guiding by location

[Artsys]

Jim,

Your persistence is admirable. Stay with the focused intent that was there from the start.

I see something then thought happens. Or, actually seeing happens, then thought happens. Maybe there is just a string of sensations and thoughts; one leading to the next. I don't know where the "control" is. Is there anything controlling? There is a sound, which triggers a thought, which triggers a movement, which causes something to be seen, which triggers a thought, etc.

But then a thought says "wait, "I" am controlling the thinking. Or then a memory says: "I was supposed to think about so-and-so" and then I start thinking about "so-and-so". Is that "me" controlling my thinking?

BINGO! Seeing happens than a thought appears saying "I" thought that.

IS there anything that owns the thoughts? Is there a controller? This is where you MUST look. Take the time right now to look into what is occurring in the immediacy of direct experience and see what occurs when you see/hear/feel/think anything. Look for an origin, an owner, a controller. Report what comes up.

Once again, it SEEMS like there is an "I" reading and thinking--how else could it happen if "I" didn't do it. But the more I stick with it and investigate, there is no "I" there. Just more thoughts and once again I can see that "I" is just an idea, not a thing.

Excellent. Can you confirm then that LIFE just appears and the 'I' thought is attached to every appearance as though it's happening by, as, in and through 'me'? What would you call a collection of (self/me/I) thoughts as they relate to everyday arisings in your direct experience?

Events, sensations, sights and sounds; thoughts are appearing and arising. Does not there have to be a "me" there to feel, hear and see them? And the thoughts--do "I" notice and react to thoughts, or does the next thought just happen as a result of the previous thought?

It feels like I am moving "Onward towards the Gate." but my thinking is pulling back and forth. Thinking this then thinking that. Seeing that there is no self behind the thinking, but feeling like there must be. Very confusing.

Jim, this is where I give you a little Zen stick slap:) You're on the cusp on understanding, so rather than me answering your questions above. Please dig deeper, Look closer, see this for yourself.

You say events, sensations, sights, sounds and thoughts are appearing and arising, correct? Then you ask "Does not there have to be a me there to feel/hear/see them? Please tell me what you appercieve the idea of 'me' to be?

Can you see that all thoughts are equally appearing as automatically as any object, feeling, and that they're creating a story through inter-connecting them and assembling a belief in something? What is that belief?

What is a thought? Can you control them? We've walked this discourse previously, so perhaps a refresher is necessary.

Can the objective reality of your direct experience exist without the "I" thought?

Take some time in nature to experience the senses/thoughts/presence(aliveness). Look for a thinker, doer, believer.

_Love

[Jim]

Art,

Thank you for the pointers. I am really trying here. Seem to have more resistance than I would like.

IS there anything that owns the thoughts? Is there a controller? This is where you MUST look. Take the time right now to look into what is occurring in the immediacy of direct experience and see what occurs when you see/hear/feel/think anything. Look for an origin, an owner, a controller. Report what comes up.

Sitting with my eyes closed, listening to the sounds in my room.  At first there was a clear sense that "I" was listening, "I" was hearing and it was "I" that was labeling and describing what I heard.  After relaxing with it a bit I started to feel more like a receiver than a do-er.  The sounds were happening, therefore hearing happens, therefore labeling and other thoughts happen.  It all happens without a separate "I".  But then I am once again listening, and the hearing and the thinking are happening INSIDE me.  So it feel like this is the unique, separate "ME".  

Trying again:  I am sitting, looking, listening.  I notice a few things, the folds of the comforter on the bed, the sound of the washing machine.  Then my thoughts start racing from one thing to another--work tomorrow, home repairs, plans after work, a friend, supposed to be looking for an owner or controller of my thoughts, things I need to do, what time should I get up tomorrow? etc., etc.  I can find no origin or controller.  Thoughts just happen.  I can't stop them, but maybe I can think a different thought.  "I can think a different thought" is just another thought.  There is no owner.  Thoughts keep happening.
 

Excellent. Can you confirm then that LIFE just appears and the 'I' thought is attached to every appearance as though it's happening by, as, in and through 'me'? What would you call a collection of (self/me/I) thoughts as they relate to everyday arisings in your direct experience?

