Come on in, leave your beliefs at the door.

[Nemo]

An open invitation to anyone.
Tell me why you are here, and what you expect from this?

[mgtribes]

I am here to find freedom from my judgements, beliefs, expectations, and all those other things that make me unhappy, and prevent me from experiencing joy and connectedness.

I have done a number of enlightenment intensives over the years. my most powerful experience was discovering an answer to who I was. I was completely in touch with who I was, but the certainty went away in a few hours. the ego crept back in. doubt was sown. I want to be in touch with who I am all the time and live in the now.

and yes I know wanting to live in the now is this crazy paradox, because wanting is a future state, which excludes being present. :)

what I want is to find enlightenment or awakening....and ultimately I want to spread this to others.

[Nemo]

Hello and welcome :)

So, when you found the answer to who you were, what was it? Do you still identify with this answer as being who you are? And, is it your intent to recapture this experience of discovering this answer?

[mgtribes]

The answer that came was a sense of me. the words that came along with it were "I am me."

The answer was so simple. It was basically saying that anything that was not me was not me. I really don't know how to explain it very well.

I still believe the answer I got, but it is more intellectual now. I don't resonate with it.

I would like to recapture that feeling, but I feel there is more to what I am looking for. a sense of connectedness. I had a milder experience of what I am many years later... a part of a greater whole...

[mgtribes]

P.s. Hi Nemo! Thanks for taking me on!

Mike

[Nemo]

You're welcome Mike.

Firstly, it's important to try and drop any expectations what what you think might happen here and how it might feel. Just try to be open and offer least resistance.

There is a greater whole that everything is a part of and nothing can be separate from. If you like around you this is obvious. Everything is interconnected, like well oiled parts of a very finely tuned machine, life. Each part is reliant upon all the other parts to operate.

What we do is we point to a location in this beautiful machine, this process, and say "this is me". But there is no separate entity within that location, that person "Mike", looking out from those eyes. When we look, we find it's difficult to even try to define the boundaries or borders of this reference point which we call "me" and identify with.

Take a look, Mike, examine your direct experience and try to locate a self. Tell me what you are referring to when you say "me".

[Nemo]

*if you look around you... (I think I was combining look and life, heh.)

[mgtribes]

I have tried to locate myself many times. I can only locate my body, which is not self. I can replace pretty much any part of my body, and that doesn't change myself. my cells are changing and regenerating all the time, and that doesn't change my self. I got to the point where I honestly felt that self didn't exist. Or it is just unfindable.

When I say me, it is that which I identify with. What is undeniably me. It has nothing to do with me physically, or what I know, or my nationality, relationships, jobs, or roles of anykind. I am just me. I don't know what it is, but I haven't found it.

[Nemo]

You can see that body is not self. That is great.

I got to the point where I honestly felt that self didn't exist. Or it is just unfindable.

Have you heard of Occam's Razor? It's a principle that is used in things like physics, quantum mechanics, and philosophy that proves to be a useful tool when examining what is "real". It "shaves" or "cuts" away unprovable assumptions and any kind of theories and/or phenomena that cannot be verified in first-hand experience. It is extremely useful in looking at self/no-self.

This relates to the self perhaps being simply "unfindable". Any number of things could perhaps exist... maybe instead of a self there is a giant purple spotted elephant running the show. Maybe there are invisible pixies that buzz around your face and whisper in your ears, influencing or creating your thoughts.

What is comes down to is this:

There is no difference between something that exists but is not observable and something that doesn't exist at all.

Make sense?

When I say me, it is that which I identify with. What is undeniably me.

So, what is it that you do identify with?

What fuels the need to have an identity at all? What is the belief behind the assumption that a self is even needed?

[mgtribes]

You don't start out slowly, do you?
I have a physics degree, so I am quite familiar with Occam's Razor, and have applied it during my contemplations, especially when trying to find myself, and cutting away parts of my body (figuratively) to find the location of me.

I guess I feel that there is a me. the entity behind my eyes. the one responsible for my thoughts. the one feeling my emotions. And having spent all that time in Zen like fashion asking Who am I? and coming up with the answer I am me. This gave me no insight into what this me is... but still felt there was a me.

but it gave insight into what it wasn't, which was pretty much everything I associated with me. I guess it was like peeling the onion and discarding all the layers that weren't me, to find the me was what was left after every layer was discarded. Occam's razor suggests that the me at the centre is nothing.

There is no difference between something that exists but is not observable and something that doesn't exist at all.

I wrestled with this one for a while. If it is unobservable, it may mean I just need to use different tools to observe it, but that then makes it observable. And if it is completely unobservable, then it can have no measureable impact on me, otherwise it would be observable in some way, and therefore equivalent to not existing, for my purposes. So I accept that statement. This is not saying, though, that if something has not been observed, it falls into the same category as unobservable.

What fuels the need to have an identity at all?

Even though I can't find me in my body, I've had this body for a while, and I do identify with it. It's difficult to let go of that. It's mine, I take care of it, I take pride in it, and what it can do and how it looks. And it alls sounds like ego stuff when I say it, but it's there. I identify with my name. And I know it's just a label that was assigned to me, I build a reputation around that name.

