Thread for Luke

[Luke]

Hi T

Ok, good – the bit in bold: this is a passing experience, but it’s important to ‘note’ that as authentic – that’s how it really is. You won’t experience this all the time, but such experiences are sufficient basis to gain confidence in the absence of self / separation.

Yes, they do help gain confidence….but until reading this last post, there was a sort of anxiety about losing it or frustration that it had not happened for a while. Think that’s changing now. Thanks for your clarity on this issue.
As an aside, I have noticed in meditation that the duality seems to be to do with thinking and awareness. Its like thinking identifies with awareness or says ‘this is inside this is outside’, this causes the bending effect. But also that there is a sense that thoughts no experience, which gives the impression that the thinking activity is inside knowing what is outside, but getting much more of a sense of how thoughts no nothing and are just part of the fabric of experience. But this tends to only be clearer in meditation.

Yes, again, (and repeating what I’ve said already) that recognition (bold bit) is enough. Recognise that the sense of ‘dividedness’ is just a particular set of sensations and a mental interpretation going on ‘divided’. You could say that there is just a particular kind of experience arising, which is associated with ‘dividedness’.

This is great..its hard to explain how this changes things and really challenges a view that’s been persisting. Its like there has been a belief that yes, there have been moments of seeing no self. But…then there is dividedness and that dividedness is self. So its like a partial acceptance of there being a self. As Metta put it to me a few weeks ago ‘your non-existent self is playing a game of hide and seek’. So it’s like I was able to keep the self in play by not acknowledging what you are saying here, which is that even in dividedness, there is still no me!
Its very connected with your earlier advice that ‘just because it feels like a self, doesn’t mean it is one. The existence of the divided state was considered ongoing evidence that there was a self, with the expectation or view that insight involved an complete elimination of the any further division. Hope this is making sense.
The effect of this is very gentle, subtle. Like a sense of despondency, resignation, acceptance, like the self cant find a an avenue to keep ‘me’ convinced, there is no fire works but something feels like its shifting.

But open to it – is there any actual ‘boundary’ to be found in that direct experience?

Cant really find a boundary no. But am wondering what would that boundary be between, between what and what? But the experience of dividedness is still different to what I have been calling an undivided state. Yet this so called divided state, is not really divided when you look at it.

There is a sense of certain mental states (associated with stronger division) aren’t a problem, they feel lighter more transparent and less me. Experience feels like its saturated with awareness from top to bottom, its like this awareness is the no one here awareness, if that makes sense. This is whether there is a ‘divided’ experience or not. In a way I am beginning to be less sure what being divided really is if in fact there is no real division.

On the contrary, when it’s known directly that there is ‘no self’ (i.e. what might be called an ‘insight experience’), fear is very common. It comes from the deep mental-emotional holding to the notion of ‘me’ as some kind of really existing thing. Just recognise that this is the deluded mind doing what it does – it’s happening, but don’t give it any credence or even any particular attention, let it arise and notice that it passes.

Yes, this tapped on another strong view that’s being unhinged. Which is probably more of what I said above. I have been taking the presence of fear or anxiety in insight practice to mean that the self must have not been seen through and in this way demeaning the experiences that have taken place over the last 17 years.

Interestingly there has been even more fear and anxiety this last 24hrs, but that feels more OK. Still it doesn’t feel nice and there is an urge and a story that wants it to go away!

Thanks for taking the time to respond in such a clear and precise way, it really hits the nail on the head so to speak,

Luke

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

like thinking identifies with awareness or says ‘this is inside this is outside’, this causes the bending effect. But also that there is a sense that thoughts no experience, which gives the impression that the thinking activity is inside knowing what is outside, but getting much more of a sense of how thoughts no nothing and are just part of the fabric of experience. But this tends to only be clearer in meditation.

Good - keep looking at this until it’s quite clear in or out of meditation. That doesn’t mean it has to be equally clear all the time, just that it’s ‘known’, so that whenever attention is brought to thinking, it’s obvious that thinking is arising in awareness, and not vice-versa, and that thoughts are perceived, not ‘perceiving’ or ‘the perceiver’.

could say that there is just a particular kind of experience arising, which is associated with ‘dividedness’.