Yes, that sounds right, that "life just appears" and I think that it is happening to me.  It is my solitary, unique experience.  That is where I keep going:  I am here, and there is everything else.  There is me--this thinking, breathing, walking, talking ME, and everything else is outside of me, happening to me.  But then again, when I look for "me", there is nothing there.  There are just thoughts about me, and they arise just like the rest of life--they appear.  

I am probably as confused as I have ever been in my life right now.  

Jim, this is where I give you a little Zen stick slap:) You're on the cusp on understanding, so rather than me answering your questions above. Please dig deeper, Look closer, see this for yourself

I want to see for myself, but the reality of it still eludes me.  It feels like something is there that just can't be grasped.  But I am trying.  

Can the objective reality of your direct experience exist without the "I" thought?

I'm not sure what I am looking at here, but I think - yes - the objective reality of my direct experience will exist without the "I" thought.  But the "I" thought is still there.  

I was not able to spend any time in nature this weekend--it's been crappy here in the Midwest and I have been a bit ill.  I will spend more time looking tomorrow.

Thank you again for your patience and persistence.

Jim

[Artsys]

Jim,

Let's take a look at Doership. Review the link and report back.

http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... rship.html

How does choice happen?

The confusion is normal and can be somewhat disorienting. Stay with this and everything will clear up.

_Love

~Art

[Jim]

Art,

I did the exercises, some yesterday and today. I am in total agreement: there is no "I", and no do-er. I am getting better at, more comfortable with, doing that--investigating, looking for "I" or self and seeing there is nothing there. There is just thinking happening, sensations arising. I am just sorry that it doesn't last longer. I will try to keep investigating with other activities throughout the day. I feels good to be conscious of and to notice that there is no "me" doing or thinking. Doing and thinking are happening.

Jim

[Artsys]

Hi Jim,

Tell me how it's known that 'it' doesn't last longer?

What is always here?

Are you always here?

~Art

[Jim]

Art,

Tell me how it's known that 'it' doesn't last longer?

What is always here?

Are you always here?

Those are hard questions.   

I guess the "it" that doesn't last is the awareness that there is no self.  I recognize that there is no self when I investigate, but the feeling fades when I stop investigating and go back to "living my life".  I follow every thought up and down...anxiety and guilt about some memory, or chasing some fear into the future.  And it is all about me.  "ME".

"Always here?"  I don't know.  I guess thinking is always here.  The chatter inside my head is always here.  Even when I am not listening, I sometimes notice that, yes, still talking away up there.  I guess sensations are always there too.  Maybe awareness is always there(I am aware of thinking and sensations). But I am not sure if awareness is  there when I am asleep.  

--Am I always here?--Not sure.   Thinking and sensations may always be here, but there may not be an "I".  Maybe the "I" that I have been looking for is the awareness.  Consider the example of sleeping:  thinking and sensations may continue uninterrupted, but I am not aware of them while I am sleeping; however, when I wake up, "I" remember "my" dreams.  "I" is being aware of my thoughts and my sensations.  "I" is awareness.  But "I", awareness, is not always there.

Jim?

[Artsys]

Hello Jim,

How was your weekend?

Yes...hard in a good way. We're getting to the sticky stuff.

I guess the "it" that doesn't last is the awareness that there is no self. I recognize that there is no self when I investigate, but the feeling fades when I stop investigating and go back to "living my life". I follow every thought up and down...anxiety and guilt about some memory, or chasing some fear into the future. And it is all about me. "ME".

Does Awareness ever go away?
Confirm for me if Awareness ever leaves, as well as thoughts and feelings.

"Always here?" I don't know. I guess thinking is always here. The chatter inside my head is always here. Even when I am not listening, I sometimes notice that, yes, still talking away up there. I guess sensations are always there too. Maybe awareness is always there(I am aware of thinking and sensations). But I am not sure if awareness is there when I am asleep.

Has there ever been a gap in thinking? What was Aware of that?

Is there Awareness that you're dreaming?

--Am I always here?--Not sure. Thinking and sensations may always be here, but there may not be an "I". Maybe the "I" that I have been looking for is the awareness. Consider the example of sleeping: thinking and sensations may continue uninterrupted, but I am not aware of them while I am sleeping; however, when I wake up, "I" remember "my" dreams. "I" is being aware of my thoughts and my sensations. "I" is awareness. But "I", awareness, is not always there.

