ready to be guided

[Cam-RT]

Hey Arora, great to hear from you!

Lately, this looking has been sort of obsession for me..anytime any bit of spare time, I have been engaged in it..

Excellent! You're closer than you think!!

Most of the times this looking results in slipping out of thoughts and somehow feeling of awareness in the body..and thats where it usually ends..I'm curious to see how it is unfolding

There it is! Awakening boils down to being aware of this very moment,(Separateness is what gets in the way...Being at one with our selfs and with the moment is key here...) seeing that thoughts just come and go and are basically phantoms in a realm that will never co inside with this reality. Consider thoughts for reference purposes ONLY.
It's the realization that the mind thinks BUT these thoughts don't come from an illusory entity called a you...It simply doesn't exist!...No thinker just thought!!...It's better to be "caught in the moment", than stuck in your mind! ;^)

although there is a sensation of I doing the looking that I can not deny.

It's just direct experience that's all...Let go of the rest. It's really all just in your head!
No looker, just looking.

This is a weird but true analogy...Computers work in sort of the same way as we do, in that the hard drive is used for storage and recalling information. But the processing is done on the motherboard...All this is done in our brain yet we have been conditioned to believe that these two are separate, We in fact are one life amongst many...Not separate as everyone tends to condition us to believe. Every living thing (especially animals) are one; and a part of this Beautiful world we live, we all belong here together.

Tell me what it is you feel are thoughts or stories that point at a specific "you"?

[arora]

Hi Cam

Tell me what it is you feel are thoughts or stories that point at a specific "you"?

Had a feeling that it was an important question..tried to explore this as much as i could..
Now, trying to get a feeling of what you exactly meant by that...it seems to me it has been mainly the thoughts to do with 'I need to do this' or ' If I am not pushing myself to get this done this day or this week, it won't get done, so I need to go through my to-do list and do this, this and this'
It feels that these are the big portion of thoughts which refer to 'me' but there are other feelings which habitually feel mine, like 'I am bored' or ' getting lost in worry for future'; and then if I am able to remind myself these may not be mine, I can feel more centered ( i know it sounds like a typical seeker scenario of separating oneself from feelings but this is not my intention to try to separate the watcher, I take it as a reminder to look for 'feeler of feelings' ..I certainly accept the possibility that I could be wrong)

Many thanks and regards Cam, I always look forward to your reply.
Arora

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

Tell me what it is you feel are thoughts or stories that point at a specific "you"?

Well...I meant more like the "feelings" you mentioned that felt like there was an "I" somewhere behind certain thoughts...i.e. you said,"although there is a sensation of I doing the looking that I can not deny."
Remember the body is the slave to the mind, so it's believing there's something there...
Granted there's some re-conditioning after the seeing the truth, but once this is seen and acknowledged it cannot be unseen.

So let's go ahead and take a look at what you came up with here...

it seems to me it has been mainly the thoughts to do with 'I need to do this' or ' If I am not pushing myself to get this done this day or this week, it won't get done, so I need to go through my to-do list and do this, this and this'.

Who is "I" in those sentences?...Is there a doer? or is it a visualization of doing?

It feels that these are the big portion of thoughts which refer to 'me' but there are other feelings which habitually feel mine, like 'I am bored' or ' getting lost in worry for future';

"You" are not your thoughts, they play out like images in a movie, but once a distraction occurs they're gone. (At least until they return.) yet again their object is to "occupy" us not to defeat us...It's the "physical" connection your mind gives it that enables it's power over you...
Boredom, is wishing for something better to occur that in reality doesn't exist, where contentment is acceptance of what is...
Worrying, is like praying for something, that you fear or don't want to happen. Tomorrow is just a vision or a dream....Now is all we have.

Ego is obstruction.---Surrender is flow...Change what you can, otherwise go with the flow of the moment.
Wisdom comes from knowing the difference.

then if I am able to remind myself these may not be mine, I can feel more centered

Exactly! my friend, Just let go!...Not only is there 'no you', but there's no one in control either! It's just an illusion projected by the 'Self'.

( i know it sounds like a typical seeker scenario of separating oneself from feelings but this is not my intention to try to separate the watcher, I take it as a reminder to look for 'feeler of feelings' ..I certainly accept the possibility that I could be wrong)

GOOD!...Full Awakening comes from "non-separation". The body is one with the mind...(One Entity)
No feeler, just feeling...No watcher, just watching...
We are at one with every living thing in this universe...(This may sound corny but it's true when you stop and think about it...)Just like the stars in the sky...We're born, we live out our lives, then die...We all have this ONE SHOT.
Live your life like there's no tomorrow...No regrets.

