I would like a guide please

[mark_tywharton]

The game on this forum is to get three confirmations.

You have to convince the LU community that you passed through the gate, so...

A few more questions!

Then you'll get a badge :-)

1. When you say "I", what are you referring to?

2. Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?

3. Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

4. What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

5. Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

Outside of the LU questions, some others.

Talk about satisfaction as well please.

What were you seeking? (what was missing? as in what were you looking for to fulfill the desperate feeling of a need to be complete)

Are you complete now?

What did you have to give up seeking?

How does that feel now?

Thanks for your engagement

Mark

[mister]

1. When you say "I", what are you referring to?

This body.

2. Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?

There is only experience.

3. Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?

The body is an aspect of experience.

4. What did you experience at the moment you awoke?

I haven't awoken. It's more like just not believing I am anything.

5. Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.

It's actually been difficult. There is a lot of doubt about all this. It felt really important to see what was being pointed at here during this process. It's really obvious there's experience and obvious there's nothing here having it. But so what? There really hasn't been much difference between the period after seeing this and before. Maybe there is less of a sense that someone needs to be protected.

Talk about satisfaction as well please.

Totally not satisfied. But there is also no desire that needs to be satisfied. There is this total ignorance to what is going on.

What were you seeking? (what was missing? as in what were you looking for to fulfill the desperate feeling of a need to be complete)

The truth. I wasn't sure what I was looking for. There doesn't seem to be a sense of incomplete. There really is nothing missing. There isn't even dissatisfaction. There's just this feeling of bafflement.

Are you complete now?

No. The whole thing keeps going.

What did you have to give up seeking?

I don't understand this question.

How does that feel now?

I'm guessing I can't answer this question until I understand the previous.

Thanks for your engagement

Mark

Thank you very much for your time with this. I really do appreciate it.

[mark_tywharton]

You would have to feel complete to give up looking for something (seeking)

You need to give up seeking something to be complete

BUT - you can only give it up by being complete

Yes, it sounds utterly nonsensical

There is NO YOU that is separate from anything else

So there is ONLY completion

Nothing to do here

EVER

Life just happens

For no reason

For no-one

*smiling an impish grin*

[mister]

There was a misunderstanding of the words on my part. When you asked, "What did you have to give up seeking?" I thought it was an incomplete question. I thought it was the first part of a question. Something like "What did you have to give up seeking in order for such and such?" You weren't asking that. You were asking what did I possess that giving up seeking happened.

So to answer: There's just nothing missing.

How does that feel now?

Right this moment it feels peaceful.

The last post you posted brought on an intense emotional reaction. There was a lot of sobbing of gratitude. Now it's gone.

[mark_tywharton]

1. When you say "I", what are you referring to?

This body.

Go over this again.

Is there an identification with the body?

When you say "I" does it get felt as the body?

[mister]

Is there an identification with the body?

Yeah. It is part of experience but it seems more me than the other parts. I'm not sure why.

When you say "I" does it get felt as the body?

No actually it feels like a director of it's actions. Not all of them. It doesn't feel like it's directing the heartbeat. But it does feel like I'm the director of what I focus on and the hands typing somehow. This in spite of looking at this before. Maybe the body feels more like me because of the events inside it are felt to be directed by a me.

[mark_tywharton]

Follow this instruction carefully

Wave your arms around like a windmill

Before reading on, ask who is doing it?

Really think about it

Please take the physical action then look, before reading on

Okay, how was that?

Right, now the fun begins :-)

Hold on to your seat belt Dorothy (as they say in the movies)

Ready...

You think because 'where the body is' there was an instruction which initiated movement = there is a you doing it?

Where did the instruction come from?

From you?

Where are you?

From your computer?

So are you the computer?

The computer here?

So are you Mark Ty-Wharton's computer?

Or Mark Ty-Wharton?

Am I you?

There is a whole load of stuff in a dance but no-one is dancing.

There are no people in this game, only circumstances and happenstance.

Actions imply actors, so we put the character there as a scape goat.

What there REALLY is to be responsible for, is nobody runs the show!

It's all smoke and mirrors.

Now what's there to see?

[mister]

Follow this instruction carefully

Wave your arms around like a windmill. Before reading on, ask who is doing it? Really think about it

this body is obviously doing it. The guy in the adjacent booth isn't waving his arms. But is this body making it happen? There was an effort, a trying to make it happen. That energy was in this body. But what made the effort happen?

Please take the physical action then look, before reading on

Okay, how was that?

I don't know. There was the effort to act and the action. That was all I found. I couldn't find a who that made the effort happen.

You think because 'where the body is' there was an instruction which initiated movement = there is a you doing it?

Actually with the arm exercise there was only the action and the effort and maybe those aren't even two things. The instruction was on the screen, not in the body.

Where did the instruction come from?

The computer screen.

From you?

No

Where are you?

Behind the eyes.

From your computer?

Did the instruction come from the computer? Yes.

So are you the computer?

No.

The computer here?

No.

So are you Mark Ty-Wharton's computer?

No.

Or Mark Ty-Wharton?

No.

Am I you?

No.

There is a whole load of stuff in a dance but no-one is dancing.

Meaning making any of the stuff in the dance happen?

There are no people in this game, only circumstances and happenstance.

You're not calling human bodies people because there are a few here.

Now what's there to see?

