the 'me' to which it belongs?

Surely this pure awareness simply IS, unowned, owning nothing?

In which case, is 'me' anything other than another thought?

I hope I've not given you too much to chew on!

best wishes,
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

Lots of thoughts coming up!

Do you believe them, or are they just thoughts passing by?

They are just thoughts.

What is the difference between a thought 'just passing by', and one that you believe?

Well if i can see that it is just a thought, then i don't have to believe it. Usually when you believe something is true you don't even see the thought.

It would be good to examine the direct experience here - I'm guessing that this is not a purely logical thought arising without emotion ... is there a spark of emotion there too? Is there a momentary image or sensation of what it would mean if it were true? Is there a sense of rejection - "I won't have it!" ? What is there in addition to the words in the thought?

Yes there was definitely emotion attached to the thought. Feeling of anger, disappointment. Feeling of the ego fighting to survive. Yes the sense of rejection is there. The Ego can't accept it to be true that it doesn't exist.

I'd be interested to hear what you have learned about this illusion of "I", eg whether you used to believe that it existed, what the effect is of 'believing' it exists, whether anything changed after seeing through the illusion .... anything else you could say to elaborate?

Yes i used to believe in the identify of and I and i can see now that what we call "I" is actually made up. What has changed is the feeling that my ego has becomes smaller. Less interest in doing things that feeds the ego. It has become easier to laugh at my own ego. However there is still this sense that there is an experiencer, which is basically what is called "me" minus all my thoughts, including the thought of "I". Pure awareness. There is a bigger sense of feeling that this awareness is more universal and less individual. My ego is disappointed to find out that it is an illusion.

In the last few days we've been looking at the arising and passing of the thought 'I am awareness' ... what happens if you sit noticing the arising and passing of any the thought of 'I'? Are there gaps in which the thought is absent? This is not rare, exotic or mystical, but really quite common and ordinary!

Yes there is gaps. I these gaps everything seems to happens by itself.

This is becoming a bit removed from direct experience but anyway: even if we accept that there really is "pure awareness without thought and without any sensation of individuality", the question is: how can it be 'my' pure awareness? What is the 'me' to which it belongs?

I think we are touching a key issue here. The ego is disappointed to find out that the awareness doesn't belong to him. That there can be awareness without any owner.

In which case, is 'me' anything other than another thought?

Yes it is just a thought, but it doesn't change the fact that if there is painful thoughts/feelings in what we call "my" body/mind then there is still unhappiness weather you call that body "mine" or not. And that unhappiness is experienced only by the awareness that is linked to that body/mind.

Regards,
Henrik

[laulund]

Hi again,

Was just reminded of patanjali yoga sutras chapter 2, sutra 6:

"Egoism, the limiting sense of "I" results from the individual intellect's attributing the power of consciousness to itself."

Regards
Henrik

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

Well if i can see that it is just a thought, then i don't have to believe it. Usually when you believe something is true you don't even see the thought.

Yes, exactly!

Feeling of the ego fighting to survive. Yes the sense of rejection is there. The Ego can't accept it to be true that it doesn't exist. [...] My ego is disappointed to find out that it is an illusion.

:-)

Great observation

What is ego? Can you tease out what in 'ego' really exists (feelings, sensations, observed thoughts) and what does not (ideas mistakenly believed, illusions, stories)?

The ego is disappointed to find out that the awareness doesn't belong to him. That there can be awareness without any owner. [...] "Egoism, the limiting sense of "I" results from the individual intellect's attributing the power of consciousness to itself."

Yes, excellent!

I'm really happy 'you' have seen this, does this feel significant?

if there is painful thoughts/feelings in what we call "my" body/mind then there is still unhappiness weather you call that body "mine" or not.

Yes, sensations do not vanish, experience is not extinguished ... in a sense, nothing changes when 'self' is seen as an illusion .... and yet, to drop this fiction of "I", no longer to have to believe stories about "I" ... is this not liberating?

x
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

What is ego? Can you tease out what in 'ego' really exists (feelings, sensations, observed thoughts) and what does not (ideas mistakenly believed, illusions, stories)?

I see the ego as the sum of all my thoughts, feelings, memories, ideas about "I" etc. However the awareness is not part of the ego.

I'm really happy 'you' have seen this, does this feel significant?

Yes and no. The significance is very subtle, but maybe i am underestimating it. All the samkaras / (tension in body and mind) does not dissapear because of this. Maybe they will long term?

Yes, sensations do not vanish, experience is not extinguished ... in a sense, nothing changes when 'self' is seen as an illusion .... and yet, to drop this fiction of "I", no longer to have to believe stories about "I" ... is this not liberating?

Yes there is a feeling of lightness,,,but where is the seeing and where is the feeling of liberation taking place? Would you say it takes place in the mind or in the awareness? Isn't it just another though created in the mind which is being witnessed by the awareness?

I have this feeling that you and I and all the other people in life is basically the same thing. I mean at our inner core, we are the same thing. Interacting with you and others is not much different from my mind internal dialog...its all thoughts, actions etc, happening by it self, interacting with it self.

Regards,
Henrik


Regards
Henrik

[perrym]

Sorry computer problems... Will write tomorrow!

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

Computer working again - I didn't fancy writing on my phone yesterday!

The significance is very subtle, but maybe i am underestimating it. All the samkaras / (tension in body and mind) does not dissapear because of this. Maybe they will long term?