Does thought say there is an "I" that is Awareness. See if there is ever Awareness without the "I" thought, then look at the mechanism that labels each thought, feeling, sensation.

What knows that all of that is occurring?

~A

_Love

[Jim]

Art,

I am well. You?

Does Awareness ever go away?
Confirm for me if Awareness ever leaves, as well as thoughts and feelings.

I can't find "Awareness" when I look for it.  It is like looking for "self".  There are just thoughts there saying:  "I am aware of this or that", but I don't find a separate awareness.  Thoughts and feelings seem to be continuos, just following on the heals of each other; one leading to the next, to the next, and so on, etc.  

Has there ever been a gap in thinking? What was Aware of that?

I'm not sure if there is a gap in thinking.  I think it is non-stop.  Sometimes it continues without the labeling or self-referencing thoughts, so is seems like a gap or that is happening without me being aware of it.  But what is it?  Sometimes I engage in my thinking and thoughts build on each other and reference each other--I am thinking about so-and-so.  Other times my mind wanders, and thoughts occur without becoming a whole story.  Sensation can be like that too.  Sometimes I hear something, but it does not register.  My wife might say something, and I "hear" it, but I have no idea what she said.  

I don't think there are gaps in thinking (not sure), but I think it is just thinking that is aware of thinking... a thought that says "I am aware of thinking that..."

Is there Awareness that you're dreaming?

I don't know if there is Awareness of dreaming.  Dreaming obviously (more obviously than thinking) just happens--no control over it.  And unless I think about it I don't even remember it.  So after I wake up, and I think about a dream that I had, I think that I am aware of dreaming.  But it is really just another thought:  "I had a dream about so-and-so".  While I am dreaming there is nothing else--just the thoughts and images and other sensations of the dream.  Then afterwards there may be memories of those thoughts and sensations that occurred in my dream, but those memories are just more thoughts.

Does thought say there is an "I" that is Awareness. See if there is ever Awareness without the "I" thought, then look at the mechanism that labels each thought, feeling, sensation. 

What knows that all of that is occurring?

I think I am seeing that what I thought was awareness is the same as "I".  Awareness is just another thought (or the contents of a thought) that says: "I am aware of this or that".  Just another thought.  It is just thinking.  A dog barks and a thought says "a dog is barking" and then the next thought says "I am thinking about a barking dog".  

I no longer think there is awareness separate from thinking.  Awareness is just a self-referencing thought.

Am I on the right track here?  I can say "yes, I understand that there is no separate self, there is no separate entity that is "aware" of all that is occurring.  But it is just more thoughts in the thread.  I hope there is a deeper understanding.  Expectations return when I feel close to seeing.

More pointers please!

Fondly,

Jim

[Artsys]

Jim,

Tell me the difference between thinking and awareness?

Can you think and not be aware of it?

Have you ever seen a self, outside of thoughts and feelings that create a story about one?

_Love

[Jim]

Hi, Art -

Tell me the difference between thinking and awareness?

Embarrassed to say, but I don't know what "awareness" is.  What I find when I try to experience awareness is some thoughts that say "I am aware of this or that" or "I am aware of thinking".  But they are just thoughts.  Which is all I seem to find "up there".  Thoughts.  I can't seem to find a separate understanding of "awareness", separate from thought, that is.

One thought says "I want something".  Then another thought says "I need to do something to get what I want".  Another thoughts says "it won't work anyway...I won't get what I want".  Then a feeling happens...DEPRESSED, TIRED.  Then a thought:  "I'm depressed again."  And then other thoughts take off. And I finally circle around--"am I aware of thoughts?" "Are thoughts aware of thoughts?"

Can you think and not be aware of it?

I have a conflict with this question, because recently I have been noticing thoughts in--what I would describe as--mid-stream.  There will be a voice "up there"  and a louder thought will say:  "there's a voice...that's weird".  Almost like there are layers of thoughts going on, sometimes like a song playing in the background.  Mostly I am noticing the louder thoughts. But I think there probably are thoughts that I am not aware of.  Is that nutz?

Have you ever seen a self, outside of thoughts and feelings that create a story about one?

