p.s. about "power over attention":
sometimes the sense is, that i have power over attention and sometimes, that i don't have enough power to stir attention. just like when addicted to a substance: i know i theoretically don't have to use it, but the draw to use is more powerful than my will to not use and so it's clear that it's no use to fight it.
who would like to guide me?
Re: who would like to guide me?
the next questions and investigations are around fear, controle and watching nature.
i might wait until fear arises again to have a close look.
<3
i might wait until fear arises again to have a close look.
<3
Re: who would like to guide me?
p.s. to "are they thoughts or my thoughts":
actually, the only reason or angle i could come up with for them being my thoughts is, that they appear in my thinking, not in anybody elses thinking. "my" refering to my body. then the same question comes up: "is it my body or a body?" it is my body because it is nobody elses body and because all experience (my experience) is experienced in and from this body. however there is still no me (seperate self) that this body belongs to. that 'me' is a thought.
<3
actually, the only reason or angle i could come up with for them being my thoughts is, that they appear in my thinking, not in anybody elses thinking. "my" refering to my body. then the same question comes up: "is it my body or a body?" it is my body because it is nobody elses body and because all experience (my experience) is experienced in and from this body. however there is still no me (seperate self) that this body belongs to. that 'me' is a thought.
<3
Re: who would like to guide me?
good morning annie,
one more observation:
it also seems that when there is narrating going on, just like right now, that
i am speaking, narrating, that the words come from me, are chosen by me. this is the primary
sense, which invites me to look at this happening more closely.
:)
one more observation:
it also seems that when there is narrating going on, just like right now, that
i am speaking, narrating, that the words come from me, are chosen by me. this is the primary
sense, which invites me to look at this happening more closely.
:)
Re: who would like to guide me?
Dear Liv,
Wonderful observing!
and then there are the thoughts - i want to go to bed, i want to lay down etc. - yes?
So again, the thoughts tell a story of the imaginary 'I' character.
Where is this 'I' that controls attention? Look closely and see if it can be located. Look in Direct experience, as attention shifts around from one focus to the next, is there an 'I' that is doing that? Or is it a narration, a thought telling a story of how 'I' shifted attention?
So look at the question again: In Direct experience, in reality, are they YOUR thoughts??? Really look deeply into this.
With narrating, writing these posts here, look and see - where is the 'I' that is narrating? Can you locate it? Or is it again just the subject of the thoughts.
A thought is real, it appears, disappears. But the subject of the thought might be a real thing or it might be an imaginary thing. Thought doesn't differentiate, thoughts don't think, they just happen. If I'm thinking about Hansel and Gretel, does that make them real? If you're thinking about 'you', are you real or imaginary?
Well done, Liv, you've done a lot of great observing, and observing direct experience is the way to seeing clearly.
with love
annie
Wonderful observing!
Yes, so there is a series of physical sensations appearing, and thoughts appearing. If we look at what you wrote here, first there are the sensations - the eyelids get really heavy, eyesight gets weaker, the body gets heavy, yawning - yes?tiredness: the eyelids get really heavy, eyesight gets weaker, the body gets heavy, yawning, a magnetic pull, strong desire to go to bed, lay down and get some shut eye, to pull the plug and let all go, a longing for the thinking engine to stop. energy goes way down, breathing becomes slower and heavier.
and then there are the thoughts - i want to go to bed, i want to lay down etc. - yes?
So again, the thoughts tell a story of the imaginary 'I' character.
Yes.thoughts appear and disapear. i am not making thoughts appear and disappear.
All of this is more thoughts, which 'you' are not making appear or disappear, it's just thinking happening. Like clouds appearing in the sky - sometimes just a few little white fluffy clouds float gently by, other times there's nothing but an unbroken mass of clouds. Just clouds appearing, a 'thought storm'.however i still get the impression that sometimes i am hopping onto that train and riding the hell out of it, it feels like it's an addiction that i have no power over to make it stop, the current being too strong and it doesn't feel good to fight it either,
Yes, just thinking happening.so it is thinking happening and an impression as if i had power over attention.
Where is this 'I' that controls attention? Look closely and see if it can be located. Look in Direct experience, as attention shifts around from one focus to the next, is there an 'I' that is doing that? Or is it a narration, a thought telling a story of how 'I' shifted attention?