Sandeep...Do you have any questions for me??

[arora]

Hi Cam
Obviously I have not yet come to see yet what you have been pointing to..so logical mind, perhaps in an attempt to hang on to some justification, comes up with a question that do you think some people are just cut-out to see this more readily than others, and I might not have a role in how/when this seeing can come about? Also, in your experience, what sort of percentage of people come to recognise this with pointing?

I sometimes dont answer/comment to your blurb is because I couldn't agree more with what you say and it takes me to a deeper place, but it is only when I am pondering over this and it doesnt become a spontaneous constant experience.

Another question is Cam, that would it be correct to say that an intermediate stage can be separating oneself from thoughts?
Kind regards
Sandeep

[Cam-RT]

Hello Arora...

Obviously I have not yet come to see yet what you have been pointing to..so logical mind, perhaps in an attempt to hang on to some justification

It's okay, upbringing or (conditioning) and ego do play a role in how hard one must push to fully see this shift or "trigger" that causes Awakening...Intellect has nothing to do in seeing this.

do you think some people are just cut-out to see this more readily than others

Personally, I became obsessed with this and told myself.."If this is the last thing I do before I die is, I'm gonna get this!" It took a few months but I felt the need to keep pushing...Desire is key, you've lived your whole life seeing things the way society would like you to believe...Open yourself up and let go, of all these thoughts and beliefs the mind clings to.

I might not have a role in how/when this seeing can come about.

There's no role required...Just the craving to see and realize the truth.

Also, in your experience,what sort of percentage of people come to recognise this with pointing?

Hmmm...60 to 75%? I would say maybe more. Some I've heard, have done so thru meditation yet, personally I don't meditate except for some mental relaxation excersizes that I do when the grandkids aren't around ;^)

Another question is Cam, that would it be correct to say that an intermediate stage can be separating oneself from thoughts?

Yes, but not if your at resistance with what is...That reenforces the illusion of self.

What is it, that you believe liberation will play in your life??

[Cam-RT]

Hey Arora...

Nick is ready when you are....

[Nick]

yup, I'm here. Please respond at will and we'll keep going!

Nick

[arora]

Hi Nick
Thank you so very much for taking over and accepting to guide me. Please let me know how you'd like to start/continue.
Sandeep

[Nick]

Hi Arora, sorry for the little delay. Lets get back to it. My style is a bit different from Cam's. I will ask you questions, you answer, and then we repeat with more questions. My goal is not to explain or teach. You are the leader here, and all the insight and understanding must manifest on "your" side, not from this "me" over here across the world. Haha. Also, please take a rest from other teachers, books, videos, meeting, etc. I noticed you writing about Tony Parsons and Sailor Bob a few pages back. Please forget that stuff for now.

Lets get started with a few quick questions to recap where we are at.
1. What are your expectations for this matter?
2. What do you think the "self" is, honestly? What's your experience like?
3. Do you control your thoughts?
4. Is there a thinker who "hears" your thoughts?

Nick

[arora]

Hi Nick
Cool, I am excited, & I accept your suggestion of taking a break from my routine dose of non-duality :)
So here we go:
1. My expectation is a sense of deep unwavering peace, getting rid of getting affected by routine ups and downs & possibly a bonus of new perception enabling to see often-described beauty & bliss in everyday life..and also maybe a sense that if there is a 'truth to be achiebed' , I wanna achieve it & be better than most.
2. What is self..now that is a difficult question because I noticed that my answers have been different on different occasions depending on my state of mind at that moment...so I'll try to be as honest as I can be at the moment. I like to believe logically that there is no self but experientially it feels like a voice in the head. I am a bit unsure what you mean by 'what my experience of self' is but if I was to describe its characteristics, they would be that it tries to direct or choose thoughts/actions but is only able to do occasionally. Secondly it usually feels like the one who would choose between the available options at any time after trying to weigh up pros & cons; so it's the chooser. However, a bit of looking has loosened this chooser concept a bit.
3. Hmm I have tried to look earlier & it seems like I don't/can't control my thoughts, but it feels so only when I am looking to see if I control them or not; not my continuous/ constant perception.
4. I think this can be a well put third characteristic of the self in my experience I was trying to describe- a 'hearer' which would distinguish between good/useful and bad/useless thoughts.