This is great..its hard to explain how this changes things and really challenges a view that’s been persisting. Its like there has been a belief that yes, there have been moments of seeing no self. But…then there is dividedness and that dividedness is self. So its like a partial acceptance of there being a self.

Well this very probably is the nub of it. Now, just look again – can you find any dividedness / separate self anywhere, anytime? If it can’t be found when looked for, why should it be supposed that it’s ‘there’ when not looked for (e.g. when the mind is ‘occupied’, or rather, when awareness is occupied with the mind). As I said before, the sense of ‘dividedness’ is just a particular state of mind/body, which the mind labels ‘self’.

Its very connected with your earlier advice that ‘just because it feels like a self, doesn’t mean it is one. The existence of the divided state was considered ongoing evidence that there was a self, with the expectation or view that insight involved an complete elimination of the any further division. Hope this is making sense.

It makes sense to me! Now, look at whether ‘you’ can uphold the belief in a separate ‘self’ existing under any circumstances at all. Is it not just an imaginary entity, and imaginary ‘problem’?

Cant really find a boundary no. But am wondering what would that boundary be between, between what and what?

Primarily a boundary between ‘self’ and ‘rest of the world’. Does the direct experience of the body as tactile sensations have an edge? Is there any experiential distinction between sounds ‘in here’ and ‘out there’ – are they arising in separate ‘spaces’? And so on for the other senses.

There is a sense of certain mental states (associated with stronger division) aren’t a problem, they feel lighter more transparent and less me. Experience feels like its saturated with awareness from top to bottom, its like this awareness is the no one here awareness, if that makes sense. This is whether there is a ‘divided’ experience or not. In a way I am beginning to be less sure what being divided really is if in fact there is no real division.

Mental states are only a ‘problem’ if you believe the story they tell. Yes, keep ‘attending to awareness’ and noticing the ‘no one here’ about it – good stuff.

Being ‘divided’ is simply the mind saying ‘I’m in here, that’s out there, separate’. There is no actual division or separation.

Keep unhinging those views; keep looking!

T.

[Luke]

Hi T

Good - keep looking at this until it’s quite clear in or out of meditation. That doesn’t mean it has to be equally clear all the time, just that it’s ‘known’, so that whenever attention is brought to thinking, it’s obvious that thinking is arising in awareness, and not vice-versa, and that thoughts are perceived, not ‘perceiving’ or ‘the perceiver’.

This is reasonably obvious now when I sit. Thoughts feel perceived generally. Sometimes I wonder if its just that after doing a days mental work, energy collects around the head, but its not an identity.

The sense of a perceiver, feels more like subtler thoughts at the back somewhere, but its possible to see through this in meditation. Consciousness transforms or flips when this happens, but the effect of this is less with familiarity. Its also like emotions have to e adjust to it. But of course it can then fade. But that's ok.

Well this very probably is the nub of it. Now, just look again – can you find any dividedness / separate self anywhere, anytime?

At times allowing divided ness to just be experienced, gives a sense of how it's all just part of the fabric of one experience. A separate sense of self can't be found when looks for, or often when simply aware.

If it can’t be found when looked for, why should it be supposed that it’s ‘there’ when not looked for (e.g. when the mind is ‘occupied’, or rather, when awareness is occupied with the mind). As I said before, the sense of ‘dividedness’ is just a particular state of mind/body, which the mind labels ‘self’.

Agreed. Getting a sense of it not being there even when not looked for, like when busy at work. This sense of inseparability from awareness has felt freeing at times,

There feels like moments when the sense of there never being a self is sinking in.

It makes sense to me! Now, look at whether ‘you’ can uphold the belief in a separate ‘self’ existing under any circumstances at all. Is it not just an imaginary entity, and imaginary ‘problem’?

Mmm...are there any circumstances in which the belief can be upheld? Never in direct experience....the sensations of selfing often just seen as that..but occasionally bought into, which fans the fires of the belief for a short time. But that belief is a sensation not a self. Although selfing isn't self, it continually infers one. Usually there is sufficient awareness to ignore or not believe the inference. Occasionally there is buying into. But reflecting on this now and looking...that whole buying into process just happens without a separate me doing it.

