who would like to guide me?

[odemira]

Hi Liv,

So you want to let the expectations go - good. So just look at each one you have written, sentence by sentence, and see where they come from - do they come from the 'I'? Are they simply thoughts that arise? Or are they anything else?

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

hello annie :)

thank you for your post!

do they [each of these statements below, sentence by sentence] come from the 'I'?

[or]

Are they simply thoughts that arise?

:

1) i expect from the disappearance of the sense of self the experience of the dissapearance of the sense of self, the experience that there is just experience, happening to no one, the dissapearance of there being someone that is suffering, a letting go into what is in the moment without resistance to what is happening.

2) I don't expect it to make suffering worse.

3) I want that it doesn't matter anymore that my life seems to mostly consist of suffering and problems and emptyness and purposelessness and void of perspective and direction and a feeling of inability to do anything and a feeling of disconnectedness to everyone and a sense that there is no place in the world for me, i want that all this feeling is truely ok as it is and that it is clearly experienced that there is no one there in fear and panick and suffering about what is.


4) I don't want to be more confused, suffer more, feel more abysmal emptyness and purposelessness and void of perspective.

5) i don't need them, i wish to let them go, expectations are not useful, in contrary. They seem to block or contract openness to what is.

1) Ok, I just went through the first block..first of all it felt like, „this is past“, and then , that it feels like reading a statement, but it's not „my truth“ it is not describing my feelings now“, and furthermore, „there is no more belief in this statement“; so that the primary impression of reading the statement is that of simply reading words, without them having any clout. That is when i read them being just here now without going into memory of what i was feeling like when i wrote them. Because when i wrote them, they where describing my feelings and my beliefs. However i don'r really want to go into memory of that either because it was painful.
So i cannot say neither that they come from the I or that they are thoughts that arise, because they are words on the screen that i was reading. However i can say, that they do not feel that they speak for me now.

2) it's like reading a sentence in a novel. It feels like it has no connection to me now, no expression of this moment.

3) it's almost like, i don't wanna go there anymore into that pain. What i wrote there does not matter to me now, because right now, i am just here and there are no such thoughts in my mind and they are not believed right now either.

4) right now this does not matter, this is not a fear i have, or a fear that is present or believed. It's just what is right now and i am reading these statements, that do not speak for me now.

5) „i don't need them, i wish to let them go, expectations are not useful, in contrary. They seem to block or contract openness to what is. „
„i do not need them“, this sentence feels true. There is no wish here and there is no feeling that i should avoid anything either. Right now there is no struggle with expectations, there is no blocking or contracting of openness felt, it is what is. Again, i am not imagining what it was like when i was writing the words and when they described what i was believeing and feeling, but just i i feel and what thoughts are coming in, reading this right now.

So i don't know whethere they came from the „I“ or whether they where just thoughts arising, because in order to investigate that i would have to go back into memory and remember those thoughts and feelings as they where believed. But there is no impulse to do that right now, perhaps also because i see no sense in doing that. Correct me if i am overlooking something.

But i can ask that question right now: are these words that i am writing now, the flow of thoughts and words and feelings that is coming into writing now upon reading these statements, with the question quoted above in mind, is that coming from me, is it coming from an „i“ or are they thoughts arising?...


....thoughts arising

[odemira]

right, all just thoughts arising in the moment to no-one, yes?

It seems that when your emotions are calm, there is a realisation of there being no self present other than as the subject of a thought. But when the fear and emotions arise, they trigger the strong belief that these are 'your' feelings, that 'you' are suffering, they trigger the thought that 'you' don't want to go on. As an analogy it's like floating peacefully in space, resting in awareness - and then tumbling over the edge of a huge black hole of fear and despair. Once you've been sucked into it, it seems to take over completely for a time and creates a 'you'.

I am glad you've come out of this particular black hole, dear liv. It may well be that more black holes will appear - if you can question the thoughts as they arise as to "Where is this 'me' that fears, that suffers?" and really look into the emptiness, the total lack of any response, do you feel that maybe the black holes can gradually disappear?

Let's take the opportunity whilst in the calm stage to explore more of how the illusion of self is created, through some more experiences of 'direct looking'. Each time one of these experiments is done, the mind gradually notices what is really present, rather than what it THINKS is present.

So let's notice what is happening when feelings arise. Hunger for instance. What is felt? Where? Really notice the sensations. What thought then arises? How about thirst? Tiredness? Sadness? Fear? Write to me about these 5 in detail – what exactly is felt where in the body, and then what thought arises?

