I Need Guidance

[lex]

Good to hear from you! And good that you took some time to delve into these questions, they are important.
Please try to post daily, though. “I don't know yet, I'm still investigating” is perfectly OK.

Can you give me one or more definitions of liberation? It doesn't matter if they are your own, but they should be definitions you agree upon, representing your vision on liberation.

I also want you to delve into this dissatisfaction, investigate it. You don't need to give me any details, but I recommend you meditate/contemplate upon it, which is just feeling this dissatisfaction, observe it: where exactly is it in the body. Best to do it with eyes closed and without distraction.
It could be useful to have pen and paper ready to make notes if some insight pops up. Whatever appears is between you and you, I don't need a report, but if there is anything you want to share: feel free.
Do it at least two times a day for 10 minutes, or longer if you feel you are on track of something interesting. Curiosity is a good tool here.

[lex]

“There is not much else to do, and I am dissatisfied with life.” - that doesn't sound like a burning desire for truth.
Can you sense the difference in energy with a statement like:
“What the heck, life sucks, Nothing to lose anyway, let's go for it”
?

And could you change your motivation into something like that, something more energetic?

Most people come to this forum after a long search, having tried many other ways, so when the gate is pointed out, they run for it. So the guide points and the client walks. In our case I have the feeling I'm dragging a dead body to the gate. That doesn't work. Even a zombie still knows to walk.

[Noobstorm]

“There is not much else to do, and I am dissatisfied with life.” - that doesn't sound like a burning desire for truth.

Ok, I will rephrase that. There is not much else I want to do besides searching for truth.

And could you change your motivation into something like that, something more energetic?

Yes.

Can you give me one or more definitions of liberation?

Seeing the self as an illusion/delusion.

I also want you to delve into this dissatisfaction, investigate it. You don't need to give me any details, but I recommend you meditate/contemplate upon it, which is just feeling this dissatisfaction, observe it: where exactly is it in the body. Best to do it with eyes closed and without distraction.
It could be useful to have pen and paper ready to make notes if some insight pops up. Whatever appears is between you and you, I don't need a report, but if there is anything you want to share: feel free.
Do it at least two times a day for 10 minutes, or longer if you feel you are on track of something interesting. Curiosity is a good tool here.

There is only the feeling in experience, but thoughts about it separate it; the feeling is happening to this organism (me).

[lex]

There is not much else I want to do besides searching for truth.

I see you took the dissatisfaction out. Phrased like this, it sounds even paler.
The reason I want you to focus on this dissatisfaction is that it is the only source of energy that I can discover in you, so don't throw that away. Cherish it. Use it as fuel.

And could you change your motivation into something like that, something more energetic?

Yes.

Ok, let's hear it then?

There is only the feeling in experience

This feeling, without the thoughts, how would you describe it?

thoughts about it separate it.

From what?

the feeling is happening to this organism (me).

So where is it located (experienced) in your body?

Questions to ponder:

• How or why will “Seeing the self as an illusion/delusion.” be liberating?
  What do you mean by: “the self” ?
  When is something an illusion, when is it real?
  Do you care what other people think of you?

[Noobstorm]

From what?

The organism(me), conceptually.

So where is it located (experienced) in your body?

Somewhere in the chest area, perhaps the heart/around it.

How or why will “Seeing the self as an illusion/delusion.” be liberating?

I can't imagine precisely how it would be liberating.

The story of me will be gone and there will be no one (believed) to suffer.

What can happen to boredom, frustration, fear, etc. ?

What do you mean by: “the self” ?

Me.

This feeling, without the thoughts, how would you describe it?

Without thoughts of whatever is producing the feeling? It disappears, but I can't do this intentionally.

When is something an illusion, when is it real?

When it is believed in or not recognized as an illusion. (experientially)

Do you care what other people think of you?

In most cases, yes.

[lex]

What can happen to boredom, frustration, fear, etc. ?

It can disappear, stay the same or get worse.
But there is no one worried about it.

And could you change your motivation into something like that, something more energetic?

Yes.

So, please formulate.

On a scale from 1-10 how ready are you to see the truth no matter what?
(1- slightly curious. 10 - totally burning.)

Please, make an extensive list, describing what you would like liberation to be like and what you don't want it to be like.
Put at least 15 items.

[Noobstorm]

There is only the feeling in experience, but thoughts about it separate it; the feeling is happening to this organism (me).