An imaginary problem? Sense of this being so comes and goes.

Reflecting on this later on in the shower, felt this question comes to the heart of it. Is there actually a self, is there a real problem here. When I ask this something hesitates, all the evidence says there is no self here, yet something hestiates and wants to suggest there is one. But then I noticed that this hesitation or doubt, was its self just selfing. More thoughts and emotions, it occured to me that if asked will 'selfing' ever tell me the truth! I noticed awareness on the other gives a clear no it doesnt exist. Then there was the sense of the selfing as automatic and not me and my mind became very clear, the senses crisp and it felt very free.

Again, I was taking the appearance of thoughts and emotions that feel like a me to be evidence of one.

Primarily a boundary between ‘self’ and ‘rest of the world’. Does the direct experience of the body as tactile sensations have an edge? Is there any experiential distinction between sounds ‘in here’ and ‘out there’ – are they arising in separate ‘spaces’? And so on for the other senses.

No no edges. Sound is easiest, very clear. Body, there are mental maps or thoughts of boundaries, but these are seen as untrue fairly quickly. Vision, there are distances, a sense of space perceived but no boundary,all senses arising in the same space so to speak.

Being ‘divided’ is simply the mind saying ‘I’m in here, that’s out there, separate’. There is no actual division or separation.

Often none or very little of this when looking.

My sleep is has really gone up the shoot since starting this (same thing always happens on meditation retreats), stories then get generated around wether its 'good for me' to keep doing this. Perhaps it will settle at some point. Still, at the same time there is often an ease around it and a trust in experience or awareness or something (or nothing as the case may be).


Thanks again!

Luke

[Luke]

Hi T

I just had a question which may sound a little intellectual but which i realised was at the root of one of my views.

You have mentioned that self referencing emotions and thoughts or selfing still occur after the gate. Part of what I had previously learnt was that craving and aversion had as their cause ignorance (or belief in a self). This I think has been part of what has set up the expectation that selfing does not occur after that gate. Because if there is no ignorance (belief in a self) then there is no cause for them to arise. But apparently they do...

One answer is that its just habits that carry on, but how can those habits arise at all if there is no self view in there somewhere?

Hope the query makes sense,

Thanks

Luke

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

I’ll just look at your more recent question first.

This I think has been part of what has set up the expectation that selfing does not occur after that gate. Because if there is no ignorance (belief in a self) then there is no cause for them to arise. But apparently they do...

One answer is that its just habits that carry on, but how can those habits arise at all if there is no self view in there somewhere?

This expectation is very common, and wrong. The gate is seeing through the self-view, not the end of all habit-energy or ‘selfing’. Before the gate, it’s like we see everything upside-down. The gate is seeing it the right way up for the first time – no ‘self’, no ‘separation’. Seeing things as they are in this way means that the habits that the deluded view gave rise to are no longer fed – but there are a lot of deep habit-energies and they don’t just disappear, more they run out of ‘fuel’ and eventually wither.

Now, going back to your earlier post:

At times allowing divided ness to just be experienced, gives a sense of how it's all just part of the fabric of one experience

Great – keep looking like this.

This sense of inseparability from awareness has felt freeing at times

Again – keep looking in this way.

Mmm...are there any circumstances in which the belief [in separate self] can be upheld? Never in direct experience....the sensations of selfing often just seen as that..but occasionally bought into, which fans the fires of the belief for a short time.
Direct experience is all that matters! Ignore what the mind has to say about this completely! The mind will never understand.

An imaginary problem? Sense of this being so comes and goes

Again keep looking in this way. You’re on the right track – in fact you’re almost there.

When I ask this something hesitates, all the evidence says there is no self here, yet something hestiates and wants to suggest there is one. But then I noticed that this hesitation or doubt, was its self just selfing. More thoughts and emotions, it occured to me that if asked will 'selfing' ever tell me the truth! I noticed awareness on the other gives a clear no it doesnt exist. Then there was the sense of the selfing as automatic and not me and my mind became very clear, the senses crisp and it felt very free.

See my comment above. Awareness is direct experience – see that awareness knows whereas thinking just ‘thinks’ or ‘believes’

Again, I was taking the appearance of thoughts and emotions that feel like a me to be evidence of one.