Now I'm taking me to be what sees through these eyes. Is there anything there? There definitely is seeing happening which means there is this moving image. Is there a thing doing the seeing? No the seeing doesn't come from anything. The seeing is here. Does it go to anything? No it's just here. Okay.

[mark_tywharton]

Maybe every single thing that ever happened ends with THIS (what happens right now) as its cause?

So does anyone do it?

Or does everyone do it?

Everything?

If everything does it, then does any single thing do it?

What animates things?

Looking at things in general, is there something animating each individual thing?

Just keep looking to see what is behind all this.

Make sure not to use the imagination to create a thing that does it.

Simply look for the thing.

Each time you find something which appears as a tangible "doer" inspect it till it is no more.

[mister]

Maybe every single thing that ever happened ends with THIS (what happens right now) as its cause?

It's hard to account for everything but it's easier to see if there is a cause for a particular event. It was easy to see there was no cause behind the effort to wave my arms. The direction to do so didn't make it happen. The effort appeared out of nowhere. It was causeless.

So does anyone do it?

No.

Or does everyone do it?

No.

Everything?

No. Everything didn't make my arms move. The arms moved as part of everything.

If everything does it, then does any single thing do it?

Everything doesn't do anything. Actions happen as part of everything.

What animates things?

It looks like nothing. Things move according to their nature. Even that's not really true. Things simply move. It happens out of nowhere.

Looking at things in general, is there something animating each individual thing?

No.

Just keep looking to see what is behind all this. Make sure not to use the imagination to create a thing that does it. Simply look for the thing. Each time you find something which appears as a tangible "doer" inspect it till it is no more.

Okay. "Maker" seems like a better word. The thing that makes actions happen.

[mark_tywharton]

What "thing" Tom?

Can you find it?

[mister]

No. But maker seemed like a better name for it.

[mark_tywharton]

If it is not a thing taking an action then why should it have a noun attributed to it?

Explore "Everything happens for a reason" while thinking about "Who is it who decides on the meaning?"

For the next twenty four hours, each time there is an action, look behind the action for a doer.

Come back tomorrow and report on the facts.

Metaphorically speaking it seems as if you popped your head through the clouds and saw something?

Then thought "oh shit" and ducked down again :-)

What is really there running the show?

[mister]

It's not been quite 24 hours but I got school for the next few so here is what I found:


Is there a doer of riding my bike over here?
There was a body pedaling it. Okay but was there a thing telling all the muscles to contract and release and adjust to the image of the road? No, all that happened automatically.
Just ordered from the waitress. Doer there? Was there a thing arranging the words together? No. There was thoughts of what I wanted to eat. But did those thoughts of what I wanted to eat actually put the words that came out of my mouth together? No. It happened all by itself.
Drinking this water. Was there something pulling on the muscles of the arm or opening the mouth? No.
What about goals? What about actions with an intention? I ordered the food with the goal of eating something tasty. Was there a goal? There was the thought of eating it and feeling satisfied. Great. So there was the desire for that. Did the desire move the muscles of the mouth? No. Those happened on their own. It seems like there was an intent behind the action. Was there really? Even if there is would that mean there is a doer? First is there intention. There is desire for certain outcomes. Is there even desire? What is desire? A thought that you want to be real. What would the you be that wants? What is wanting? When a thought seems like it would be satisfying if it actually happens. Okay. So a satisfying thought of eating a burrito happened. But did that thought actually make the asking for food happen? No. So is there intention? Right now there is a desire to find out if there is intention. Okay and there is typing and comparing happening. Okay so intention is when the mind tries to assign what desire caused what action.
Actions happen by themselves. There was a lot happening in that last paragraph. I'll try to stay focused. So I just peddled my bike to the bus station. Was there a doer there? The body did peddle. Was there a thing that made it happen? No. Muscles tightened and relaxed all over the body and this directed the bike to the station. Okay. It seems like there is intention behind action. There is no causal link but there definitely was intention. Is there a doer of intention? It seems that in order to get clear if there is a doer of intent there needs to be clarity on what intention is. Right now there seems to be an intention to go to school tomorrow. There is no effort being made right now to make this happen but there is intent. It's not a plan because a plan can be there with no intention of following it. Goal would be a synonym for it. So it's a thought. There is the thought of this body being at school tomorrow. Okay. What makes it an intention though? Is there a feeling to the thought? I can have the thought of this body being in London but there isn't an intention for it to be there. It's really a guess. It's a guess that there will be effort made when it looks needed for a particular outcome to happen. Looking at the paragraph before about looking at an action was the same thing but looking backwards. It's making a guess about which desires directed effort/action that has already happened. So is there a doer behind a guess. No it's like thought. It happens all by itself. Nothing correlates the circumstances and draws cause and effect links. Circumstances happen and thought projects how they'll change.
Actions happen by themselves but the pattern is they follow thoughts that look satisfying. Intention is just a guess on what desire a particular action is directed by. Desires don't cause action in direct experience but there is a lot of circumstantial evidence that action is guided by desire. Even if desire does direct action there isn't any doer there. There isn't anything arranging thought and then making them look appealing.

[mark_tywharton]

Muscles tightened and relaxed all over the body and this directed the bike to the station?

How about muscles tightened and relaxed.

Circumstances happen and thought projects how they'll change?

How about circumstance happen and thoughts happen.

Do thoughts cause actions ever?

Explore further.