The differentiation here (between thought-input and reality) produced a smile and a little laughter when I really considered it. I thought it might be worth mentioning.

It can disappear, stay the same or get worse.
But there is no one worried about it.

But there is worry?

On a scale from 1-10 how ready are you to see the truth no matter what?
(1- slightly curious. 10 - totally burning.)

8/9. At this point there are doubts that this inquiry will work for me.
There is a strong attachment to me, regardless of the possibility I can't exist.

But I am determined to continue.

Please, make an extensive list, describing what you would like liberation to be like and what you don't want it to be like.
Put at least 15 items.

The fear of death will be gone
Worries about the future/past will diminish
Life will be more lively & flowing
Feelings of inferiority/superiority will vanish
Peace/Contentment
Love without condition
Bliss
Acceptance
What I don't want is life to be colorless/pale.

... that's all I can come up with.

I am aware that some of these may/may not happen or may happen to a certain extent.

[lex]

The differentiation here (between thought-input and reality) produced a smile and a little laughter when I really considered it. I thought it might be worth mentioning.

Very good!

But there is worry?

Everything is still possible, but diminishing of worry is a natural consequence. There are no guarantees, though.

Investigate:
What is worrying? What is its root? What is it "made of"? What is its purpose? What is its advantage/disadvantage?
Let me know what you find.

At this point there are doubts that this inquiry will work for me.
But I am determined to continue.

Same here. 8^)
Please investigate your doubts and display them.

There is a strong attachment to me, regardless of the possibility I can't exist.

Great! Let's put that under the microscope. Investigate it the same as with the dissatisfaction. What are you afraid of? Please, report what you find / experience.

I am aware that some of these may/may not happen or may happen to a certain extent.

Of course, I didn't ask you to be realistic, the exercise is about getting stuff to the surface, so be imaginative, creative and as unrealistic as you can. Please try to come up with some more. Especially what you DON'T want it to be. For example: I asked you lately if you care about what other people think of you. I don't see this back in your "post-liberation wish list". Are you OK with being influenced by what other people (might) think of you?

Liberation is not a mental thing. To get the whole organism involved I would recommend you to start running twice a day, but in a bit different way than the average jogger. Run at a comfortable pace, but fast enough to make your heartbeat go up and your breathing faster. Monitor as precisely as you can what happens to the body. Make sure that when you arrive home you are still out of breath and as quickly as you can sit still with your eyes closed and keep on monitoring what happens to your body / mind. There is no time limit, it is just important to get to the state of slightly-out-of-breath. This is not about improving shape or "getting better". It is an awakening exercise. Don't move until the breath and heart rate have returned to normal, then make notes about what you experienced.

[Noobstorm]

What is worrying?

Me.

What is its root?

This organism.

What is it "made of"?

Functions of the organism, senses, thoughts (personality).

What is its purpose?

I don't know

What is its advantage/disadvantage?

Advantange - Distinction between individuals
Disadvantage - Suffering

Please investigate your doubts and display them.
...
Great! Let's put that under the microscope. Investigate it the same as with the dissatisfaction. What are you afraid of? Please, report what you find / experience.

This inquiry isn't working, so I think I have a strong attachment to the self.
I also feel the lack of a perfect logical understanding is pulling me back.

Of course, I didn't ask you to be realistic, the exercise is about getting stuff to the surface, so be imaginative, creative and as unrealistic as you can. Please try to come up with some more.

The fear of death will be gone
Worries about the future/past will diminish
Life will be more lively & flowing
Feelings of inferiority/superiority will vanish
Peace/Contentment
Love without condition
Bliss
Acceptance
Permanent state of joy
One-ness (seeing me in everything)
Present-oriented experience
Free of worries
I don't want life to be colorless/pale
I don't want to be dependent on others judgements
I don't want to be dissatisfied with life
I don't want to fear death
[quote="="lex""] Make sure that when you arrive home you are still out of breath and as quickly as you can sit still with your eyes closed and keep on monitoring what happens to your body / mind. There is no time limit, it is just important to get to the state of slightly-out-of-breath. This is not about improving shape or "getting better". It is an awakening exercise. Don't move until the breath and heart rate have returned to normal, then make notes about what you experienced.[/quote]
Okay, I will let you know how this works out.

[lex]

What is worrying?

Me.