Samskaras do not disappear at once - they are habits, they have inertia / momentum. I liken it to a runaway train ... seeing through the illusion of self is like disabling the engine, but the train will keep moving for quite some time.

The question is - even though samskaras arise, is it obvious that there is no 'self' making them happen?

When one has passed by, does it seem faintly ridiculous? (As you say, "It has become easier to laugh at my own ego.")

Could you ever get caught up again in believing in "I" as a real entity, and create new samskaras on that basis? Can you ever again fully believe the old stories involving "I"?

Yes there is a feeling of lightness,,,but where is the seeing and where is the feeling of liberation taking place? Would you say it takes place in the mind or in the awareness? Isn't it just another though created in the mind which is being witnessed by the awareness?

Check it out for yourself - if the answer cannot be found in direct experience, then perhaps is it just speculative thought without any final answer?

Why is the question important? Seeing is just seeing, a feeling of liberation is just a feeling, the thought "I am liberated from the belief in self" is just a thought... how could it be otherwise?

The 'liberation' that Liberation Unleashed is concerned with is not a realm to dwell in or an absolute to attain, but simply the recognition that "I", once naively believed in as a real and separate entity, is just the content of thought, no more real than Santa Claus.

Before liberation there is just sensing, feeling and thinking and willing in awareness ... after liberation there is just sensing, feeling and thinking and willing in awareness - so what changes?

I have this feeling that you and I and all the other people in life is basically the same thing. I mean at our inner core, we are the same thing. Interacting with you and others is not much different from my mind internal dialog...its all thoughts, actions etc, happening by it self, interacting with it self.

:-)

Beautifully put. No real separation between 'my self' and 'your self'...

x
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry

The question is - even though samskaras arise, is it obvious that there is no 'self' making them happen?

Well the samskaras is made happening by something, but I can find no proof that they are created my me as a seperate entity.

Could you ever get caught up again in believing in "I" as a real entity, and create new samskaras on that basis? Can you ever again fully believe the old stories involving "I"?

No

Check it out for yourself - if the answer cannot be found in direct experience, then perhaps is it just speculative thought without any final answer?

Why is the question important? Seeing is just seeing, a feeling of liberation is just a feeling, the thought "I am liberated from the belief in self" is just a thought... how could it be otherwise?

Yes it is just a thought.

Before liberation there is just sensing, feeling and thinking and willing in awareness ... after liberation there is just sensing, feeling and thinking and willing in awareness - so what changes?

There is an change in attitude. To let things happening in the way that they must do instead of trying to change it or get stressed out about it. It doesn't mean a stop to action or stop to spiritual practice. It just mean less effort in the action and practice. Less of a need to chase things. Instead you can relax and watch and act on the opportunities as they are presented to you.

Regards
Henrik

[laulund]

or i should refrase it:

"Instead you can relax and watch 'yourself' act on the opportunities as they are presented to you."

Regards
Henrik

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

I was feeling rather ill last night, so apologies for failing to reply

There is an change in attitude. To let things happening in the way that they must do instead of trying to change it or get stressed out about it.

I'm glad, that sounds like an improvement :-)

I'd like to get some other guides to take a look and see if they come up with any additional suggestions.

We have a standard set of questions that are useful to get a rounded picture of where you're at - would you be able to go through them in your own time? Answering them all fully is quite a job, so it may be easier to answer one or two at a time rather than plough into the whole lot in one go.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

x
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry

Let me try to answer the questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No and never was. There is universal consciousness. Some people call this called it spirit.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The idea about a separate "self" and "I","Me" is really just a thought created by the universal consciousness which arise in the mind/intellect. The sense of I comes from the the individual mind thinking that the awareness and thought is created by it self. It starts when consciousness gets a new physical body with sense organs and experiences are perceived thought the senses in that body. The concept of the existence of a soul that is reincarnated again and again is really just consciousness that changes its outermost layer, the physical body while the mind/intellect remain in place.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like the piece of the puzzle has fallen in place. As I described earlier, the difference is a change in attitude where one can relax and watch things happening effortlessly instead of trying to make things happens. I had an experience a couple of days ago where a person got mad at me and lost it completely on me. I was watching his reaction, but wasn't really affected by it. As i watch him expressing his anger I couldn't help laughing at it inside as I couldn't believe he could take life so serious. It was like watching a funny movie with a character playing his role.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I think the main thing that pushed me over was the seeing the difference between and separate entity that decide, intend, choose, control events in Life and the possibility that these things actually happens by itself in the same way and thoughts and breathing happens by itself, and it is after the thing has happened that the mind think that it was done by itself while the fact is that it wasn't. The rest was just clarification, checking, understanding and accepting that that is how it is, how could it ever be otherwise.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

No there is no decided, chooser or controller. Everything happens by it self in the same way as thoughts arise by it self and a dream is playing out by itself. Is all a cosmic show playing out. Sit back, relax and enjoy the fantastic show, the life energy in play.

6) Anything to add?

Not really.

Regards
Henrik

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

Thanks for your answers!

There is universal consciousness.

What does the term 'universal consciousness' point to? Is this an aspect of direct experience?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Are you able to describe this more in terms of direct experience? I realise the 'when it starts' is question is hard to answer entirely from experience (unless you have a particularly good memory) but can you say anything about how the illusion was working in recent experience? What is it like to be taken in by the illusion? How did the illusion persist, what patterns/mechanisms kept the illusion alive?

x
Perry