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

dear annie,

i just read this,

It seems that when your emotions are calm, there is a realisation of there being no self present other than as the subject of a thought. But when the fear and emotions arise, they trigger the strong belief that these are 'your' feelings, that 'you' are suffering, they trigger the thought that 'you' don't want to go on. As an analogy it's like floating peacefully in space, resting in awareness - and then tumbling over the edge of a huge black hole of fear and despair. Once you've been sucked into it, it seems to take over completely for a time and creates a 'you'.

yes, this is absolutely spot on. and i am just now in such a space, feeling that i don't want to go on. fearful and raging emotions are strong. but i know that it will subside again also. and i am ever more, ever so subtly becoming aware of these thoughts and feelings and how believing them shapes me experience. even when at times there is no such space there. there is just the rage, just the fear and the story, which seems so real. but then comes a breather of awareness again, it does not last forever. that stream gets broken when the story can truely be dropped, thoughts stopped and awareness can come through, even when ever so subtly.

interestingly the analogy you describe is exactly a dream i had the night before. the room i was in opened up behind me into infinite darkness. i was aware that i was in a dream and awake, i knew what it meant and i gladly let myself fall backwards into this infinite darkness and experience the falling totally consciously and enjoying the utter letting go and trust that was there to relax into falling into nothing. then thoughts kicked in, which where slightly suggesting fear and as the thought came in, it was entertained and with it the emotions of fear and immediately the dream reality changed and became exactly what i was afraid of. so the infinite space turned into an abysmal black hole, which again triggered more fear. it was like the emotions and the reality where one. and as the entertainment of thought brought in fear, awareness reduced into the background. and although there was awareness of this all, fear took over and had more impact, than awareness, which knows no fear.

the other thing that i noticed later, back in the waking world, is that even in the sequence when i knew i was dreaming and was awake in the dream and enjoying what was, and falling and trusting and letting go...there was still the sense of a me that was experiencing all this. i can tell the difference because i know what its like in dreams when there is no me that is awake.

[tsaheylu]

if you can question the thoughts as they arise as to "Where is this 'me' that fears, that suffers?" and really look into the emptiness, the total lack of any response, do you feel that maybe the black holes can gradually disappear?

when i'm in it (fear), the feeling is strong the belief is entertained that this might probably never end, i will suffer for the rest of my life.

when i'm not in it, i can even believe that, yes, by becoming aware of what i am thinking and not paying any attention to the story that it's suggesting, while feeling the senses, the fear will gradually dissolve into awareness. and adya shanti explains this in his book, falling into grace, that this actually happens. however it remains a belief until it is truely experienced. so far when coming through fear, by allowing and consciously feeling it without feeding it through story, i feel a relief; and it still keeps coming back ever as strong. so there is no telling wether it actually diminishes or just subsides for that moment.

when there is an inbetween state, there is the belief entertained as a possibility that it may go on and the fear may never dissolve and the sense of 'me' may never dissolve either, yet with the simple "tools" of not paying attention to the story and bringing focus into the body, feelings the emotions as physical sensations, that this will break the grip of negative emotion and fear and loosen it up to make it ok, and bearable for the moment. that its an ongoing practice, allowing myself to be able to live with fear and being ok. but this is not believing in freedom, and it does not feel free. but at least it feels like, ok, i can live with this.

at the same time you migt have noticed, that i did not use the wording "believe" but "entertained the possibility that the belief could be true". this indicates a little space of awareness even in the densest throws of fear...
the "not knowing" is stronger than knowing.

[tsaheylu]

notice what is happening when feelings arise. Hunger for instance. What is felt? Where? Really notice the sensations. What thought then arises? How about thirst? Tiredness? Sadness? Fear? Write to me about these 5 in detail – what exactly is felt where in the body, and then what thought arises?

gladly! i will take time to do this and then report :)

all my appreciation,

liv

[tsaheylu]

Hello annie :)

notice what is happening when feelings arise. Hunger for instance. What is felt? Where? Really notice the sensations. What thought then arises? How about thirst? Tiredness? Sadness? Fear? Write to me about these 5 in detail – what exactly is felt where in the body, and then what thought arises?

Hunger thirst and tiredness:

these sensations arose immediately and subtly and the body immediately moved towards satisfying them. It doesn't even seem that there is a thought „i am thirsty“, just a reaching for water, with appetite the same, there is just a movement into the kitchen, or a diving under my desk for a snack. It is a desire for ingesting drink or food arising within the region between mouth and stomach. Tiredness, the same, at some point the pull outwards to consume experience and do something subsides to the desire for sleep.


Sadness and fear:

sometimes the sensation arises first and there is an immediate story that arises with it and sometimes the thought is there first and the feeling comes with it. Sometimes it's both at the same time.

