Newcomer, welcome here

[Nick]

Everyone feels this fear, a worry that you won't be the same, that you'll become weird or stop loving the people close to you. This is all normal. This fear is a defense mechanism of the mind, it's fine, it's just doing its job.

So use the fear to help your looking. Let the fear rise up and don't hide from it or ignore it. Try to analyze the fear with a microscope and see where it comes from, see what's behind it. I can tell you that nothing will get worse from doing this process. Mark will keep on going just like he always has - after all, you're not changing anything. There ALREADY is no real Mark, and everything's just going along on its own.

Let's get back to our original line of questions - where do the thoughts occur? You have stated that "I'm not sure there is a "where". There doesn't seem to be." You also wrote that you can't find a thinker. Take some time to look again at thinking and describe what you find. Where are the thoughts? Is there a thinker controlling them? Is there some kind of internal experiencer "hearing" the thoughts?

Nick

[xthinker88]

So use the fear to help your looking. Let the fear rise up and don't hide from it or ignore it. Try to analyze the fear with a microscope and see where it comes from, see what's behind it. I can tell you that nothing will get worse from doing this process. Mark will keep on going just like he always has - after all, you're not changing anything. There ALREADY is no real Mark, and everything's just going along on its own.

Well, in this case the fears are contradictory. The one that this will work, the other that it won't. Fear seems to be in response to thinking about consequences of something. For example, a lot of anxiety yesterday about whether or not something would happen today. Something that I cannot control at all. As it turns out, it did. So the fear was for nothing. But even had it not, the fear still would have been for nothing.

Let's get back to our original line of questions - where do the thoughts occur? You have stated that "I'm not sure there is a "where". There doesn't seem to be." You also wrote that you can't find a thinker. Take some time to look again at thinking and describe what you find. Where are the thoughts? Is there a thinker controlling them? Is there some kind of internal experiencer "hearing" the thoughts?

Whenever I focus on a thought, it seems to disappear. The thoughts seem to arise randomly, on their own. obviously, some thoughts are connected to previous thoughts (a train of thought?) but others seem to be reactions to outside stimuli (look at her) or completely random (a tune from yesterday popping into my head). I must be the internal experiencer "hearing" the thoughts - because I can "hear" them.

[Nick]

Whenever I focus on a thought, it seems to disappear.

Yes, of course, because the "focusing" on a thought - this is also just another thought, and one thought replaces the other. Also, if I say "think about a banana", your supposed intention or decision to think about a banana is also another thought! Look and see if you can find an "I" as anything other than a thought.

Just as a side note on the question of location - I am suggesting to you that the thoughts occur in the same location that every experience occurs - RIGHT HERE AND NOW.

Right here as in right HERE in reality where it's all happening. You have called this "coming from nowhere" which is a very good description. Others say that thoughts are "everywhere", which is equally correct. Some call it an "infinte, zero-dimensional space", also true.

Right now, because that's all there is. Even memories are just thoughts, and these thoughts are not somehow existing "in the past". Memory is a thought, and the thought happens NOW.

But don't take my word for it. Look for yourself and see the experiences of thinking, seeing, hearing, all taking place RIGHT HERE AND NOW in reality.

I must be the internal experiencer "hearing" the thoughts - because I can "hear" them.

ahhh... now we have gotten right up against it!!

The illusion of a controlling thinker or "doer" is easily exposed. You are smart and you've seen right through it. Now the supposed self has retreated into the position of the "witness" or "experiencer" to take its last stand. This is like Hitler at the end end of WW2 - he's defeated and can no longer fight back, but he won't surrender. He retreats into his bunker, pretending that somehow everything will be ok, while the allied forces close in on every side (I watch too much History channel on TV).

So here's the question for today - when you look at something, can you find any real separation between the object, the seeing, and the witness of the sight? Same with hearing. If you listen to traffic sounds or fridge humming, is there a separation between the source of the sound, the "hearing", and the hearer?

Smiling,

Nick

[xthinker88]

So here's the question for today - when you look at something, can you find any real separation between the object, the seeing, and the witness of the sight? Same with hearing. If you listen to traffic sounds or fridge humming, is there a separation between the source of the sound, the "hearing", and the hearer?

When I look at the tree outside the window, it clearly is not "me" in the same way as this consciousness/ brain/ body unit is. It seems like a real separation to me. And of course physically I know that the image I see of the tree is due to the light reflecting off the tree, entering my brain through the optic nerve, and being interpreted by my consciousness.

[Nick]

Hehehehe, ok we shall see.

So you said "it seems like a real separation to me." thats actually exactly right. It SEEMS like separation. And it seems like this, when there is the belief that all this shit is somehow happening TO ME. you're brilliant mark!

So let's keep looking. So far you're doing great. Remember that this seeming I, this apparent entity is a structure made of thoughts as we established earlier. And thoughts can't think! Remember that there is no doer or controller, as we have shown. Youve faced fear and know how to deal with it. now you're face to face with this seeming witness or experiencer, and it's time to let go and allow this too to collapse. Just LOOK and try to find this experiencing witness, see if you can identify it or locate it. That's all there is to it. Really take a look and see if its really there or not. Don't give up!

keep looking at write at length, your posts have been getting shorter.

Nick

[xthinker88]

now you're face to face with this seeming witness or experiencer, and it's time to let go and allow this too to collapse. Just LOOK and try to find this experiencing witness, see if you can identify it or locate it. That's all there is to it. Really take a look and see if its really there or not.

It seems that the observer is just another layer of thoughts "commenting" on the regular stream of thoughts and perceptions. When I try to focus on the observer, he shuts up. Slippery fellow. I'm not sure though if I "see" this or if I am just following it intellectually and logically. 