Direct experience shows what is actually present in reality. Thought, as you say, is entertainment, story, drama, fiction.are they thoughts or my thoughts? they are thoughts, that appear. i don't make them. to the question "are they my thoughts?" , when looking in direct experience, there is no answer. in order to give an answer, i would have to refer to conceptual, abstract thinking and then i could come up with lots of angles, entertaining the possibility why they are or could be my thoughts. but this would be coming from story-line, imagination, not from direct experience. so there would be no truth in such an answer and it is not experience but entertaining thought.
So look at the question again: In Direct experience, in reality, are they YOUR thoughts??? Really look deeply into this.
Am confused! Is 'my' anything more than a label? A word? Can a body actually be possessed? Look closely as the parts of the body come into view or are sensed - is there anything that makes them 'yours', other than a label?"is it my body or a body?" it is my body because it is nobody elses body and because all experience (my experience) is experienced in and from this body. however there is still no me (seperate self) that this body belongs to. that 'me' is a thought.
Good that you're going to examine this more closely! When speaking is happening, where is this 'I' located? Or is there just the sound of a voice, and the sensation of movement in the jaw, of a tongue moving? Really notice how these experiences are made up of separate components of experience, separate sensations, which are then labelled as 'speaking'.it also seems that when there is narrating going on, just like right now, that i am speaking, narrating, that the words come from me, are chosen by me. this is the primary sense, which invites me to look at this happening more closely.
With narrating, writing these posts here, look and see - where is the 'I' that is narrating? Can you locate it? Or is it again just the subject of the thoughts.
A thought is real, it appears, disappears. But the subject of the thought might be a real thing or it might be an imaginary thing. Thought doesn't differentiate, thoughts don't think, they just happen. If I'm thinking about Hansel and Gretel, does that make them real? If you're thinking about 'you', are you real or imaginary?
Well done, Liv, you've done a lot of great observing, and observing direct experience is the way to seeing clearly.
with love
annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
dear annie,
wow, that gives me a sweet boatload of looking to do...:))
awesome, thank you so much! i'll keep trickling in the 'reports' on each of the pointers.
i might be skipping the "fear"-observation until i actually have a hands on encounter again.
<3 liv
wow, that gives me a sweet boatload of looking to do...:))
awesome, thank you so much! i'll keep trickling in the 'reports' on each of the pointers.
i might be skipping the "fear"-observation until i actually have a hands on encounter again.
<3 liv
Re: who would like to guide me?
dear liv,
how's it going?
love
annie
how's it going?
love
annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
dear annie, hello :))
want to give you a clue in as to where abouts i stand on my investigations.
i wrote all questions/pointers you posed down on paper. Mostly on walks
and before i turn the light off at night to go to sleep i have been posing them.
these questions are pointers to beyond thinking. because
if they are posed within and answered from conceptual thinking, the answer is just
another thought. it is not about the answer! this is about using the question, by
letting it point to where the answer lies, and the answer does not lie in a concept.
it lies in experience. it is about really wanting to know experiencially what the question is refering to wanting to know experiencially. the question is not wanting an answer, it's wanting the experience of where it's pointing to. ...and when i truely want to know,
what these questions point to wanting to know, they point my attention
in the direction of what wants to be known experiencially. This is beyond thinking, although thinking might still be going on, and narrating thoughts will continue to describe even what's not going on.
These are excellent pointers and this is a practice. It takes a lot of will power to actually do it and it seems effortsome. There is huge resistance around doing this,, like trying to dig a hole into water with my hands. It's impossible. But it's not about a result as such, it's the experience of truely wanting to know, and of holding that want as a question, just holding it. I am getting that it's keeping at it, It's not about being done. -„when will i finally see“- i cannot begin a yoga practice and expect to experience the groove that a continuous practice can bring about, after a few weeks.
And although we've been in the thread for several months now, it's about the actual time spent looking. This is like water hollowing out an imaginary stone. It takes as long as it takes.
So, that is why i am not writing any answers to your questions, until the questions actually aren't my question anymore and the answer is describing what is directly experienced when posing the question.
