Ready to dive in...

[ixturtle]

If there is any moment (a millisecond is enough) where there is just aware-ing that a script was being acted out, then there has been SEEing.

Hmmm.... "just aware-ing that a script was being acted out" jumps out at me as not my experience even in the little windows. in the little windows, it's like, "oh that's what's happening now", which i would explain as conditioning interacting with environment. but "script" has a different feel to it... like preordained. is that what you mean?

[vinceschubert]

i was using the work script in the context of story. Not really pre-ordained but certainly automatic. Habit, old conditioned responses.
If when you say "Oh, that is what is happening" and it is a recognition of "conditioning interacting with environment", it seems to be the same thing.
The point is, that you are SEEing it, therefore you are not lost in the 'self', there is recognition and therefore there is de-conditioning happening.
All is good.
If you are waiting for ALL conditioning to evaporate before you accept that the shift has occurred then you are doing yourself a dis-service. That won't happen. There will probably still be some old conditioning remaining when you die at the age of 110. The criteria is that it is seen and doesn't swallow you up repeatedly and remain until the next one changes the scene. Teflon. It doesn't stick. That's what we are looking for. Thoughts continue but like traffic noise in the background. No importance given where none is due.
It's so ordinary it's disappointing, until it is happening and the Wonder of Everything envelopes you. Then it's so ordinary that all you can say is "wow, how come i never saw this before ?"

love

[ixturtle]

Hi vince--

The point is, that you are SEEing it, therefore you are not lost in the 'self', there is recognition and therefore there is de-conditioning happening.

I get this in one way and then in another I don't at all. I'm wondering if we can start again. Right back at the beginning. Maybe I could even start a new string as this one is starting to feel a little overweight (!) and you could ask me all the start up questions...

Just a thought.

10 tons of appreciation to you regardless,

love love,
ix

[vinceschubert]

Ok, give me a while to consider how we might start again.
In the meantime, have a look at this video then tell me the difference between a sense of self and an actual self. Use the vid to understand how a sense of self is a brain construction and is maintained by habitual perceptions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk

vince

[ixturtle]

tell me the difference between a sense of self and an actual self

Sense of self is constructed through multiple external stimuli interacting with internal conditioning. What's amazing in the video is how quickly the shift happens, simply via coordinated visual and physical stimulation for a FEW SECONDS. One would imagine that after a lifetime, the brain gets pretty convinced that it's sense of self is right on the money as everything internally and externally seems to confirm it.

An actual self would imply an enduring controlling entity. But the brain is in a constant state of flux, as is the body. Perception flows through this flux. Flowing flux or fluxing flow, in either case, it's not solid. Meanwhile, the brain is made up of neural networks that are reacting to stimuli in conditioned ways. And thus not controlling either. Not enduring, not controlling. So no actual self. AND YET SENSE OF SELF PERSISTS!!

Which brings me back to my constant struggle with balancing this LU work and my work life. In classes I am always reenforcing the notion of using mindfulness practice as a way of creating more space/balance to respond, rather than habitually react. And students regularly report the difference it makes in their lives. Responding is not necessarily controlling, but it does imply active will. I know we've gone through this a million times in terms of the journey and what teachings are appropriate for who, but I seem to get tangled in it again and again. Also related to work, I sat part of a weekend retreat with a zen teacher. He spoke a lot about the absence of a real self and in general was a lovely and inspired presence, and yet there's still this implication that you have to work to see it...

[vinceschubert]

AND YET SENSE OF SELF PERSISTS!!

It will, until it doesn't. It is a useful use of story, up to a point. Do you expect to always operate without that sense ?
The issue isn't that there is that sense of self. It is that it doesn't hoodwink you when it causes suffering.
Certain emotions (those that are the a reflection of suffering) will be a trigger that you are believing the story of self. This recognition will eventually mean that it rarely happens.
You don't have to own what i'm about to say. Just consider if it is relevant.
This de-conditioning wont get much momentum while the victim status is maintained. Certainly choices and decisions happen, just not by a self.
Helplessness and acceptance are not the same thing.
Helplessness is the product of story and actually is part of directing those choices and decisions.
Acceptance is also part of directing a different direction for those choices and decision, but is not tied to an active story.
What happened to Sarah, when she went from a similar place to you (and Rose) to knowing that the shift had happened ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

What happened to Sarah, when she went from a similar place to you (and Rose) to knowing that the shift had happened ?