Good – that’s seen. Just note: ‘this is how it really is (even when the mind says otherwise)’.

Vision, there are distances, a sense of space perceived but no boundary,all senses arising in the same space so to speak.

That’s it!

You’re virtually there. All that’s needed is to review, especially, these quotes above and see-know directly that this is how it is! Drop the doubts and quibbles, as that’s all that is holding you back.

T.

[Luke]

Hi T

Thanks for your message, just wanted to check in. I will respond to the points in your message more fully. If your away, it will give me a couple of days to really go into them.

There was a really long period yesterday where it was apparent there was no me anywhere, it was crystal clear. I was reminded of the Batman/santa metaphor, there was no sense of needing to look even, it was just a Santa-less room so to speak. Awareness was very crisp and still, it was deeply freeing. There was also no anxiety about prolonging it or any doubts at all.

Driving into work today, it was like going through an asteroid field of thought and emotion (selfing). But just letting it be, letting it burn its self out and once at work the clarity was back again, hanging out in the Santa less room.

Thanks

Luke

[Luke]

Hi T

the habits that the deluded view gave rise to are no longer fed’

When clarity fades a bit There is sometimes a buying into these states, then acting them out. Which I assume would feed them.

At times allowing divided ness to just be experienced, gives a sense of how it's all just part of the fabric of one experience

Great – keep looking like this.’

'Divided' experiences have lost that sense of feeling like the self is back, when switching to direct experience, there is no sense of self in them. There is still a getting caught in them but that's more like getting so caught up in a film you forget it's one, switching to direct experience brings back the sense of no self awareness.

This sense of inseparability from awareness has felt freeing at times

Again – keep looking in this way.

Yes, there is still more ease developing around what state is arising, though the preference for pleasant states keeps arising, the story of pursuing them..selfing tends to arise most when there is a strong unpleasant feeling. But as said above, even selfing is less like a self. It's a self sensation, but not a self. The getting caught in it is more like dreaming..automatic habitual.

Direct experience is all that matters! Ignore what the mind has to say about this completely! The mind will never understand.

Yes, trying to go with direct experience each time. Have been reflecting on wether the stories are true, there certainly usually painful. Usually noticing how the character doesn't exist. The story still runs, hurts even, but the sense it's character is non existent changes things.

An imaginary problem? Sense of this being so comes and goes

Again keep looking in this way. You’re on the right track – in fact you’re almost there.

When caught up in it again it doesn't feel imaginary, but this doesn't last long.

my comment above. Awareness is direct experience – see that awareness knows whereas thinking just ‘thinks’ or ‘believes’

Yes, when I can see this its freeing. Even when I can't see it, there is still sometimes a sense of things being that way.

You’re virtually there. All that’s needed is to review, especially, these quotes above and see-know directly that this is how it is! Drop the doubts and quibbles, as that’s all that is holding you back.

Yes, there have been so many doubts and quibbles, addressing them has made all the difference, but not feeling so much like they need to all be answered any more. Bouts of fatigue this afternoon, perhaps a resistance. Lots of stories, But exploring it in direct experience, no separate me or I.

Explored the fatigue a bit latter, noticed how it was resistance, thoughts and feelings of wanting to be a me or an I again, to be reinstated as before, sadness, anger...it came and went, fatigue improved. Left me less clear and a bit muddled.

A fear sets in that I don't have the mental energy to pursue this, as regaining clarity seems to require ongoing effort. Still, it generally feels like things have deepened. There is a fear of having to keep facing all the crap that comes up.

Some clarity returned a bit this afternoon, fatigue disappeared. Have fallen into that ' I have got it I lost it' dynamic again. Where if selfing is bought into, the mind begins to tell stories about how I never did see there was no me. It then feels like a me is operating. I can then look at that in direct experience, sometimes wrestle with it for a bit, not quite being able to see through it or sure how. But sitting here now asking is it separate in any way from anything else, no definitely not!

Re-reading this, the clarity of there being no self is very up and down, as i wrote different bits at different times.

Much gratitude and Thanks

Luke

[jowate]

Hi Luke

Awareness was very crisp and still, it was deeply freeing. There was also no anxiety about prolonging it or any doubts at all.