Once again, thank you for your guidance Nick :)
Regards
Sandeep

[Nick]

Hi Sandeep,

Thanks for your detailed reply.

I appreciate your honesty in answering #1. I can tell you that this type of fantasy is normal. When I honestly took stock of my own expectations I had to admit that I was hoping to become a "meditation master" and to gain "magical powers like Gandalf." (those are the exact quotes). Unrealistic thoughts and fantasies about what's going to happen are normal, but they're only getting in the way of our discovery.

So please, now that you have acknowledged these thoughts, can you take an objective look at them? What if these things will never happen? That's the first question.

The second question is regarding thoughts. Can you please try to find where the thoughts happen. In other words, what location is it where the thought occurs or is "heard"?

Nick

[arora]

Hi Nick

A little delay in replying was because of trying to look for an answer to give you for 2nd question. So here goes what I have come up with so far

Unrealistic thoughts and fantasies about what's going to happen are normal, but they're only getting in the way of our discovery.

Right..although I imagined that my expectations were quite realistic in terms of being peaceful and stuff but I am ready to be open to whatever it is and try to drop expectations. I suppose it would be hard to gauge if subtly this dropping is also expecting to get something out of it but I'll try my best.

What if these things will never happen? That's the first question.

So whatever happens, I am open to it.

Can you please try to find where the thoughts happen. In other words, what location is it where the thought occurs or is "heard"?

Hmm..i have been trying to look and still do not have a proper answer for you regarding a location..it certainly feels inside me but location- what habitually felt like inside head, has not been possible to verify this. To give you a bit more insight on my looking process- On certain occasions, I get sleepy or distracted looking for this; and on some occasions, briefly there s a bit of pause in thoughts, kind of pause in looking as well until thoughts come back.
Another little discovery is that thought occurs and is 'heard' or known and then 'I' try to look where it happened, as if looking was after the event and not while it was being heard.
So, will keep looking but that was it so far.
Kind regards
Sandeep

[Nick]

Right..although I imagined that my expectations were quite realistic in terms of being peaceful and stuff but I am ready to be open to whatever it is and try to drop expectations. I suppose it would be hard to gauge if subtly this dropping is also expecting to get something out of it but I'll try my best.
So whatever happens, I am open to it.

Perfect. Yeah just let whatever happens happen. When I look back, most of my expectations were unrealistic, but I'm not disappointed.

Hmm..i have been trying to look and still do not have a proper answer for you regarding a location..it certainly feels inside me but location- what habitually felt like inside head, has not been possible to verify this...
Another little discovery is that thought occurs and is 'heard' or known and then 'I' try to look where it happened, as if looking was after the event and not while it was being heard.

It might help to check out the other senses as well. Close your eyes and listen to some random sound. Notice how the thoughts "label" the sound with a description or concept. Don't try to stop these thoughts, but you don't have to believe them be the absolute truth.

Next notice how there seems to be a source of the sound, a transmission of sound through the air, and finally a hearer. Check out how this is also based in thought. Just listen for a bit and see if you can find out WHERE does the actual experience of hearing take place.

You can try this with vision too. Look at something and see if there is any real barrier or boundary between the object seen, the "seeing", and the seer.

Let me know what you think.

Nick

[arora]

Hi Nick

Just listen for a bit and see if you can find out WHERE does the actual experience of hearing take place.

I sat down with this a bit, a few times and although my reading suggests otherwise..my experience appears to be that hearing is taking place vaguely around the head area..perhaps space around the ears. Its certainly not around rest of the body, legs etc..so that s the closest I can describe it. I somewhat see that its not possible to separate into bits like object and subject but it is still in and around vaguely the organ sensing it. Similar with touch as well, if I touch surface of bed with my eyes closed, boundaries may not be locatable precisely but it still is around the area in space where hands are..

It s been difficult to even give you anything much about vision..almost like it doesnt make sense to mind..unsure what to look for.
Apologies if I seem slow in discovering what you are implying

Regards
Sandeep

[Nick]

Cool, Sandeep,myoe are doing it right. You are investigating and discovering that its maybe not exactly what you assumed it was... Keep checking that out. Is it possible that seeing doesn't occur in space, but rather that the thought or concept of space is constructed by seeing? Just some stuff to consider.

So back to questions. I'm saying that you don't exist. What feelings are coming up? How does it feel in the body? In the emotions? In thoughts? Be specific.

Nick