That's funny-- I read towards the end and then I backed up a bit but i never got to the place where things began to click for her. Now on my list of things to do this weekend.

Certain emotions (those that are the a reflection of suffering) will be a trigger that you are believing the story of self.

yes, and yet the story of self in those moments is so darn compelling. and in general, it feels like ignoring them is a guaranteed ticket to "I LOSE". self absorbed and petty perhaps, but that's often the sum of it.

This de-conditioning wont get much momentum while the victim status is maintained.

right. that's a doozy.

Helplessness is the product of story... Acceptance is not tied to an active story.

This is a useful distinction. Thank you.

[ixturtle]

just read through sarah's whole string.

There's a lot there, but I didn't connect/engage with it in the way of the other two strings.

The one changing pattern for me that I've noticed lately is that when I used to forget things I would always go back for them in this totally neurotic way. Lately, if I forget something there's a momentary "SHIT! You're such an idiot!" and then an immediate, "Oh well, love, that's what happened" which is followed by, "huh, I guess I didn't need it" and some amusement about that, and also curiosity to see how it turns out.

Other than that, there's a sense of stuckness around all this. I feel bogged down in all the stuff I'm teaching and writing about being one thing and then all the LU stuff being another. I recognize that seeing happens when it does, but feel frustrated when it doesn't, which for the most part has seemed to characterize the last few weeks.

Another aspect of Sarah's string that resonated for me is her art. For me, it's movement. I can't say there is "no me" when i move/dance, but it's the place where i'm absolutely open to what's next, totally caught up in the moment, curious, free. If there's a story, it can be imagined and moved to and played out all in real time, so even the story becomes an exploration of presence. Laughter arises easily in this state, as do other emotions.

Have been tripping up a bit on desire. Somewhere in Sarah's string you talk about desire being the first step towards suffering. Of course, that's what the Buddha said too, but for some reason it caught me up short. it's tricky territory because from a heavily protestant childhood history of squashing desire, there's a strong pull to break free from that squashing. any thoughts or advice on this?

vince, i feel like i've been half hearted and half in with this lately. i guess that's just what's here too-- i just want to be ALL in. i guess that's why i wanted to start over. in any case, just wanted to say how much i appreciate you being there, your patience (which has been extraordinary... my story i realize, but in any case, it makes me want to kiss your feet), and all your wisdom that always feels like it hits the nail on the head, or even if it doesn't, leads the way to the next thing. i'm just grateful i guess. who's grateful? this meat sack is i guess.

love love,
ix

[vinceschubert]

The one changing pattern for me that I've noticed lately is that when I used to forget things I would always go back for them in this totally neurotic way. Lately, if I forget something there's a momentary "SHIT! You're such an idiot!" and then an immediate, "Oh well, love, that's what happened" which is followed by, "huh, I guess I didn't need it" and some amusement about that, and also curiosity to see how it turns out.

This is pretty liberated behavior. In fact it's one of the best indicators. It's behavioral, not theory, not words. It's the result of de-conditioning.

there's a sense of stuckness around all this.

So what ! There would be a sense of the rubber hand being yours too. The test is, how much do you believe that sense. Does it control you after you SEE it happening ?

I feel bogged down in all the stuff I'm teaching and writing about being one thing and then all the LU stuff being another.

There doesn't need to be any conflict. (if that is what you mean) Perhaps PM or email me some details on this...

I recognize that seeing happens when it does, but feel frustrated when it doesn't,

The frustration is about a story of expectation. The great part about it not happening is the opportunity for it TO happen. No mistakes = no learning.
Use the frustration as a trigger for the Recognition.

heavily protestant childhood history of squashing desire, there's a strong pull to break free from that squashing. any thoughts or advice on this?

Don't squash (easily said, but conditioning...) Use desire as a trigger for the Recognition. A different kind of story, but still story.

i guess that's why i wanted to start over.