What fuels my need to have an identity. Mostly inertia, I think. I've always had an identity. underneath that is a desire to be accepted, and identified and identifiable by others. underneath that is a fear of not being recognised. And underneath that is a fear of being alone.

And interestingly, being alone is only possible if I have an identity.

[Nemo]

You don't start out slowly, do you?

Hehe, nope. Diving in head first :)

It's obvious you have already done a tonne of work with this, which is excellent. You are standing on the edge and all you need now is a little push, which hopefully I can help with.

I guess I feel that there is a me. the entity behind my eyes. the one responsible for my thoughts. the one feeling my emotions.

Observe an emotion or thought as it is happening. Follow it back to it's origins. Did you make the thought happen? What did?

Occam's razor suggests that the me at the centre is nothing.

This is pretty fucking spot on. And Occam's Razor is only one of many theories that can either lead to or back up this finding. Any path you take, you will find that the same conclusion will eventually be reached here.

Even though I can't find me in my body, I've had this body for a while, and I do identify with it. It's difficult to let go of that. It's mine, I take care of it, I take pride in it, and what it can do and how it looks.

Yeah, it is difficult to let go of that. But listen, you are not destroying the self, you are simply seeing that it never existed, that it is an illusion. So nothing changes in this respect, what is there beforehand can still be there after.
So take the I's out of what you wrote there, and what do we have? There is a body, there is pride taken in this body, in what it can do and how it looks. There is identification. But NONE of these things requires a you, or an entity behind them making them happen, do you see? Identification is there. It's just not yours :)

[mgtribes]

yes, I have done a bit of work..I hope a little push will help! That's why I'm here.

But it seems that most of my understanding is intellectual. I can use Occam's razor to cut away everything to reveal nothing at the core, but does it mean I accept that?

Observe an emotion or thought as it is happening. Follow it back to it's origins. Did you make the thought happen? What did?

This was fun. I've been going through a breakup recently, and so there are lots of emotions swimming around. What made the thought/emotion happen?!? I don't know. I don't know where they come from. but the emotions kinda vanished as I started chasing them. It's like they turned into whispy vapours and dissolved. But I don't know where they came from. Nice to have them go away though!

There is identification. But NONE of these things requires a you, or an entity behind them making them happen, do you see? Identification is there. It's just not yours :)

So, whose is it? The identification just happens? I just get in the way?

[mgtribes]

Ok, so my thoughts creat my emotions. Wow, and what a direct link that is. From unbidden emotions to I'm in control. that is pretty handy.

Ok thoughts. It seems I create them. And I choose their content. They rin away on me. Ok, but there is no me. So the thoughts are just created... That's not right.

Thoughts don't exist... They are only in my head... Hmm. My head. No. No head. Not my head just a head.

I observe, create, control the thoughts but they aren't mine and there is no I.

Hmmmm.

[Nemo]

But it seems that most of my understanding is intellectual. I can use Occam's razor to cut away everything to reveal nothing at the core, but does it mean I accept that?

Yeah, it's one thing to read a book about fire and know everything there is to know about it - it's characteristics, it's physics, it's effects, etc... but it's quite another thing to actually see real fire and stick your hand in!

This is something you need to actually see. So try to put your intellectual understanding to one side for a bit, and revert back to simplistic innocence in your looking, as much as you can. Strip it right back to basics.

Observe an emotion or thought as it is happening. Follow it back to it's origins. Did you make the thought happen? What did?

This was fun. I've been going through a breakup recently, and so there are lots of emotions swimming around. What made the thought/emotion happen?!? I don't know. I don't know where they come from. but the emotions kinda vanished as I started chasing them. It's like they turned into whispy vapours and dissolved. But I don't know where they came from. Nice to have them go away though!

Aw, sorry to hear about your breakup. Maybe we can put it to good use though, eh? :)
Okay, let's work on this a little more. You say you don't know where the thoughts and emotions surrounding your recent breakup come from. But look! Part of your answer is right there - They are a result of the breakup!

So, do a little more digging.
IF you can see that thoughts aren't being willed into existence by an independent entity... then where are they coming from? Examine something happening right now, anything - thought, emotion, action...Who or what is running the show? And what does this imply?

There is identification. But NONE of these things requires a you, or an entity behind them making them happen, do you see? Identification is there. It's just not yours :)

So, whose is it? The identification just happens? I just get in the way?

Question this assumption. Why does it need to belong to someone? Does everything require an owner in order to exist? Is it possible that otherwise might be true?

Ok thoughts. It seems I create them. And I choose their content.

How did you come to this conclusion? Are you capable of choosing to think about something that you have never heard, seen, or experienced before? You could try to imagine some fantastical alien creature perhaps, but it's components are still going to be a mish-mash of things you already have knowledge of.

To take this even further, if you do attempt to imagine the above, is it because you have chosen to? Or is it that these very circumstances have bidden it? You could conversely choose not to, just to try and prove that there is a free agent with free will, but will it really prove that? Or would that decision still be a product of circumstance?

[Nemo]

Hey Mike, you still around?