With sadness:
they are sad thoughts, thoughts of missing something, remembering something that had felt better than now and feeling the loss of that situation, thoughts of inadequacy, thoughts of hopelessness that i will ever not suffer and find joy in living, thoughts of being lost in total emptyness, thoughts of being all alone and not having connection to anyone, thoughts of being misunderstood, thoughts of wanting this suffering to end, thoughts of being totally redundant and without purpose, lost in space, thoughts that i will never be able to see truth and always be caught in story, fear and suffering....i could go on and on, these are just a few that arise every day and which seem to be subtly reeling continuously without even being aware of them, like a sublte hum in the background, that you get used to and don't actively hear anymore. Sadness is felt in the heart and gut.

When i watched a documentary yesterday and sadness arose for example whitnessing love between a couple or a father and his child, sadness arose and i noticed the thought was:“ i wish i had that experience“ and then the long rat tail that goes with it, i will never have that...etc. The rat tail does not come into conscious thought, but when i question, what is this feeling, what is it believing? Then a whole slew of thoughts underneath the surface one are revealed. Or when i saw in a documentary that someone was feeling good about what they where doing in life, the work they where doing, i sensed they know their place in life, again there is a tug at my heart and gut of sadness and the thought that i want that so much, but never had it and probably never will.

With fear:
This morning i woke up again full of fear. And as often first it is just a feeling that is all over gut and solar plexus, tight anxious knots, that exude fear. I can tell that these feelings are based on a conceptual framwork of thinking. The feeling is that i am afraid of everything, of life in general, which seems to be a dire situation.

It was like a vast continuously growing tree of fear. I could see all the detailed thoughts that induced fear, like branches, but they where ever replacable. When that one would be past, the next one would arise. And it seems clear that they are all living on a core belief and as long as that core belief is not truely seen as an illusion, or a lie, the branches would continue to grow.

I tried my best to drop thought and just feel the sensations. But sometimes this does not work, because the conceptual framework is strong and yet illusive, it's just there and i can't see the moment without that filter. And through that filter, when it is strong and the fear is strongly felt, there is nothing good in what is, what is, is more than undesirable, it's entirely dreadful. And then saying to myself, these are just thoughts, pulling attention to the senses...feels like it's fighting a hopeless battle, like treading water. The conceptual framework is stronger.

And then for a fraction of a split second awareness poking through the dark clouds of that conceptual framework: „there is awareness of this „conceptual framework“...and a whisper of a notion...that is where freedom lies...

but how to get there? How to grow this? How to fall into it and dissolve? How to become it? How to have awareness take over fully? How to truely experience that there is no seperate entity-me? Not just understand and know it as a concept? How to truely sense the illusory nature of the conceptual framework in which there still is a me struggling and suffering, afflicted with nearly everyone and everything?
How to wake up and see truth? So that the filter no longer has any clout?

sorry annie, it got a little caried away and emotional, which means its more to read for you...
i don't mean to do it like this. sometimes i am terribly long winded and get almost poetically emotional...
although i love it when i can cut through all the c**p, i just sometimes need some guidance through my
own jungle of thoughts...i welcome your machete :)

warmest regards and gratitude,
liv

[odemira]

Hi Liv,

One machete coming, with love...

Hunger thirst and tiredness: these sensations arose immediately and subtly and the body immediately moved towards satisfying them. It doesn't even seem that there is a thought „i am thirsty“, just a reaching for water, with appetite the same, there is just a movement into the kitchen, or a diving under my desk for a snack. It is a desire for ingesting drink or food arising within the region between mouth and stomach. Tiredness, the same, at some point the pull outwards to consume experience and do something subsides to the desire for sleep.

Yes indeed. Can you observe these 3 again, and notice in great detail what the actual physical sensations are that the mind labels as Hunger, Thirst, Tiredness? Let's focus on these first, before looking more into the feelings of sadness and fear, as these are accompanied with a lot more thoughts.

Thoughts just appear and disappear. Is there a 'you' that makes them do this? or is it just 'thinking' happening? Are they simply thoughts or are you giving them a label of being 'my' thought?

I tried my best to drop thought and just feel the sensations. But sometimes this does not work, because the conceptual framework is strong and yet illusive, it's just there and i can't see the moment without that filter. And through that filter, when it is strong and the fear is strongly felt, there is nothing good in what is, what is, is more than undesirable, it's entirely dreadful. And then saying to myself, these are just thoughts, pulling attention to the senses...feels like it's fighting a hopeless battle, like treading water. The conceptual framework is stronger.

