into unnamed :)

[Conti]

OK - I found you on FB :)

[otterrivers]

[THE FOLLOWING IS OUR FACEBOOK CHAT RECORD]

CONTI
I feel at the gate as my experience has changed... there are no expectations or presumptions but it all has begun to happen in present moment

what about my "I/self"?
I feel two opposite things: I think etc. and then some unlimited consciousness takes me and there's no "i"

Otter Rivers
ok. let's explore thoughts. what is a tought?

CONTI
it's a difficult question - I would call it a movement in awareness, movement towards something...

Otter Rivers
moving in what?
and please also ask yourself "what is moving from where to where?"

CONTI
I can't describe awareness or mind. it appears and disapears into emptiness

Otter Rivers
i'm not looking for a correct answer so much as i am trying to help cause you to inquire in a way where the gate can be found

CONTI
ok

Otter Rivers
you're doing fine.
you say mind. and appears and disappears into emptiness. ok good.
we'll explore thought with some dE (direct experience) exercises now.

CONTI
I had a nice dream today

Otter Rivers
if you think "chair", that is just a thought. you can look around and find an object in the room that matches this description. a thing you sit on.

CONTI
I was at the top of a hill and there was a story of some disposing of somebody who didn't suffer because of that as he knew it was all fake... ok
yeah!
I got my tea on a chair

Otter Rivers
same with other thoughts like ceiling, floor, door... even with some intangible things like anger, curiosity, excitement. these thoughts match up to something that can be directly sensed
Now, do this same exercise with the thought "I" or "Myself" ...can you find the inner entity which matches that description?
What reality is there in a thought? if you put 100,000,000 thoughts in a box, will they all fit? you see thoughts just point awareness. some thoughts only point to other thoughts.

CONTI
various perceptions may be observed but ... what about "I" - from broader perspective I see thoughts or more precisely - way of thinking forming a "small perspective"
which is taken for I

Otter Rivers
tell me how does this illusion of self start?

CONTI
the way of thinking is coded by the language, the sensations from the body, the separation is made and all around proves it to be right...

Otter Rivers
when does this begin?

CONTI
from parents and upbringing...

Otter Rivers
what is it that learns to identify with being separate?

CONTI
it's perceptions of body, feelings and thoughts... and the inaccessibility of perception of feelings, thoughts of other beings...
but even if they are accessible the interpretation based on thought form tells that it's not "mine"

Otter Rivers
what is it that becomes identified with the body, separation from "others"? What identifies with thoughts like "mine" "me" "myself"

CONTI
I don't know - it cannot be grasped...

Otter Rivers
ok. thank you for the direct honest answer from experience!

CONTI
mind processes are started but stop being fooled into nwhere
nowhere

Otter Rivers
in other words, there is awareness. this can be sensed. we can also call it "mind" which has different meanings to different people depending on how it is used.

CONTI
yes - I like Buddhist understanding - as it is completely different from intellect

Otter Rivers
we can find awareness but not "my awareness" and we already discussed the non-separation between 'awareness' and 'awareness of'
ok we can leave Buddhism behind for now. let's just look.
nothing wrong with Buddhism but that won't help right now.
(and i realize the irony that what i just said sounds very Buddhist. haha)

CONTI
ok - I also prefer direct way apart from flamboyant descriptions
it sound aldo very dzogczen like

Otter Rivers
what becomes liberated? liberation from what?

CONTI
that's just he best part mind/ awareness is liberated from it's way of thinking and interpreting... the mistake of perception is removed...

Otter Rivers
so consciousness that is aware of "me" as well as other thoughts (some of which have anchors in reality, and others not) identifies with it's apparent seperate-ness and that is the trap/illusion?

CONTI
it's unimaginable... it's just a beginning of looking backwards, but I get immense flashes of happiness
yes - the misled interpretation...

Otter Rivers
are you liberated? if not, what prevents it?

CONTI
actually I have not fully recognized what I really am, I only see what I am not...
what prevents me ... that's a good question

Otter Rivers
yes. i didn't ask you to describe what you are. that's not our job here. it's just like u said. you only see what you are not.

i think i remember you saying something like :that if you were liberated, you wouldn't have any more problems. do i remember correctly?

CONTI
I found something as obstacle - I'm a conformist - so among people which expect ego-thinking from my side I produce proper way of thinking and the longer I do it it is a habit which becomes slowly a belief

Otter Rivers
does the character you just described have any reality?

CONTI
oh yes - you've noticed my expectations...

