Looking For Guide: Third Time's a Charm?

[Paulo]

I see a picture of baby sitting on the floor playing with some pots and pans.

Now THAT was focused!!!

Let us begin -

Think of a car.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of the above in as much detail as you can.

How did the thought arrive? Was there a seperate entity there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?

How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?

[Carry out your excercise to center in the moment before carrying out that task. Keep answers brief and focused (not just in your response, but also in the task) - look at what IS, and BOOM - write it down]


Impressed!, Paulo :-)

[Tak]

Think of a car.

Share your experience of what happens when you think of the above in as much detail as you can.

a scene immediately springs to mind, into which i place a car. The scene pops into mind and seems quite simple at first -- a car sitting on a road -- but seems richly detailed and if I turn my attention to various areas of the scene .. i am able to describe (or imagine them) in as much detail as I care to observe. eg: car has 4 doors, sedan, etc.

How did the thought arrive? Was there a seperate entity there choosing the particular car that appeared in thought, it's colour, size, etc?

Im not really sure how the thought arrived. I read the words on this page, which asked me to think of a car and the scene appeared in my mind. I don't feel like there was a separate entity there to choose the type of car, color, etc. the job/miracle of the mind is it's creativity and association.

How did that particular car appear from all the possible cars that could have appeared?

I don't rightly know. A suggestion/topic was made and the mind responded to fill in the rest of the experience .. i made up a response to match the suggestion.

going off my word diet as I muse on how the mind might have done that: i don't feel as if i selected which car to think about (eg, i did not flip thru a mental catalog and pick one to think about). im not knowledgeable about cars, so it was not a specific make or model, i would not be surprised if it was an amalgamation of all sorts of impressions of "Car-ness" that my mind enjoys, or rememberences of past cars combined with expectations/desires of enjoying a scene or car once more.

-Mark

[Paulo]

a scene immediately springs to mind, into which i place a car

Is there an 'I' there separate from the experience placing a car into awareness?

going off my word diet as I muse on how the mind might have done that ...

Please don't Mark, you'll be completely wasting our time here. This is thinking 'about' reality, it's after the fact, and keeps you at a distance from reality - I thought that was clear.

What an incredible opportunity you have here to look and see what a truly amazing world we live in. But maybe it all comes too easy - delivered to you PC everyday. Be mindful that life is finite, and every day is one day less, every breath is one breath less.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzXkYGeYFOo

Ultimately, this is YOUR inquiry and I can only guide you while you walk that journey.

With love, Paulo.

[Tak]

a scene immediately springs to mind, into which i place a car

Is there an 'I' there separate from the experience placing a car into awareness?

ah, how sneaky that is. i added an i (confusing, but made sense when i typed it) when in fact the scene sprung into awareness and unfolded w/o what i think of an an i having any say in the construction of the experience.

going off my word diet as I muse on how the mind might have done that ...

Please don't Mark, you'll be completely wasting our time here.
...
Ultimately, this is YOUR inquiry and I can only guide you while you walk that journey.

Thank you for the course correction and video link, I hadnt heard of Jed McKenna before..

-Mark

[Paulo]

ah, how sneaky that is. i added an i (confusing, but made sense when i typed it) when in fact the scene sprung into awareness and unfolded w/o what i think of an an i having any say in the construction of the experience.

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does
it have a shape? A size? A quality?

[I will trust you to inquire into this by direct experience yourself. You know the technique well now].


You may like to look at this series of videos inspired by Jed McKenna, starting here -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDQX3MybtVA

Paulo :-)

[Tak]

When you say "I", what does that refer to in direct experience? Please describe in detail – does
it have a shape? A size? A quality?

Looking at the "i" involved in the car imagination experience .. i can find no way to express the "i" in terms of physicality .. no shape, no size. There is no experience of quantity, nothing but assumptions of existence (which is not direct experience) and the arising of thoughts and feelings around the topic of a car.

-Mark

[Paulo]

Great Mark, now you're getting it.

When you point at your shoes and say 'these are MY shoes' what does the 'my' refer to in direct experience?

Would the shoes be any less shoes, or change in any way, without the label 'I' on them?

Paulo :-)

[Tak]

When you point at your shoes and say 'these are MY shoes' what does the 'my' refer to in direct experience?