Awareness is always ‘crisp and still’ whatever is going on & prolongs itself effortlessly.

I suspect you’re still buying into a story that when it’s ‘clear’ or ‘still’ you’ve got it, and when it’s unclear and painful you haven’t. ‘Getting it’ is knowing that whatever is occurring – manifesting, appearing – there is never, ever any ‘self’ doing or experiencing it.

As you say:

When clarity fades a bit There is sometimes a buying into these states, then acting them out. Which I assume would feed them.

Buying into states, acting them out, feeding them is all just happening – no-one is ‘doing it’.

the preference for pleasant states keeps arising, the story of pursuing them..selfing tends to arise most when there is a strong unpleasant feeling.

This will always be the case: the ‘organism’ prefers pleasant states and apparent ‘selfing’ does tend to arise in relation to unpleasant ones … all no-self. Remember the basic reality we’re pointing to: there is no ‘self’, me, I, under any circumstances whatever, and never was.

A fear sets in that I don't have the mental energy to pursue this, as regaining clarity seems to require ongoing effort. Still, it generally feels like things have deepened. There is a fear of having to keep facing all the crap that comes up.

Resistance is not-I, acceptance is not-I, fear is not-I, happiness it not-I. Fatigue and all kinds of crap will come up and there will be resistance to dealing with it. Just recognise that it is all a story, none of it involves a separate, permanent, independent ‘me’. Again – it’s not about life becoming problem-free, it’s about seeing directly that there is no independent entity doing it or ‘responsible’ for it.

T.

[Luke]

Hi T

I suspect you’re still buying into a story that when it’s ‘clear’ or ‘still’ you’ve got it, and when it’s unclear and painful you haven’t. ‘Getting it’ is knowing that whatever is occurring – manifesting, appearing – there is never, ever any ‘self’ doing or experiencing it.

Yes your right. This has crept back in, the penny had felt like it had dropped on this point, thanks for pointing it out.

Yes, this brings a sense of everything being Ok. A sense of everything being just experience.

Buying into states, acting them out, feeding them is all just happening – no-one is ‘doing it’.

Yes, same as above.

This will always be the case: the ‘organism’ prefers pleasant states and apparent ‘selfing’ does tend to arise in relation to unpleasant ones … all no-self. Remember the basic reality we’re pointing to: there is no ‘self’, me, I, under any circumstances whatever, and never was.

Yes that makes sense.

Resistance is not-I, acceptance is not-I, fear is not-I, happiness it not-I. Fatigue and all kinds of crap will come up and there will be resistance to dealing with it. Just recognise that it is all a story, none of it involves a separate, permanent, independent ‘me’. Again – it’s not about life becoming problem-free, it’s about seeing directly that there is no independent entity doing it or ‘responsible’ for it.

Thanks, that’s very helpful.

If I check out any state. Like right now. There is movement, pulses of thinking, sounds, light. Various physical sensations some painful some not. Is there a me? Nothing is separate from any thing else, its all in the same space. Sensations themselves don't feel like a me, just non-personal awareness and sensations. So where is the me? Sometimes there is a sense of it happening to someone, but that can often be seen as a thought.

Thinking is a kind of narration to experience, that always assumes a person. The character in the narration is only inferred, he cant be found. Yet the story is magnetizing. There is this experience of not finding the character, yet the story continues to have this feel of being fact rather than fiction. It feels known that the self cant be found outside the story, but the story is compelling enough to give this ‘sense’ of a me at times.Like being lost in a film. But it can be like realising you are in a dream, but you cant quite wake yourself up from in it. Perhaps I am not trying to wake up from any story, but just to see if there is a separate identity anywhere in it?

The sums dont add up, cant find a me in direct experience, but it just feels like there must be something that hasnt quite been seen yet. When looking to see if there is a self. There is a sort of 'I cant find one but...' A sort of assumption one must be out there despite the evidence!

Thanks again for bearing with me on this,


Luke

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

The sums dont add up, cant find a me in direct experience, but it just feels like there must be something that hasnt quite been seen yet. When looking to see if there is a self. There is a sort of 'I cant find one but...' A sort of assumption one must be out there despite the evidence!