And then for a fraction of a split second awareness poking through the dark clouds of that conceptual framework: „there is awareness of this „conceptual framework“...and a whisper of a notion...that is where freedom lies...

Liv, it's so painful being caught up in the conceptual framework - and the awareness of being 'caught up' and fearful and sad is just as present as the awareness of peace in the calmer times. Behind even the stormiest sky the sun is always shining. Check this out for yourself - when there is a feeling of fear, is there an awareness of that fear? If there is no awareness of what is being experienced, would there be any experience to be aware of? Can you see how experience and the awareness of that experience are indivisible?

but how to get there? How to grow this? How to fall into it and dissolve? How to become it? How to have awareness take over fully? How to truely experience that there is no seperate entity-me? Not just understand and know it as a concept? How to truely sense the illusory nature of the conceptual framework in which there still is a me struggling and suffering, afflicted with nearly everyone and everything?
How to wake up and see truth? So that the filter no longer has any clout?

Are 'you' in control of any of this? Or is it just thoughts that say you should be able to control HOW things happen? If you spend time outdoors watching the sky and the trees and the birds flying, are they trying to control anything? Sit and watch for a while, see what you notice.

It was like a vast continuously growing tree of fear

If I imagine there's a lion scratching and roaring outside my front door, that's fear, and it's imagination, just a thought.
If there really IS a lion outside my door, that's a danger, and action of some sort is required - and the body will do that automatically.
It can help get some distance from fears if you write them down, and then examine them with logic - are they a fear or a real danger?
Then ask each of the fears, What is it protecting?

i gladly let myself fall backwards into this infinite darkness and experience the falling totally consciously and enjoying the utter letting go and trust that was there to relax into falling into nothing. then thoughts kicked in, which where slightly suggesting fear and as the thought came in, it was entertained and with it the emotions of fear and immediately the dream reality changed and became exactly what i was afraid of. so the infinite space turned into an abysmal black hole, which again triggered more fear.

An interesting dream indeed! Seeing through the fears sounds key for you!

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

annie,

thank you so much for your post. beautiful pointing. i will take some time with it before i answer :)

love,
liv

[tsaheylu]

annie,

it's quite a list of pointers, so i'm gonna trickle in the answers as they come:

thirst and hunger:
i went on a long walk today and watched these two especially, when they came up.
with both it's hardly a physical sensation. first an image of food pops in and there is a want to consume it. the only physical sensation to hunger was salivating, when the image/want for food arose. the want is hardly physical, but it's still present like a magnetic pull towards that which is wanted, a strong desire. after a longer time had passed, there was also a slight weakness and loss of energie felt and an unease. as if the body didn't really need it but want it so much, that all attention goes to satisfying this want. with thirst it's the same, except that when its not immediately tended to, i start to feel a dryness and a contraction in my throat and mouth.

[odemira]

thanks liv,
I'll wait for the rest of your replies before responding further, happy looking :)
with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

tiredness:

the eyelids get really heavy, eyesight gets weaker, the body gets heavy, yawning, a magnetic pull, strong desire to go to bed, lay down and get some shut eye, to pull the plug and let all go, a longing for the thinking engine to stop. energy goes way down, breathing becomes slower and heavier.

[tsaheylu]

thoughts appear and disapear. i am not making thoughts appear and disappear. however i still get the impression that sometimes i am hopping onto that train and riding the hell out of it, it feels like it's an addiction that i have no power over to make it stop, the current being too strong and it doesn't feel good to fight it either, because it's clear that fighting it just revs up resistence and backfires, like the yo-yo effect in dieting. sometimes it doesn't let go, or i can't seem to let go, espacially when i am sleepy, or in the waking up phase in the morning. as if it takes a willpower to resist the temptacious draw into imagining. but also this is coming from resistance. also this is a struggle with what is, creating more struggle. it is ok. at some point it lets go. and it is seen in hindsight that there is nothing in it for me and that hanging out in fantasy-land leaves me feeling more empty and disconnected when coming to, into direct experience. throughout noticing this, it is also noticed that attention is truely much more attracted to beyond conceptual thinking and everything that points there.

[tsaheylu]

so it is thinking happening and an impression as if i had power over attention.

[tsaheylu]

are they thoughts or my thoughts?

they are thoughts, that appear. i don't make them. to the question "are they my thoughts?" , when looking in direct experience, there is no answer. in order to give an answer, i would have to refer to conceptual, abstract thinking and then i could come up with lots of angles, entertaining the possibility why they are or could be my thoughts. but this would be coming from story-line, imagination, not from direct experience. so there would be no truth in such an answer and it is not experience but entertaining thought.