Unless you guide me to do otherwise.
with love,
liv
want to give you a clue in as to where abouts i stand on my investigations.
i wrote all questions/pointers you posed down on paper. Mostly on walks
and before i turn the light off at night to go to sleep i have been posing them.
these questions are pointers to beyond thinking. because
if they are posed within and answered from conceptual thinking, the answer is just
another thought. it is not about the answer! this is about using the question, by
letting it point to where the answer lies, and the answer does not lie in a concept.
it lies in experience. it is about really wanting to know experiencially what the question is refering to wanting to know experiencially. the question is not wanting an answer, it's wanting the experience of where it's pointing to. ...and when i truely want to know,
what these questions point to wanting to know, they point my attention
in the direction of what wants to be known experiencially. This is beyond thinking, although thinking might still be going on, and narrating thoughts will continue to describe even what's not going on.
These are excellent pointers and this is a practice. It takes a lot of will power to actually do it and it seems effortsome. There is huge resistance around doing this,, like trying to dig a hole into water with my hands. It's impossible. But it's not about a result as such, it's the experience of truely wanting to know, and of holding that want as a question, just holding it. I am getting that it's keeping at it, It's not about being done. -„when will i finally see“- i cannot begin a yoga practice and expect to experience the groove that a continuous practice can bring about, after a few weeks.
And although we've been in the thread for several months now, it's about the actual time spent looking. This is like water hollowing out an imaginary stone. It takes as long as it takes.
So, that is why i am not writing any answers to your questions, until the questions actually aren't my question anymore and the answer is describing what is directly experienced when posing the question.
Unless you guide me to do otherwise.
with love,
liv
Re: who would like to guide me?
dear liv
what a wonderful post!
with love
annie
what a wonderful post!
YES!!!this is about using the question, by letting it point to where the answer lies, and the answer does not lie in a concept.it lies in experience. it is about really wanting to know experiencially what the question is refering to wanting to know experiencially. the question is not wanting an answer, it's wanting the experience of where it's pointing to. ...and when i truely want to know, what these questions point to wanting to know, they point my attention in the direction of what wants to be known experiencially. This is beyond thinking, although thinking might still be going on, and narrating thoughts will continue to describe even what's not going on.
Yes, it feels there is resistance - and yet is there any 'you' who is resisting, or is it simply that 'resisting' is what is happening in the moment?It takes a lot of will power to actually do it and it seems effortsome. There is huge resistance around doing this,, like trying to dig a hole into water with my hands.
Wise words, dear Liv.But it's not about a result as such, it's the experience of truely wanting to know, and of holding that want as a question, just holding it
Yes, so true. And freeing to realise this. And the 'looking that takes as long as it takes' is also just what is happening, no 'you' doing it.And although we've been in the thread for several months now, it's about the actual time spent looking. This is like water hollowing out an imaginary stone. It takes as long as it takes.
'Questioning', 'answering', 'looking' - all simply what is happening, to no-one. So when 'writing of answers' happens, it does.So, that is why i am not writing any answers to your questions, until the questions actually aren't my question anymore and the answer is describing what is directly experienced when posing the question. Unless you guide me to do otherwise.
with love
annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
hello annie,
thank you very much for your encouraging post!
:) liv
thank you very much for your encouraging post!
whenever i feel resistance coming up, i will look at this.It takes a lot of will power to actually do it and it seems effortsome. There is huge resistance around doing this,, like trying to dig a hole into water with my hands.
Yes, it feels there is resistance - and yet is there any 'you' who is resisting, or is it simply that 'resisting' is what is happening in the moment?
:) liv
Re: who would like to guide me?
hello annie,
i am back from my trip and reacclimatized, ready to continue with you in the thread. must say that there has been as good as no observing, no asking of the questions i wrote down from you. it felt like i needed a break from what feels like a heavy task. at the same time i also realize that this is the only purpose in my life now (and since years), this is what everything else revolves around. no other desire for achievments have any pull. it's like the only thing i can do is this and the only thing that matters is seeing truth. everything else just naturally unfolds, but this is the only goal. there is no other pull to achieve or do than to see truth. at the same time as there is this huge resistance to doing this looking. because it seems like it is an excersize which entails huge concentration. this is why i am writing this to you, because, upon experience, i sense that through being in the thread with you, the inquiry naturally picks up again.
