Looking for a guide

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,

Yes, there doesn't seem to be a precise answer to "is DE awareness?". The question would likely lead to a lengthy (and facinating) debate. It seemed interesting to get you to look at the question. You've made some interesting observations.
I looked up Sati/Smriti. Wikipedia said it's Mindfullness in the Buddhist context. I'd say that is a close relative of DE

We're here for experiential stuff not for debating. So lets move on.
In the sight is there only seeing,
in sound is there only hearing, etc fits very well with this investigation.

Take a walk. Do some other action at the same time, e.g.tapping finger and thumb together.
Notice. Is there a walker or only walking. In any action is there a doer.

Look at thought. Is there a thinker, or just thoughts arising?
In experience is there an experiencer, or only experiencing?
Is there a witnesser in any of this?

Is there an entity of awareness? Is there an awarer or is there only aware-ing ?

Please consider and answer all of the above.

You have said that there's been a shift. Have you seen through the illusion of self yet?

Warm regards,
Ray

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
I couldn't find where I'd said "a shift"..but things have changed and something has been seen through.
Just a moment ago; music sounds, fingers tap on the chair arm, foot moves-but it's all deliciously free of anything outside the experience.
Two or three things can be experienced without upsetting anything. There is no witness nor is there a need for such..that would be like trying to fit a shadow in somewhere.
Is there an entity called Awareness..yes and no!!!
There is DExp with all the space and light needed to be just so. There is DExp but no spectator.
"Is there ever a doer" ...does a wave need a wave maker to fall on the beach. It's only conditions.
Best Wishes, Jonathan

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
I have to ask for time off.
Tomorrow, sunday, I will travel to London to spend 2 days with my daughters. Something arranged a while back. I'll return here after a days travelling on wednesday. I'll be able to see a computer but not much opportunity to write.
Keep Well, Jonathan

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for letting me know you'll be away for a few days. I shall be on holiday for a week from next Saturday. I'll be able to post sometimes, but my wife and I will be on a narrow boat and we usually don't get a good signal on the canal. Maybe we'll be done by then. (But there is no goal to be reached and no-one to reach it, of course.)

I couldn't find where I'd said "a shift"..but things have changed and something has been seen through.

There was something you wrote a few days ago I just looked back, on 3rd March you said "What have I connected with? or rather what has changed?"
For many people there are no fireworks or angels playing trumpets :-)
Sometimes it's only noticed on looking back. Re-read your first post and see how that sits with you now.
If someone were to insult you or do something that would previously anger or enrage you, would you react any differently now?

Just a moment ago; music sounds, fingers tap on the chair arm, foot moves-but it's all deliciously free of anything outside the experience.
Two or three things can be experienced without upsetting anything. There is no witness nor is there a need for such..that would be like trying to fit a shadow in somewhere.
Is there an entity called Awareness..yes and no!!!
There is DExp with all the space and light needed to be just so. There is DExp but no spectator.
"Is there ever a doer" ...does a wave need a wave maker to fall on the beach. It's only conditions.

So there is no witness.
Would you say that looking for a witness only emptiness is found? Also when looking for a self as the doer, the chooser, the experiencer, the thinker and the controller.
What then with Awareness. Is there an active agent there? Is there an I AM-ness? Is there anything personal about that? Where do you fit in?

Have a lovely time visiting your daughters.
Ray.

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
Thanks again.
I re read the 3rd March and remember moving out from the smaller to the bigger view. And when things had been seen in the smaller it was then seen in the bigger picture. The sense of Emptiness just expanded. The sense of self or labelling was just washed away or didn't turn up to be washed away.
"Look for a witness, agent or label...." The experience is only complete without them. And the experience without them is everything. Real/bold even.
"Would I be insulted or moved.." I dont know. Maybe some hook would go into position, or try to. But without oxygen its surely got to go.
Keep Well,
Jonathan

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,
I guess it will be a few days before you read this.

Please answer my earlier questions about Awareness.