'My' in 'MY shoes' refers to a concept, which has no existence in direct experience.

Would the shoes be any less shoes, or change in any way, without the label 'I' on them?

No they would not change. a thought arises to share with you -- a label has no effect on the object itself.

-Mark

[Paulo]

Very nice Mark, let's go for a big one today -

There is no 'you' in any way shape or form, never was, and never will be

What thoughts, emotions, feelings, physical sensations come up for you when you consider this statement?

Answer in detail from your own experience as honestly and openly as you can. This is a big one, so feel free to write a paragraph or two on this. Just be sure you rely on your own direct experience, and you'll be fine.

Paulo ;-)

[Tak]

There is no 'you' in any way shape or form, never was, and never will be
What thoughts, emotions, feelings, physical sensations come up for you when you consider this statement?

a torrent of thoughts arise -- outright dismissal "bullsht*", argumentation (point, counterpoint, etc), a touch of dogma, and more. Emotions are mixed in there as well -- unease, "oh sh*t" feeling, fear of unmet expectation, doubt, uncertainty, "what will i do". Sensations i associate with thinking arise -- furrowed brow, unfocusing of sight, 'coldness', fidgeting, pursed lips. Questions (thoughts) keep arising. What? how? 10,000 things. My experience here is not like the "shoe" or "car" experience, which felt tranquil and a mildly surprising delightful revelation.

this flurry of experiences can generally be classified as uncomfortable.

A final overwhelming discouraging feeling -- I have an expectation (and corresponding disappointment?) ..... [edit -- maybe i should stop here and exclude this thought at the root of the feeling but I think the question asks for thoughts: that I should be somehow more focused on seeing this truth, or better at it, or immune to the defenses, or more willing to be uncomfortable until i SEE or .. blah blah. especially after listening to Jed(?) videos. ]

-Mark

[Paulo]

a torrent of thoughts arise -- outright dismissal "bullsht*", argumentation (point, counterpoint, etc), a touch of dogma, and more. Emotions are mixed in there as well -- unease, "oh sh*t" feeling, fear of unmet expectation, doubt, uncertainty, "what will i do". Sensations i associate with thinking arise -- furrowed brow, unfocusing of sight, 'coldness', fidgeting, pursed lips. Questions (thoughts) keep arising. What? how? 10,000 things. My experience here is not like the "shoe" or "car" experience, which felt tranquil and a mildly surprising delightful revelation.

this flurry of experiences can generally be classified as uncomfortable.

It's ok to allow those feelings to just be there. Watch them arise and fade away, just like waves on a beach. Lets look at feelings again a little more closely -

Think of something that made you laugh.

Is there a seperate entity called 'I' there creating that thought and the associated emotion?

Did the experience of happiness you’ve just had last, or did you begin feeling something else after some time? How did this change happen?

Think of the same scene again, but this time try to feel sad.

Share what you observed and experienced with this exercise.


I also wanted to thank you at this point for continuing with your inquiry, all that time and dedication are exactly what will bring you through. You can take of leave the Jed McKenna videos, and of course anything I've told you here - the greatest, and only guide is your own direct experience, don't forget that.

Paulo :-)

[Tak]

I'd also like to express my appreciation for this service you are offering. Im very grateful for your patience and guidance.

Think of something that made you laugh.
Is there a seperate entity called 'I' there creating that thought and the associated emotion?

No still no 'I' creating the thought or emotions. i must confess a bit of hesitation here (it manifested differently than the car example), but examination of the direct experience showed no I involved.

Did the experience of happiness you’ve just had last, or did you begin feeling something else after some time? How did this change happen?

It did not last. the intensity of emotion and rememberance was higher at first, then a fondness, then other thoughts and feelings began to arise. planning, tangential thoughts, etc.

Think of the same scene again, but this time try to feel sad.

A quite similar experience. I felt a habitual attraction to dwell/hold-on to this particular sad feeling (rather than let it arise and fade), but eventually the experience faded after i stopped "feeding" it.

Share what you observed and experienced with this exercise.

"this too shall pass", one of my favorites. I've never explored 'this too shall pass' in this manner before. Thanks for guiding me into a direct experience of it, rather than the intellectual mulling on it.