Otter Rivers
expectations are fine. they happen. if not believed, they are harmless.
let's look at expectations:

CONTI
no - it doesn't and it's tiring to keep it... but it's useful to be in dialogue with others...
expectations are somewhat ... big, but it's all because of flashes of nondual experiences...

Otter Rivers
when the story of "what happened" (including "how it SHOULDVE happened") and the story of what will probably happen in the future are seen as just thoughts happening now (stories the mind tells it's self) ... what is left?

CONTI
I must say since we've started it all goes better without any ego-support
yes, thank you - what is is the pure awareness... I give up any control over what might be...
good pointing!

Otter Rivers
what gives up the control?
follow the question to the gate.

CONTI
the dreams and hopes of the way the awareness expresses itself...

Otter Rivers
dreams and hopes can give up control?

CONTI
the thinking that something could be more liberated than that
what?

Otter Rivers
you keep walking right past it. you're following the pointing though. good.

CONTI
that it's too little..
that the total clarity and boundless awareness is possible

Otter Rivers
<""OTTER-what gives up the control?
ANETA- the dreams and hopes of the way the awareness expresses itself..."">
So i ask is it true that dreams and hopes had any control? they can give up control? dreamd, hopes, thoughts, have sentience?

CONTI
no... of course

Otter Rivers
(dreams, not dreamd lol)
i'm not being overly strict, i just have to ask this. to clarify.

CONTI
sure good! it works in me!

Otter Rivers
when you say "i give up my control'' that is pretty great but we must clarify what is really meant since we can't take that literally, as we just discussed there is no "i" really.

CONTI
something - I feel that "it" - aspect of awareness - an emotion from the past but vivid motive
dissolved as any other thoughts

Otter Rivers
so what is left when the story of 'past and future' and 'should' are gone? tell me from experience. report.

CONTI
now is...

Otter Rivers
(i don't mean the stories are gone but not believed or seen as significant)
yes now is.

CONTI
I feel a relief

Otter Rivers
yes... and what is liberation?

CONTI
now I can tell that's a relief after expectations and conditions and any other bothering mind stuff

Otter Rivers
yes. what a relief that the character in the future worry-story i am seeing is not real at all, and the character in the story of what happened to me before also has no real connection to THIS NOW
What about the "down side" of it? all the good things you thought you were? all the roles you might want to keep? what about the great romances or prides/achievements?

CONTI
oh damnit!

Otter Rivers
mmmm hmmm

CONTI
stupid feeling...

Otter Rivers
did they go anywhere? do they have existence other than a thought which arises now?
what about "hopes and dreams in the future that will make me happy"?

CONTI
they never existed only as thoughts
oh... what a pity that I won't be more "liberated" LOL - that some new quality won't come... this is it - what is

Otter Rivers
ok. let's practice then. Thought: L.U. tells me i have seen through illusion of self and the story of "my life" and yet i still do this or that bad behavior/ negative thought/ stress / doubt. if i had really seen i wouldn't do this anymore. i mustve done it wrong or lost it
new quality may come or not. do you see how this is already trying to live as 'me' in a projected future/thought? " I won't be more "liberated" LOL - that some new quality won't come"
it's only habit. nothing has gone wrong.

CONTI
hehehe that's what was also an obstacle... I am sure of that because many opposite emotions just have run through me leaving me more "naked"

Otter Rivers
these thoughts. when seen as thoughts happening now, are no longer an obstacle.

CONTI
yes!

Otter Rivers
you are FREE!
right? where is this character that struggled and will probably struggle more to become better?

CONTI
it's an image in head - as I see it harmless

Otter Rivers
life goes on. distraction, identification/conditioning, remembering, seeing, forgetting.... prove to me this stops when liberation from illusion happens!
haha
right. imaginary. imagination is real, but is everything imagination tells us real?

CONTI
no - it's imagination...

Otter Rivers
ok i am going to go back to the forum and paste this, then i will post our "final exam" questions right after i paste this and edit out your real name and all the spaces. so give me at least 10minutes.

CONTI
just imagination - ability to see mind forms
I must go to sleep... I must get up in the morning tomorrow...
Thank you for pointing out!

Otter Rivers
OK goodnight.

CONTI
Bye bye!

[otterrivers]

Here are our final questions. sorry, I know you answered some of these already but please patiently answer again from current looking, not from memory. Other guides will then review your answers with me. If there are any issues with any of the answers, we will present other questions to clarify and work through it. If 3 or more guides confirm, you will be updated to "blue" on this forum(you are currently green. blue is one who is confirmed as having Seen. red is one who has guided another to seeing) and you may also choose to be added to our facebook aftercare groups.
(Note: when the questions ask about "Liberation" or "Awakening", we mean this relief from belief in a self./seeing that self is a fictional story.)