What then with Awareness. Is there an active agent there? Is there an I AM-ness? Is there anything personal about that? Where do you fit in?

Also look at the seeker. Are you still seeking? If so what areas need to be clarified? Or what has happened to the seeker and seeking?

Bets wishes,
Ray

[jon45]

Hi Ray,

Back again. London is a busy place .

You're earlier questions were regarding Awareness; NO, there is no active agent or I AM ness or anything personal.
In Awareness/Direct Exp. the experience is a whole "entity"..there is no partiality like a self or a view. It's looking, seeing, vision. It's stable (without someone being stable).
"Where do YOU fit in.."
There are two possibilities ; 1. There is an experience where no form of YOU exists.
2. There is an Awareness/experience of an Illusion, a cloud passing by.
But if it is DExp the illusion is not an active "thing"
Seeking and Seekers; This is a kind of trap.
Seeking is losing DExp.
A seeker is an illusion in DExp.
Best Wishes, Jonathan

[ray]

Hey Jonathan,
Glad you're back from the rush and bustle of London.

"Where do YOU fit in.."
There are two possibilities ; 1. There is an experience where no form of YOU exists.
2. There is an Awareness/experience of an Illusion, a cloud passing by.
But if it is DExp the illusion is not an active "thing"

Well,if it's an illusion...

A couple of questions for you to ponder.

When you look at others, what do you see?

When the illusion of self has been seen through completely, what is left?

Best Regards,

Ray

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
"When I look at others what do I see.."
I see the present. I feel the present moment. If thoughts arise, if feelings arise they arise now and the experience will reflect the present conditions. Whatever they are.
"What is left when illusion of self is seen through...."
Everything. The truth. Direct Experience. Understanding.
See habits that would go on and on if given a chance.
See labelling that tries to fix anything because that makes it more comfortable and graspable.
See the mind busily trying to divide experience up into repeated patterns.
See/feel the freedom that's possible in letting things be.
Be well, Jonathan

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,

"When I look at others what do I see.."
I see the present. I feel the present moment. If thoughts arise, if feelings arise they arise now and the experience will reflect the present conditions. Whatever they are.

It may just be the difficulties inherent in language, but I'll ask anyway. Who is seeing the present, feeling the present moment?

Is there still some remnant of a separate self, or a belief in a separate self? Is there any one typing or is typing just happening?

Ay doubt that the illusion of self has been seen through?

Ray.

[jon45]

Hi Ray,

Yes language.
You asked "what do you see.."
I answer "I see...."

Anyway; " who is seeing the present.."...there is nobody, no one area outside the exprience. No one looking in/on.
What is there? There is the complete experience. A Direct Exp of all that's there in the present. All the present conditions. Seen without a see-er. Directly experienced.
Typing? Typing is happening, thoughts are moving through, feelings change but it's all unattached, kind of free in DExp.
"Any doubts of self...."NO that's not there/here
Best Wishes, Jonathan

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,

Hi Ray,

Yes language.
You asked "what do you see.."
I answer "I see...."

Anyway; " who is seeing the present.."...there is nobody, no one area outside the exprience. No one looking in/on.
What is there? There is the complete experience. A Direct Exp of all that's there in the present. All the present conditions. Seen without a see-er. Directly experienced.
Typing? Typing is happening, thoughts are moving through, feelings change but it's all unattached, kind of free in DExp.
"Any doubts of self...."NO that's not there/here
Best Wishes, Jonathan

Really nice :)

Please answer these questions. I think you'll enjoy this.
As usual, answer from direct experience. You can answer them all at once or a few at a time.

1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I' , at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Can there ever be?

2) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?

3) in Experience, is there an experiencer?
is it the body that experiences? Or is the body simply an experience?

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

5) How does it FEEL to See? describe in detail.

6) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?

7) What was the last bit that pushed you over or made you look? Was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? How is your experience different now?

8) Now that you see that 'you', the first person character at the core of life, isn't, what do you see when you see 'others'? Explain in your own words from your direct experience.