Yes, i understand. i have been pondering this for two days and keep coming to the same 'place', which is "you can only lose your virginity once". Pondering still happening and something is formulating, though i don't know what yet. Be patient.
Thanks for the gratefulness. i don't take it personally, but do enjoy what i feel thinking of you feeling that as it's a positive emotion. Health giving.

metta

vince

[ixturtle]

how much do you believe that sense. Does it control you after you SEE it happening ?

sometimes yes, sometimes no. there's always that tricky moment for me when there's some recognition but still a storm of thought (like a tide) that says that if i don't act, i will be taken advantage of for ever and ever and ever... a story that's hard for me to resist.

Use desire as a trigger for the Recognition.

Can you speak more to this? Maybe offer an example? Or maybe I'll try here:
conditioning says "I want X"
conditioning also says, "you can't have that" (maybe for moral reasons, maybe for consequences, usually both)
recognition says, "gee, that's a whole lot of story, all based on a "me" and the assumptions of "lack" and the possibility of "fulfillment/guilt/disappointment in the future."
meat sack does whatever it does or doesn't do, but perhaps with a little less conviction/energy behind it...

yes? additions?

[vinceschubert]

sometimes yes, sometimes no. there's always that tricky moment for me when there's some recognition but still a storm of thought (like a tide) that says that if i don't act, i will be taken advantage of for ever and ever and ever...

There can't possibly be some recognition. The nature of recognition is that it is either there or not there, period. What (most likely) actually happens is that there is recognition, but it it dismissed. The weight of the story has you ignoring it. If this happens repeatedly then it becomes a conditioning. (story of bad here). An alternative approach to this might be to willingly accept the weight of story as something that you will continue with, and recognize that you are putting the recognition aside to do this. Still reward the recognition with a chuckle and actively say to it "thank you, but wait in the sidelines while I indulge in this story". This way de-conditioning still continues. As "everything is as it IS", there is nothing wrong with 'choosing' to stay indulged in the story. If you recognize that this is what's happening, it is much more likely to dissipate.

On the wish to "start at the beginning again", it occurs to me that this is a desire to re-commit, to overcome the familiarity (staleness) that has developed. Perhaps a thought that something different needs to happen to 'get there'.
Someone who recently went through the 'gate' in a similar fashion to you and Rose, has found themselves deep in, what is commonly known as a "dark night of the soul". i hasten to add that they are quite OK with this, but it is a major disruption of their psyche, and may well explain the reluctance to take the 'final step'. It is a rebirthing process. A major elimination of a lifetime of accumulated crap, and very intense, but behind/beneath it is a knowing that it is ALL ok. No desire to stop it.
Will you write me a paragraph long story on how starting again, on re-commiting might get you 'there'.
Have you ever done Tai Chi ?

Use desire as a trigger for the Recognition.
Can you speak more to this?

Desire, like beliefs and opinions are a direct link to an existing story. The moment you say "I want..." or "If only...", you know that there's an existing (possibly unconscious) story. The point of recognition reward is to develop the alternate response to indulging mindlessly in story. The simple SEEing that it is happening or about to happen can be enough (unless the weight of story is like we spoke about above) to evaporate it.


love

vince

[ixturtle]

An alternative approach to this might be to willingly accept the weight of story as something that you will continue with, and recognize that you are putting the recognition aside to do this.

Conditioning says yes to this intention, though it's starting to feel fuzzy about this term "recognition." Are we simply saying that we recognize that there is a story present that is overlaid on top of what is, or are we saying something more than that?

As for re-committing...

I know there's nothing I can "DO" to get "THERE". I do feel things evolving slowly in their own sweet time. I have no context for my own personal version of the dark night of the soul so I don't fear it. Once a year or so I do have short (12-24 hour) melt downs that feel like a complete rejection of life itself, but they feel very child like-- no particular transcendent emptiness quality or whatever. So dark night of the soul? Bring it on, my head says, if that's what it takes. Saying that though, seems contrary to my whole life's preference for slow and soft and steady. So maybe that's what here: slow and soft and steady and that's what will continue as long as it does...

I think i have a little story about this string because I'm feeling rather exposed-- there's so much personal detail here that I never imagined would be here when I started this process. In the land of "nothing's personal" that's no big deal. In the land of my day to day life, this mind sack would prefer to be a little more anonymous. If we started again, the string would get buried under the mass of digital consciousness processing into oblivion. Of course, I can recognize all this as the story of the moment (which is what I've been doing for the last few months)...