It's not a feeling, it's a view (thought): look at the doubts and beliefs. You've seen it - you know how it is. This is just the mind pulling you around by the nose. Let it go!

T.

[Luke]

Thanks T

This really bopped it on the nose...yes not a feeling a thought. The mind packed it in and was able to see it as belief and thought. Everything connected to everything else, event doubts not separate, deep sense of connectedness.

Like something outside me, claiming its place back, welcoming home, your comments speaking to 'it' not my mind...a sense of trust and scales tipping towards awareness.

Thanks

Luke

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

Excellent! Welcome home!

Ok, now if you could respond as clearly as possible to these questions - take your time, there's no hurry, but do make your responses as representative of 'experience now' / 'how it is seen now' as you can.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? How about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious?

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? Was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? What exactly happened?

6) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?

7) In the experience, is there an experiencer? Is it body that experiences or is the body the experienced?

8 ) What did you experience at the moment you saw through the illusion of self?

9) describe experience right now as you see it

T.

[Luke]

Hi T

Thanks for guiding 'me' back T! I would have been painfully chasing my tail for eternity....

Wasn't expecting to see these questions; fear came up. Like communicating the current experience would just affirm it all the more. Perhaps this is threatening. Some thoughts about 'Oh no what if I loose it', 'what if it does not last'. Also some fears about the potential for this guidance process ending. But these thoughts where just experience, there is sense of unlocated aware experiencing of everything that is untroubled. The scales still tipping in favor of awareness.

Then, when I stopped to read the questions, there was real pleasure and excitement about answering them, each one seeming to just probe the current experience deeper.

Do you want me to wait until I have finished all of them before sending, or just send them back one by one as finished?

Deepest gratitude,

Luke

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

Good response to the fear! Do send them bit by bit as you do them if you like. Yes, they are good questions to respond to - they will reflect back to you that the non-existence of Santa is really known! :)

T.

[Luke]

Thanks T, here are the my answers to the first two questions,

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? How about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?

Is there a 'me'?

No is the short answer. There is the thinking the word me when asked the question, but its just a thought which does not correspond to anything in experience outside the thought. What is experienced is just experience, pulses of different patterns of experience, aware experience. Even the thought its self, is this same aware experience. None of it corresponds to a me or I. It is almost hard to think of what a me or I is even. Other than just thoughts of me or I.

Was there ever?

Its not that there used to be a me or an I and now there isn't one. Its just that previously there was the belief in the I or me story that thoughts tell. These thoughts were taken to be more than thought and believed to possess and independent reality of their own. Now they are seen as just thoughts, another aspect of experience without indicating a separate I or me. What was previously called me was a process of belief or identification with I or me thoughts, a fixating or narrowing of perspective in to thought. But even this process of identification never actually contained any separate fixed identity; an I, me or doer.

is there anything that is separate from everything else?

Thoughts can suggest or assume separations. But in direct experience, these dissolve, no one thing can be separated from anything else, its all just aware experience. Absolutely nothing arising separately from anything else, just all one fabric of experience. All senses arising in the same space. This connectedness of everything is felt. Its this fact of experience that makes the belief in the separate I impossible. The label 'I' just can not fit this much broader and connected experience, the two just don't correspond. Its this that makes the I label finally feel like 'just a thought'. A phrase heard so many times, yet only recently understood.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

Its is belief in the the story of a me or i as true. This story occurs as thought and suggests a separately existing me or I. This belief in a self was deeply held comprising many assumptions about experience that were not true. Ultimately when direct experience is examined the story is seen as untrue, in that the self referred to can never be found. It is this reference to direct experience that that undermines these beliefs and exposes the truth that they are just thoughts and that the nature of this life is not an i or me at all, but aware experience spontaneously living.

When does it start?

The most honest answer is to say I don't know. Unexpectedly when 'I' put the question to direct experience, there was the sense that the illusion never started! It never truly happened, experience was just this way all along! Lol...but at the same time when thinking about the question, the assumptions and views that keep the illusion going, have felt like long held conditioned habits. These seem to go way back, childhood, past lives maybe, in truth I don't know.