Here you go:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?




2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.




3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.




4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.




5) When you say "I", what are you referring to?




6) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?




7) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?




8 ) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?




9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

10) After this seeing tat there is no self, how are "other people" seen now?

11) Do you have anything to add about your experience of the self as illusion?User avatar

[otterrivers]

[ignore the "user avatar" at the very end there. just something I forgot to erase when I copied and pasted the questions.]

[Conti]

The process brings me much joy all the time... That's the funny contrast, as the main problem of "myself" was that my "I" was very serious and carried sadness in it. :) That is funny too.
Just being is a very joyous experience for the moment ;). Not having to engage into keeping the inner ego image alive gives much fresh air and spontaneity, no border lines, no tracks, just being, experiencing what appears to be experienced.

I will answer the questions by parts, starting from tomorrow, as it's too late today. I'll be happy to do it, just for doing so... :).

[otterrivers]

did you ever have an "I"? what had it? ... conti... ...lol yes answer the questions in your own time. don't take too long, I am curious! :)

[otterrivers]

i'm not absolutely sure yet, but I may not have time to respond tomorrow night. just wanted to be sure you knew. so maybe you get 1 more day. ;)

[Conti]

Oh, on Tuesday (after some break) I came back to work and it's difficult to get used again to getting up very early. Yesterday I fell (a very good word) asleep just after evening meal in my daily clothes...! Good thing is that as a result I am quite fresh today :).

Let's start and check what comes:

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?




I can't find any "me" - if I ask or check I find only empty space of boundless shapeless unlimited awareness. As I can see it - "myself" is a conception, an image in memory, but it's not as harmless as any abstract conception, but keeping it and clinging to it makes an important difference. With "I" perspective you see only your interpretation of what is instead of really being alive, the identification filters do their work and make you a crazy lunatic following some imaginary ideas (and people may even kill each other because of that!).
So there is no "self" and never was. What a relief to find that! How many efforts and tensions may be relieved. Nothing to protect. Yet the idea of "my influence on experience" is still attractive. The moment I see it as it appears just like any other mind process it goes off with thoughts.

As to separation: on the level of awareness there's no separation. The minds use the same "space" of awareness, it's possible to align with other minds or just let it be with whatever comes.
I've also discovered a kind of focus ability which allows the basic non-dual awareness to be adjusted to reflect the various possible states of mind and experiences - it's hard to say "I discovered" - it happened to be experienced while I was looking into mind. That was also liberating...
The ego seems to be an image - a caricature based on and retained by the way of thinking (just like kids drawing some figures on empty space of paper to say that this is me and my mum).

Please tell me if I write to much and not strictly on the subject. I'll try to be more concise.

[Conti]

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

The illusion is based on taking the imaginary vision of some character/ profile for actualy living separate entity and identifying with that picture. Actually it is only a misinterpretation. It starts in the process of upbringing, when parents teach us to name something as me and mine. I have a very early memory - a flash of me going thru some meadow in a diaper (it distorted my way of walking) - I remember my state of mind and there was nothing like self, just a pure awareness without any life story or any identification. Somewhere later it must have been introduced.
How it works: everything what happens is referred to that self image, as if it were the center of experience. In this way the experience is distorted by the way "I" feels or thinks about it. I may go up or down and great efforts are taken to make "i" go up :). The same efforts are taken to avoid "I" going down :) which means unhappiness.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

It's a great relief to get rid of the imaginary burden and this make place for everything that appears. This openess directs the attention to now - the present experience, which is more profound. Actually it makes life easier without much complications resulting from what might be or could have been or shouldn't be...
Speaking directly from experience I would only say: it feels good. Everything's on its way as it goes. No need to interfere, just to be a part of it :).

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.

Oh - that's difficult. I would try refer to some experiences of non-self nature like contemplation, feeling one with nature or the emotions or ideas shared by groups of people, when the feeling of separation is lost... Finding such experience at somebody would make a ground for discussion. I would direct the person to the present moment where there's no "I" and dismantle the mental I construction from experiencing.

5) When you say "I", what are you referring to?




I would say an image, a character defined and retained in the memory.

[Conti]

6) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?




There is only experience and everything else like imaginary experiencer is only a part of that experience. The awareness experiences and everythimg may be reflected in it.

7) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

The body makes a part of the experience, together with thoughts and emotions and everything else that appears in and disappears from the flow of experience.

[otterrivers]

good so far. I understand being busy. just be this presence that is. rising to meet each challenge as a new miracle to explore. there is no need to go live at an ashram or temple, you can live this at work even when things are crazy and chaotic. just wanted to say that. you probably already feel this. looking forward to the rest of your answers.

[Conti]

Finally Saturday :). Before further answers I must tell you that I've entered into some kind of transition process or so... When I'm tired and there's little time for looking into mind (which is always very refreshing), I get into automatic thinking, although it's inconsistent, but all seems obscured then... I know inside that there's no self, but the recognition becomes obscured and it's liberating aspect is mostly blocked. Thankfully we've dismantled together on chat my expectation regarding what liberation should look like :) and I stopped distancing myself from everyday awareness and creating something which is "beyond" and may evaluate if it fits expectations or not. Now it sounds totally crazy...! Your pointing out was very helpful! Thanks!

8 ) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

Actually there were a number of small awakenings or recognitions leading me to the point. Past awaking experiences (is it useful to describe them?) gave me the confidence that the track is good, that it's what really is and it's not a subjective perception influenced by some teachings. Then I read some stories of Gatecrushers, and immediately afterwards a speech of Bodhidharma found on one of blogs of liberated users. Tickling in my body and various sensations made that I couldn't intellectually focus on the text but surely reading enhanced the inner instability. Then something was loosened and I found myself being only a pure awareness, not limited not separated, body being a part of experience, "my life" as a concept, material forms - all of dreamlike nature - being the ability of awareness to form out of itself, no I no self. It lasted only for a few minutes as my emotions of agitation mixed with fear blew me up... The experience was gone but my identification under question and I was ready to follow the process.
Then looking into mind I could see what I is and how it works. With your help Otter I stopped looking for something beyond and the attention was settled into now. Upon that recognition I experienced a mixture of emotions, recollections of past thoughts moments beliefs (even from childhood when I aspired for something else being dissatisfied with what is) - as if they were all released leaving me in "I don't know" position.




9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

At the beginning it was all very funny to me: what I thought about myself, that I was so serious about me. The energy engaged in keeping "I" image was released. I stopped worrying. I feel no opposing to life, to what's happening so I became more active :) and it is effortless, it happens by itself.
The process is ongoing.

10) After this seeing tat there is no self, how are "other people" seen now?

Also awareness, often concentrated on their life story. The contact is better and more direct. I wouldn't dare to say that I see others in non-dual way, for now only awareness being in contact with awareness, not different, formless, not separated, but not "one", yet not different, as one, but not directly one - I don't know, maybe some further investigation is needed...

11) Do you have anything to add about your experience of the self as illusion?

It's an important point, but not final. :)

[otterrivers]

beautiful! thank you! I will now post a link to this on our guiding group so other guides can check out our conversation and either confirm or give me more questions to ask you. it might take a day or 2 or it might happen right away. who knows. haha.

going by what you wrote, i'd say you're doing great! many people seem to have trouble after this process because it isn't the final "enlightenment" which they expect to be final and unwavering. life just flows and attention goes where it will. if there's no you, then you aren't running the show. just watch and enjoy. the experience of feeling like a "me" continues. we aren't trying to escape that. just shifting perspective to seeing illusion as illusion. after walking through the gate you see there was no gate really. just life flowing. that's why we call it the gateless gate ;). i'll get back to you soon.

[Conti]

Actually it's not very easy - once it all goes with clarity and the awareness is sharp, afterwards it's all obscured. The recognition, that it is the same awareness and it has not changed - helps. Yesterday the clarity occurred to me and I felt "transparent" as if everything was unlimited space, but today all is back to narrow "normal". It doesn't change anything in what really is, just there's more flexibility than before.
I've noticed also that I have a habit of wishful thinking, so to enforce some states of mind. That's the last fortress of my "ego-mind" - the mind control. The solution is very simple - just to look at it as at any other thought, without fighting, without following... It dissolves giving place to acceptation and some kind of trust. I see it now clearly - the emotions involved in it. It must be a very old thought... Good I mentioned that.
The process goes on by itself.

[otterrivers]

right. beautiful/perfect aneta. just this regular awareness here. what is it? you can ask that like dropping a coin in a well and never hearing a splash. completely normal... absolutely amazing... nothing special. ...how perfect. how amazing! special states come and go right? so that can't be what you are. no need to reach a conclusion... just keep fallliiiiiiing..... :)