with love,
liv
i am back from my trip and reacclimatized, ready to continue with you in the thread. must say that there has been as good as no observing, no asking of the questions i wrote down from you. it felt like i needed a break from what feels like a heavy task. at the same time i also realize that this is the only purpose in my life now (and since years), this is what everything else revolves around. no other desire for achievments have any pull. it's like the only thing i can do is this and the only thing that matters is seeing truth. everything else just naturally unfolds, but this is the only goal. there is no other pull to achieve or do than to see truth. at the same time as there is this huge resistance to doing this looking. because it seems like it is an excersize which entails huge concentration. this is why i am writing this to you, because, upon experience, i sense that through being in the thread with you, the inquiry naturally picks up again.
with love,
liv
Re: who would like to guide me?
Hi Liv,
Welcome back! I had been away over the weekend and Monday so couldn't check emails, which is why I have been slow in responding to your email. Which is of course exactly perfect, just as is the timing of your email to me. Nothing can be any different to the way that it is, simply because it is the way that it is! Observing, not observing, resisting, not resisting - all just what happens in the moment in the story of Life in the form of Liv waking up from the story of being Liv to recognising itself as Life in all its myriad shapes and forms - what an adventure!
So, I will post again tomorrow on the thread in response to your posts there.
with love
Annie
Welcome back! I had been away over the weekend and Monday so couldn't check emails, which is why I have been slow in responding to your email. Which is of course exactly perfect, just as is the timing of your email to me. Nothing can be any different to the way that it is, simply because it is the way that it is! Observing, not observing, resisting, not resisting - all just what happens in the moment in the story of Life in the form of Liv waking up from the story of being Liv to recognising itself as Life in all its myriad shapes and forms - what an adventure!
So, I will post again tomorrow on the thread in response to your posts there.
with love
Annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
dear annie,
thank you so much for your pm letter. i would love to add it into the thread, if you are ok with it, as it is just a wonderful expression of realization and reminder. it is strange, when i recieved this notice of a pm, my first emotional reaction was anxiety once again. "did i do something wrong?" "did I fall short of honoring your tireless support of guidance"? because i have not been able to get myself to do anymore "looking" or asking of the list of questions. i have a bad consciouns because of it. i feel i should be doing this, because i want to be free and because i am allowing your help, support, guidance, so i need to be doing my part also. i notice the thoughts and feeling. and i was indeed very glad to read what you wrote! currently, since my last longer post bevor i went on the trip, i have been rather exhausted, also mentally and reaching for lots of mental distractions by entertainment of stories in form of movies, documentaries and such. at the same time i realize that bevore i left for the trip there was quite some time where there was intense thinking about who i am, investigating and looking happening. i feel its not quite done yet, but perhaps as all things, it goes in cycles and there are phases of more intense looking and then none. at the same time noticing happens all the time.
thank you so much for your presence and guidance!
much love,
liv
thank you so much for your pm letter. i would love to add it into the thread, if you are ok with it, as it is just a wonderful expression of realization and reminder. it is strange, when i recieved this notice of a pm, my first emotional reaction was anxiety once again. "did i do something wrong?" "did I fall short of honoring your tireless support of guidance"? because i have not been able to get myself to do anymore "looking" or asking of the list of questions. i have a bad consciouns because of it. i feel i should be doing this, because i want to be free and because i am allowing your help, support, guidance, so i need to be doing my part also. i notice the thoughts and feeling. and i was indeed very glad to read what you wrote! currently, since my last longer post bevor i went on the trip, i have been rather exhausted, also mentally and reaching for lots of mental distractions by entertainment of stories in form of movies, documentaries and such. at the same time i realize that bevore i left for the trip there was quite some time where there was intense thinking about who i am, investigating and looking happening. i feel its not quite done yet, but perhaps as all things, it goes in cycles and there are phases of more intense looking and then none. at the same time noticing happens all the time.
thank you so much for your presence and guidance!
much love,
liv
Re: who would like to guide me?
Hi Liv,
it's fine if you want to add these pm messages to the thread.
Interesting how the mind creates a story of a Liv who might do something wrong, who might not honour your guide etc etc - but can you see how that is just a story? In the reality of the moment, was there simply a seeing of a notice of a PM, a body sensation of some sort, and then thoughts arising 'did i do something wrong' etc? Can you see how the story gets fabricated?