Have had the opportunity to work a bit on the desire thing the last day or so. I think the "I see you and please wait" is a good idea for the moment as the squashing tendency is so strong. So far there's been a lot illuminated/shifting in personal relationships which feels like a move towards clarity, honesty, etc.

[vinceschubert]

Are we simply saying that we recognize that there is a story present that is overlaid on top of what is, or are we saying something more than that?

Yes, something more.. Recognizing (with a aha!) that there is believing of the story, and that the belief evokes responses that affect our life-ing.

I have no context for my own personal version of the dark night of the soul so I don't fear it.

Yes, it wasn't part of the experiencing here either. (though i did go through it years ago with psychodrama and gestalt therapy and encounter groups)

I know there's nothing I can "DO" to get "THERE".

This is a somewhat interesting one. DOing stuff most certainly distracts, diverts, inhibits the 'getting there'. Knowing that there is nothing you can DO, and 'letting it BE', certainly opens and welcomes the 'shift'. A kind of 'not doing' doing.

I do feel things evolving slowly in their own sweet time.

Good, although all of this is a lead up to the moment of something 'shifting'. (even though that moment might be so subtle that it is not noticed - as happened here. i can only pin it down to a two day time period)

would prefer to be a little more anonymous.

This is why i invited you to PM or Email the work stuff. If you wish we can go private by Email or PM any time. ..or a mix.

as the squashing tendency is so strong.

Squashing is very destructive. That's the stuff that end in the lid being blown off or dis-ease. Either way it will out eventually.

there's been a lot illuminated/shifting in personal relationships which feels like a move towards clarity, honesty, etc.

Excellent. This is often the hardest to SEE.

love love

vince

[ixturtle]

Yes, something more.. Recognizing (with a aha!) that there is believing of the story, and that the belief evokes responses that affect our life-ing.

This is a helpful distinction/clarification... thank you.

DOing stuff most certainly distracts, diverts, inhibits the 'getting there'. Knowing that there is nothing you can DO, and 'letting it BE', certainly opens and welcomes the 'shift'.

OK. Sooo... one conundrum of late is my sitting practice. For a while since LU it fell away all together which offered a lot of space to simply see what happened instead. That said, taking time for stillness does seem to support a more balanced and happy me. I've picked it up of late-- in a fairly loose form, stillness & quiet, without much focus or efforting-- in part because it seems like it keeps my heart/mind healthy in the way that eating a carrot keeps my body healthy and in part because I talk a lot about the benefits of commitment to practice and there's a feeling of inauthenticity to say this and not do it. But the nuances of "sitting to achieve something" are right there on the edge ready to creep in. I imagine meditation (as well as anything) can include "letting it BE" and vice versa, provided that it isn't reinforcing a story of the opposite. Thoughts?

I did notice that for the last few days there was more ease with seeing this meat sack as a bundle of conditioning. Nothing major, and the distance there didn't seem to translate into unifying the meat sack with any/everything else. It was just that the meat sack seemed less personal. (I guess that self/other unification is one big piece that "appears" missing to me.) Anyway, even the slightly impersonal quality doesn't seem quite as accessible today for whatever reason-- perhaps being back in the classroom tends towards taking "myself" more seriously. That said, I find myself more able to meet whatever is showing up with more ease and less judgment which is something.

OK-- enough for now.
Peace brother,
ix

[vinceschubert]

a fairly loose form, stillness & quiet, without much focus or efforting

This seems appropriate. You breathe, you eat, you walk, you meditate. No difference. Meditation seems to be result oriented, but it doesn't have to be overt. Knowing carrots are good for you brings an attraction to eat them, just the same for meditation. It seems a 'special' time here when i meditate. Seems good for me. Story maybe, but so is the idea that carrot is healthy. (as far as experiencing is concerned)

perhaps being back in the classroom tends towards taking "myself" more seriously.

Then it's a great chance to notice, to SEE that happening. No need to change anything (intentionally). Just an opportunity to recognize how story creeps in when things get busy.

peaceful here, thankyou.

love

vince