I did observe that allowing myself to turn attention ? focus ? to a feeling or thought tended to perpetuate the duration of that thought / experience.

Also, the remembrance of those feelings did seem to provide a direct experience of some shade of happiness / sadness. a remembrance experience happening (in the now) and brings a feeling (in the now) along with it? I guess that describes the experience of a 'fond memory' but i never explored that until now.

-Mark

[Paulo]

"this too shall pass", one of my favorites. I've never explored 'this too shall pass' in this manner before.

One of my favorites too. You may wish to explore this further -

Carry out the 'stop and act like a statue' excercise from a previous post, and this time extend the time you are 'frozen' (maybe to five minutes at first).

Watch the experience as a statue would - thoughts, feelings, physical sensations.

Is there anything in direct experience that isn't in a constant state of flux (i.e. movement/change/arising and fading/growing or decaying)?

Is there an entity called 'I' at the centre of this experience, watching it all happen?

Also, the remembrance of those feelings did seem to provide a direct experience of some shade of happiness / sadness. a remembrance experience happening (in the now) and brings a feeling (in the now) along with it?

Well observed - the thoughts are in the now, the feelings are in the now, both direct experience.

Paulo :-)

[Tak]

Watch the experience as a statue would - thoughts, feelings, physical sensations.
Is there anything in direct experience that isn't in a constant state of flux (i.e. movement/change/arising and fading/growing or decaying)?

No, aside from some thought quibbles, there is nothing happening external or internal that isnt in some state of flux. Some were obviously (wind moving across the garden, squirrel running). Others were not so obvious (bricks of my patio), tho i believe (but outside of direct experience) there were changes happening (temperature of the bricks was changing as the sun moved across them, etc).

Is there an entity called 'I' at the centre of this experience, watching it all happen?

I can't find an entity called "i", at least not w/o resorting to new-agey-or-religious beliefs.

edit: possibly all that follow is a thought / sidebar that i should ignore?

Feeling arise when i write on this question. Frustration, exasperation, assorted other negatives. they fade after awhile.

A thought arose: "I am lucky to be here watching this". Upon further consideration, i dont know what that "i" is that is lucky to have had the experience / exercise, but it seems a very persistent belief (subject to fading too..?). "sight is happening" and "observation is happening" and "wind is happening" and even that "im not the center of this experience" are comfortable thought, but the thought/belief that there is no "I" is uncomfortable.

What is this belief? why does it persist? Ah, it seems this thought has brought a feeling of frustation back. lol

-Mark

[Paulo]

Good work Mark!

Others were not so obvious (bricks of my patio), tho i believe (but outside of direct experience) there were changes happening

There's no need to BELIEVE anything when you can SEE what IS simply by looking. Sit on your patio for 24 hours and don't move, then you will see if the bricks change (in temperature, for example). More practically - feel the temperature of the bricks at midday, and then again at midnight - all very easy.

The point is simple - we can believe anything, but belief doesn't necessarily correspond to reality. Did you ever believe in Santa Claus, tooth fairy - where have they gone now?

I can't find an entity called "i", at least not w/o resorting to new-agey-or-religious beliefs.

Beliefs, really? Why believe when you can just open your eyes and look. And so the question remains - Is there an entity called 'I' at the centre of this experience, watching it all happen?


I really liked your sidebar observations - why? because they were based on direct experience and observation, not speculation. Great, more of that please :-)

but the thought/belief that there is no "I" is uncomfortable.

Once again, no need to believe, just look and see what is. I asked you to think of a car and the image of a car pops into experience. I asked you to think of something happy, and a happy scene popped into imagination with it's corresponding feelings. You observed that both the car and the happy scene faded after some time.

Now, with the thought that there isn't an 'I' seperate from experience - feelings of frusration, etc. pop up. Do you see a pattern here? See if those feelings fade over time too, and share what you find if you wish - only don't use the word 'but' in your response.

Look at all the 'popping' that happens throughout the day - someone tells you it's dinner time, what happens? You look at the clock and see it's bedtime, what happens? You watch a sad movie, what happens? You see your boss at work, what happens? You feel too hot or cold, what happens?

Is there an 'I' seperate from this experience making it happen?
Just LOOK - it's really very easy.

Paulo:-)