No.  I cannot find a "self" when I look.  Self is a concept. I am beginning to see it like that:  that thoughts create a story about a self, but it is just a story--an idea.  The dilemma is that the story keeps me quite busy.  Sometimes that story seems like the only thing that matters.  It's about how "I" am reacting to everything that happens.  That's the crap I wish would cease (more expectations, I guess). I'd like to be free of the bondage of self.

Sincerely,

Jim

[Artsys]

Jim,

Is there a watcher of thoughts + thoughts? look closely and see if there is someone/something that watches thoughts.

But I think there probably are thoughts that I am not aware of. Is that nutz?

Not Nutz...! Notice how there is Awareness of 'thoughts'. Look and report what occurs when thoughts come up and depart how that is known.

No. I cannot find a "self" when I look. Self is a concept. I am beginning to see it like that: that thoughts create a story about a self, but it is just a story--an idea. The dilemma is that the story keeps me quite busy. Sometimes that story seems like the only thing that matters. It's about how "I" am reacting to everything that happens. That's the crap I wish would cease (more expectations, I guess). I'd like to be free of the bondage of self.

Can you see that their is a belief in the thought, "I would like to be free from the bondage of self?"

~A

[Jim]

Art,

.

Is there a watcher of thoughts + thoughts? look closely and see if there is someone/something that watches thoughts.

When I try to find that "watcher" of thoughts, I just create it with more thoughts.  "I am aware of thinking about my dog" is just another thought.  I think I may get a bit stuck here, because I have read books about "Awareness" and how it is THE thing.  But I can't seem figure out what awareness is.  It is as though thoughts are aware of themselves, but I don't find anything else "up there".  Even when I work at the Direct Experience exercises we talked about earlier, it just seems like more thoughts--there is a stimulus or some sensation which triggers a thought, maybe a labeling thought or a description, i.e. "hearing".   I don't know where awareness is in all of that.

Tonight I can hear traffic outside.  It seems to me that thought becomes aware of the sensation--hearing or sound.  I don't know what is aware of the thinking--maybe the next thought?

Not Nutz...! Notice how there is Awareness of 'thoughts'. Look and report what occurs when thoughts come up and depart how that is known.

When I look, when I investigate, it seems like thoughts just come and go on their own.  I glance over and see a business card on my table, and think about that business for a second, but then other thoughts replace it.  Thinking seems pretty complicated to me.  There is the physical aspect of the neurons firing and so on, but all the variables involved--the memories and conditioning, sensations and feelings, hormones and the burrito I had for dinner.  Thoughts just come and go, and if I say "I am aware of thinking about the business card on my table", that is another thought.

Can you see that their is a belief in the thought, "I would like to be free from the bondage of self?"

Yes, when you point it out I can.  It sounds like the "bondage of self" is just another IDEA.  I cannot really be in the bondage of self, because there is no self.  It's just another story isn't it?  Free or not free of the bondage of self--only thinking can make it so.

so...

Feels like I am starting to drop some old ideas.

Warmly,

Jim

[Artsys]

Hello Jim,

I'm going to point more directly now to see where you're stuck.

When there are no thoughts do you still exist?

Is there a you/self in direct experience?

Look fiercely into this. Suspend all assumptions and expectations.

Ask the question(s), and LOOK.

_Love

~Art

[Jim]

Hi, Art:

When there are no thoughts do you still exist?

I think I do still exist.  When there are no thoughts, there will be thoughts again.  There may not be thoughts, or at least conscious thoughts at a given time, but then a sound or some other sensation will trigger a new thought.  And there I am, thinking again.  When I look at it, maybe "I" am thinking.  There is no other "I".  Just thinking.

Is there a you/self in direct experience?

The only "I/self" I find is thinking.  That must be "me".  My thinking happens to me only...the perceptions, sensations--sights and sounds, and the descriptions, the memories, the stories.  They are all me.  That is the separate self.  The thoughts and sensations that occur inside my head.  

(I don't think that is right, base on what I have read previously, but it seems to be the case right now.  All of that thought and sensation being experienced--that seems to be "me", and that is all I am..)
Jim

[Artsys]

Hi Jim,

Take a look at thoughts.

How do they come to be? And are they your thoughts? Can a thought be aware of a thought?

If yes are you in control of thoughts? Do you know the next thought, can you stop a thought? Can you decide NOT to think of an Apple right now?

If no, what is the direct experience of thoughts and control?

:)

This should be a fun exercise.

~Art