Best wishes
Ray

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
Back at last.
1."Is there a me, is there a you.."
Not in any way fixed, stable or permanent. The "I", "you" is a collection of constantly shifting thoughts and feelings that show habits and patterns that are only linked together by a fabrication, an illusion. The thoughts etc are only related to themselves.
"was there ever...can there be.." No that's like saying the Mirage today was a real lake yesterday.
2. When "I" say "I".. the experience pointed to is the relative connection between thoughts/feelings etc. It is trying to establish a particular connection between all the elements of experience. DExp. realises the many aspects arising and passing away but the illusion of seperate self wants things organised in an attempt to have one central reference point. There is no such point nor can it be created so the illusion of self is constantly frustrated/diappointed but it still keeps trying to make " the process work" Seeing the Illusion as Illusion is liberating.
3. "Is there an experiencer.." No; not in the sense that something or someone exists apart from the experience itself. The experience of an Illusion of a self is an experience within DExp. DExp contains all the elements of experience; it's all there fitting together just as it is, expansive, inclusive realisation.
Body awareness is an aspect of DExp. but has no other reality outside itself.
4. "Explain in detail the Illusion.." Once we have any glimpse of the Illusion of S S we also realise its already been operating for some time. It's been working in a particular and repetitive way for ages trying to "persuade" that a range of certain experiences when heaped together can be seen as a self as an individual. But "who" is doing this heaping ? No one! It is a repeating tendency in the mind to make boundaries and create separation. The Illusion is a tendency/belief that boundaries create safety and security. But boundaries create the opposite.
Only in DExp. where all elements are as they are; true is true, illusion is illusion...then "we" experience a letting go, a freeing up.

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,

Great that you're back! Thanks for the responses, I look forward to the answers to the other questions.

Please answer the following too. When we're all done you will be invited to join our aftercare and discussion groups. There's also a group for those interested in volunteering as a guide with LU.

9)Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

10)Anything to add?

Take your time, I understand you have appalling weather!

Best wishes,
Ray

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
5. "How does it feel.." The feelings are those of relief, release. Then a steadiness even a smoothness. A feeling that after the vibrations of a runway the mind is in a smoother space, more complete. More robust.
6. "How would you descibe to someone..." This would depend on what communication would be available. It would come down to words and what tone could be used to get something across.
Perhaps begin with the more negative side looking at how vulnerable we become by holding on to particular views. Views seem to be a defence of the self....then move to look at the foundations for this sense of self. How is it experienced? Where do the thoughts and feelings come from? Whose running the show?
If relationship to self could be unravelled/seen differently what could that be like?
7. "What was the bit that pushed you..." In some ways it was a gradual process but two or three things stand out.
The first was experiencing the mechanicalness of brain/mind when choosing the numbers eg 1-20.
The second, a bigger moment, was seeing that you could accept illusion as illusion. Because it was an illusion it didn't mean it didn't have to exist. The Mirage doesn't have water but it still has "something" ie an experience.
"how is experience different now..." please see no. 5.
8. "How do you see others..." The process of penetrating the Illusion of self starts by looking at your own mind. Another dimension opens up when awareness turns to nature and others. Then in DExp. an interconnectedness is known. The Laws of Nature, the arising and falling away of conditions is felt right throughout everything. There is subjective experience, objective experience but the illusion of boundaries starts to dissolve in the bigger picture.
9. "Do you control..." Does one control, decide; it looks as though we do.
We sit down to decide where we would like to go for our next holiday. But what's really going on? Conditions change; no holiday/holiday/no holiday.. but how were these things "decided"? Can you call it deciding when things exist on a stream of events.
If there is no thinker/feeler found in thoughts etc then no one is deciding, decisions are happening.
The kind of "decisions made" may just reflect the base of possibilites.
Decisions usually reflect past and future perceived needs. But in DExp. past and future are only constructs.
10. "Anything else.."
First; a huge appreciation for putting all this together and being so steadfast.
Second; the process was always absorbing, often challenging and very often a lot of fun.