Yes, maybe looking goes in cycles of intensity - but can you ever find any 'you' controlling that? Or any 'you' experiencing that, outside of a thought?
Look forward to reading your observations
with love
annie
it's fine if you want to add these pm messages to the thread.
Interesting how the mind creates a story of a Liv who might do something wrong, who might not honour your guide etc etc - but can you see how that is just a story? In the reality of the moment, was there simply a seeing of a notice of a PM, a body sensation of some sort, and then thoughts arising 'did i do something wrong' etc? Can you see how the story gets fabricated?
Yes, maybe looking goes in cycles of intensity - but can you ever find any 'you' controlling that? Or any 'you' experiencing that, outside of a thought?
Look forward to reading your observations
with love
annie
Re: who would like to guide me?
good morning annie,
the beauty is that this interaction isn't even about a relationship between me and you, it is about consciousness as you, coming through you pointing consciousness as me to consciousness within me!!
the personal interaction between me and you helps me to see what illusory beliefs are still active within me. It's like looking in a mirror. A mirror that is so clear that it helps me to see `myself' and my stressful thoughts, or the illusory thoughts that are entertained in this mind, that are keeping an idea of who i am alive.
Coming back to your question. Yes, that is what it was. And i was astonished at how simply recieving the notice of having recieved a pm message from you triggered anxiety and i could ask myself what am i thinking, that is triggering this? It must be a thought that is a belief, because it was there before the pm message arrived. The notice of it's arrival had immediately triggered anxiety, but it could not be it's source. How could a notice of having recieved a message be a source of fear? There must be a belief behind this, which the notice simply triggered.
this is an old conditioning from early childhood, when i was always afraid that i might have done something wrong or fallen short in some way to the expectations of those who mattered to me.
as consciousness increases, sensitivity rises and ever greater subtleties trigger fear based emotions. This is a good thing, as it takes the triggering of fear based emotion to feel it and it takes feeling it consciously and seeing it for what it is, a conditioning of a belief, that isn't true, for this conditioning to lose validity and thereby power.
So back to your question: message comes, emotion arises, story arises respective of the emotion. It can end here and this package is entertained and then there is a form of suffering, or this experience can become a pointer to an unconsciously held belief, that then can be detected and inquired as to its truth, or the emotion can simply be felt in the knowing that it isn't refering to anything that is true, it is simply an old brain conditioning.
Yesterday i had an episode where deep sadness and desperation arose and although the respective beliefs where clear: „I have no content and purpose, no reason to live, I am alone, nearly all my friends and my partner left me, nobody wants to be with me, i have no home, i do not know what to do with myself, i feel incapable of doing anything, i have no significance, all is empty“, these beliefs where experienced as factual statements about me and my life. In other words as real. i could find proof for them in my present living situation and in all past experience. It felt like i was fooling myself to say, this is just story, it's not real. I wasn't able to feel the emotions consciously as mere sensations and see the statements as a story, only existing in thinking, and so there was great suffering.
What happened yesterday was that i was not able to truely bring awareness back into the moment and into feeling because the statements seemed true. When i look at them now: content, reason, purpose, home and significance are concepts that only exist within a mentally, imagined framework superimposing immediate experience. They are taken to be necessary pillars of happiness.
„I am alone“. What was really happening was feeling a strong negative emotion and thoughts saying: „I am alone“. Yes I was alone, in that there was no other body around. But this fact need not trigger such emotion as i am alone most of the time and it's fine. So why sometimes does it feel so aweful to be alone? it's emotions arising that are contracted, negative, a reflection of those thoughts. The belief that these thoughts are real statements about me and my life and hence that this is not ok as it is, i am not ok as i am, my life is not ok as it is. „My life“ can only exist in thought as well. Because it is imagined memory attached to the current situation. And the current situation is interpreted into a story. It is not simply direct experience.
Any attempt or want to change the present moment, on account of the sense that as it is, it isn't good enough, comes from resistance and brings forth more resistance and thereby suffering.