I remember working with a kid once who could not seem to march. As we were cadets, this was a problem. I and a classmate worked with him for a while. At some point, it became obvious to me that he could not march because, in his mind, he had built up an illusion that said that "marching" is somehow a different thing than "walking". When, in reality, other than timing, marching is just walking.   We had him relax, pretend he was back home, and then walk. When I said "now turn left", he did. And that was the same thing as turning left in a march other than timing. Once the illusion fell away, he was able to walk/ march as needed. 

I'm wondering if it's possible to build up a similar expectation about this liberation experience. One that prevents the experience itself by making more of it than it is. Walking is actually an amazing feat - but it's still just walking and not something that needs to be thought about too much. 

[Nick]

^ Dude what an awesome post that was! ^

You're right on target. There are expectations, just forget em for now. Its so simple what we're pointing at here. All you have to do is chill for a minute, look at right here and now, and see if there's an "I" or not... I'm suggesting that there's not, and that everything is just going along doing its own awesome thing, including the world, animals, people, this body called Mark, and the thoughts and feelings that are popping up. These thoughts sometimes yell and scream "I" this and that and "mine, me, me, me, me" but seriously who cares?!

SOmeitmes people expect that seeing this is going to be like a magical mystical experience with lights and rainbows shooting out of your ass or something. BUT really the reason people laugh or cry when they see this is cos they just got the punchline of the greatest joke ever. It so simple it seems stupid. There is no me. For real. That's it. You can look back at all the drama and torment and realize that it was all unecessary but that also its not a huge deal, no matter how much time you spent in apparent misery... :)

So what do you think, Mark, is there a "you" in real life? In any way, shape, or form? Was there ever?

Nick

[Nick]

Mark,

You said in PM that you understand what we are after logically, but don't "see" anything differently. I appreciate your honesty. Understanding even a little bit of this stuff is huge, most people can't even begin to listen to the possibility that they don't exist, much less give it serious consideration.

The good news is that you are close. You have been at the Gate and the only thing holding you back is this clinging to intellectual crap. You don't NEED to think or understand. You just need to LOOK once to see it. Not in concepts, not as a cool story or theory or "enlightenment" event for other people, but to slap yourself in the face and see that this shit is REAL. this is about real life right here and now for you, mark.

Keep teetering on the edge. Keep looking. Get back to me when you're ready to jump.

Nick

[xthinker88]

I'm back. Feel like I'm no further along. Are you there?

[Nick]

I'm still here. You ready to continue with regular posts? Please give me a more detailed update of what's going on with your inquiry and where you're at.

Nick

[xthinker88]

I don't see any progress to speak of. Still can intellectually assent to the concept of no-self but do not see it. Concerned that i don't really know how to look. That what you mean by looking is somehow not what i am doing.

[Nick]

Mark,sorry its been a while I've been moving across the USA 2000+ miles and just got Internet service today.

That's not exactly a detailed report after two months! Rather the opposite.
You said you understand and accept it, but don't see it.
Well I can't show it to you. You have to LOOK for yourself. And yeah you are doing it already, just relax and let it happen.

Look around, check out how there's no physical barrier or boundary that separates "you" from "the world". There's a thought that you are inside and everything else is outside, or that you are the center of everything. But look with your eyes and see if you can find the actual dividing line in reality. What would be different if there were no belief in this division?

Nick

[Nick]

Mark,

You contacted via PM, expressed interest in looking some more. That's cool, this curiosity that won't let you go. It's like once you start to look, it's inevitable. Lets get it done.

You asked me in your pm if liberation really helps with fears, anxiety, other unpleasant emotions.
The short answer is no. These things don't go away. But there's another way of looking at them. In 100% honesty, this thing we call liberation has radically transformed the way that "I" experience life and the world. I wouldn't give it up for anything. Why don't you just do it and find out? Nothing bad will happen.

Take a look at my last post from October. Try this visual exercise. Let me know what you see and how it feels. Write a lot, give me a full update.

Nick

[xthinker88]

I've been doing that exercise. Looking for the barrier separating me from the world. It's interesting in that such a barrier is obviously not visible. I've even noticed that if I hold my hand out in front of my face, my hand does not really appear to be "me" any more than the bookcase in the background or the tree out the window. Intellectually of course i know that that hand is mine in a way that the tree outside is not. But when I'm just looking at it, there is nothing to indicate that. It is just another object in my field of vision. Naturally though if someone took an axe to the tree, that would feel different than if they took an axe to my hand. But, just by looking, there doesn't really seem to be any difference between the two in terms of their relationship to me. It's only by memory or other sensations that I know there is.

I'm not sure if this is the kind of looking you are indicating but I've been doing this on and off now since Thursday.

Mark

[Nick]

Intellectually of course i know that that hand is mine in a way that the tree outside is not. But when I'm just looking at it, there is nothing to indicate that. It is just another object in my field of vision. Naturally though if someone took an axe to the tree, that would feel different than if they took an axe to my hand. But, just by looking, there doesn't really seem to be any difference between the two in terms of their relationship to me. It's only by memory or other sensations that I know there is.

yeah, good observation.

Consider this: when you look at your computer or your coffee cup or whatever, what is it that makes it "my computer" or "my coffee cup" rather than just "a computer" or "a coffee cup"?

Your hand is the same. What makes the hand yours and the tree not yours? Is there a little guy inside that controls the hand? Is there a little guy inside who says "ouch" when the hand is hurt? If the hand is cut off from the body, is it no longer yours? If we keep removing pieces and limbs, etc, where do we find the mysterious little guy? How is "your body" defined as opposed to everything else?

Nick