I am getting the taste that these recurringly strong negative emotions and respective beliefs can only exist upon the belief that i am this idea of who i am, i have taken myself for granted to be. That is the basis for all, even the subtlest suffering in me.
when such thoughts are accompanied with negative emotion, there is a degree of confusion about whether there might be something to it. what is nice is when there is that space in which the thoughts and feelings arise to the question of their validity. in that space the anxious emotion can be consciously felt, instead of entertained. and then it does not matter, because any validitiy the statement may have, is noticed to exist only in the realm of thought and concept. if i where letting you down, this notion could only exist as a belief, a thought, a concept, of what letting down is. in reality this is not the come from, this is not consciously intended, there is only openness, sincerety and love here, and these are also words trying to describe the feelings driving my interaction with you. Of course there is also fear and anxiety that is triggered through all kinds of interactions and circumstances. The interaction here with you is a perfect ground to really look at and feel them.can you see how that is just a story? In the reality of the moment, was there simply a seeing of a notice of a PM, a body sensation of some sort, and then thoughts arising 'did i do something wrong' etc? Can you see how the story gets fabricated?
the beauty is that this interaction isn't even about a relationship between me and you, it is about consciousness as you, coming through you pointing consciousness as me to consciousness within me!!
the personal interaction between me and you helps me to see what illusory beliefs are still active within me. It's like looking in a mirror. A mirror that is so clear that it helps me to see `myself' and my stressful thoughts, or the illusory thoughts that are entertained in this mind, that are keeping an idea of who i am alive.
Coming back to your question. Yes, that is what it was. And i was astonished at how simply recieving the notice of having recieved a pm message from you triggered anxiety and i could ask myself what am i thinking, that is triggering this? It must be a thought that is a belief, because it was there before the pm message arrived. The notice of it's arrival had immediately triggered anxiety, but it could not be it's source. How could a notice of having recieved a message be a source of fear? There must be a belief behind this, which the notice simply triggered.
this is an old conditioning from early childhood, when i was always afraid that i might have done something wrong or fallen short in some way to the expectations of those who mattered to me.
as consciousness increases, sensitivity rises and ever greater subtleties trigger fear based emotions. This is a good thing, as it takes the triggering of fear based emotion to feel it and it takes feeling it consciously and seeing it for what it is, a conditioning of a belief, that isn't true, for this conditioning to lose validity and thereby power.
So back to your question: message comes, emotion arises, story arises respective of the emotion. It can end here and this package is entertained and then there is a form of suffering, or this experience can become a pointer to an unconsciously held belief, that then can be detected and inquired as to its truth, or the emotion can simply be felt in the knowing that it isn't refering to anything that is true, it is simply an old brain conditioning.
Yesterday i had an episode where deep sadness and desperation arose and although the respective beliefs where clear: „I have no content and purpose, no reason to live, I am alone, nearly all my friends and my partner left me, nobody wants to be with me, i have no home, i do not know what to do with myself, i feel incapable of doing anything, i have no significance, all is empty“, these beliefs where experienced as factual statements about me and my life. In other words as real. i could find proof for them in my present living situation and in all past experience. It felt like i was fooling myself to say, this is just story, it's not real. I wasn't able to feel the emotions consciously as mere sensations and see the statements as a story, only existing in thinking, and so there was great suffering.
What happened yesterday was that i was not able to truely bring awareness back into the moment and into feeling because the statements seemed true. When i look at them now: content, reason, purpose, home and significance are concepts that only exist within a mentally, imagined framework superimposing immediate experience. They are taken to be necessary pillars of happiness.
„I am alone“. What was really happening was feeling a strong negative emotion and thoughts saying: „I am alone“. Yes I was alone, in that there was no other body around. But this fact need not trigger such emotion as i am alone most of the time and it's fine. So why sometimes does it feel so aweful to be alone? it's emotions arising that are contracted, negative, a reflection of those thoughts. The belief that these thoughts are real statements about me and my life and hence that this is not ok as it is, i am not ok as i am, my life is not ok as it is. „My life“ can only exist in thought as well. Because it is imagined memory attached to the current situation. And the current situation is interpreted into a story. It is not simply direct experience.
Any attempt or want to change the present moment, on account of the sense that as it is, it isn't good enough, comes from resistance and brings forth more resistance and thereby suffering.
I am getting the taste that these recurringly strong negative emotions and respective beliefs can only exist upon the belief that i am this idea of who i am, i have taken myself for granted to be. That is the basis for all, even the subtlest suffering in me.
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