Haha. The question was not: "What is it that is worrying?" I just wanted you to investigate worrying, look into it. Like close your eyes, worry and look at you worrying and see if you discover something.

What is its root?

This organism.

Again, I meant the root of worrying not the root of "you". But as you bring up the subject anyway:
Sure, no organism -> no you. How is it the other way around? An organism without a you, would that be possible? Do you have a pet? Do animals have an I ?

What is it "made of"?

Functions of the organism, senses, thoughts (personality).

What is its purpose?

I don't know

This is not a test. My role is to guide, I'm not a teacher, you are not a student. I am not checking if you learned your lesson or how far you progressed. My questions are meant to make you look in places you probably haven't been/seen before and to make discoveries there. “Right answers" are not interesting. They will not lead you to liberation.

So look into the phenomenon of worrying and tell me what you find.

This inquiry isn't working, so I think I have a strong attachment to the self.

The technique of the inquiry simply is:
Focus on what you want to investigate.
Look what happens.

ANYTHING that happens is OK. Also nothing.

What (kind of) result were you expecting?

I also feel the lack of a perfect logical understanding is pulling me back.

Understanding about what, precisely?

[Noobstorm]

Haha. The question was not: "What is it that is worrying?" I just wanted you to investigate worrying, look into it. Like close your eyes, worry and look at you worrying and see if you discover something.

Ok, it can be read both ways. It would have been better phrased "What is worry?"

Sure, no organism -> no you. How is it the other way around? An organism without a you, would that be possible?

Yes.

Do animals have an I ?

Most of them may not.

So look into the phenomenon of worrying and tell me what you find.

What is worrying?

Concern about something, or something that may have an unwanted outcome.

What is its root?

Thoughts about things concerned about

What is it "made of"?

Thoughts and feelings

What is its purpose?

Prevent unwanted things from happening

What is its advantage/disadvantage?

Advantage - It may help prevent unwanted things from happening.
Disadvantage - It's not a comfortable feeling, and sometimes it can waste time.

What (kind of) result were you expecting?

Seeing the absence of me.

Understanding about what, precisely?

Understanding no self.

[lex]

Haha. The question was not: "What is it that is worrying?" I just wanted you to investigate worrying, look into it. Like close your eyes, worry and look at you worrying and see if you discover something.

Ok, it can be read both ways. It would have been better phrased "What is worry?"

I want you to worry and look at it/ investigate it. What happens when you worry? What feeling(s) does it evoke? Where is that located in the body? Observe.
So look and tell me what you find.

What is worrying "made of"?

Thoughts and feelings.

What kind of thoughts?
What kind of feelings?

What is its purpose?

Prevent unwanted things from happening

Does worrying ever succeed in that? What is its REAL purpose?

Sure, no organism -> no you. How is it the other way around? An organism without a you, would that be possible?

Yes.

So if you can imagine animals without I, could you imagine humans without I? Do very young children have an I? How would you recognise an adult without an I? What would be "symptoms" of being without an I?

What (kind of) result were you expecting?

Seeing the absence of me.

Understanding about what, precisely?

Understanding no self.

The ‘absence of me’ can't be seen nor understood.
It can be seen that there is no self. That the bloody thing is pure fiction, wrong conditioning, foisted upon an innocent, gullible child.

Go inside and locate this self you are so attached to. Where is it? Is it located in the body? Observe, search until you find it.
Where is it?
How does it look like?
Something like this, maybe?

I also feel the lack of a perfect logical understanding is pulling me back.

Do you feel the need for a logical/scientific proof that there is no self?
For an object to be seen, there must be distance between the object and the perceiver. Agree?
So: What you see you can not be.
Ponder that.

I found this article about free will on youtube.
The idea that there is no free will is less radical than the vision that there is no self.
Free will does exists. It just hasn't got an owner.

[lex]

Forget about that Sam Harris article. I just listened all three parts and I found it not worth spending time on it. I'll see if I can find some better "logical foundation", although I doubt it will help you. As I said before: Liberation is not a mental thing.
How is the running / investigation going?

[Noobstorm]

What happens when you worry? What feeling(s) does it evoke? Where is that located in the body? Observe.

Feelings of anxiety arise, located in the chest area primarily. Then decisions are made about what must be done.

What is worrying "made of"?

Thoughts and feelings.

What kind of thoughts?
What kind of feelings?

Thoughts about something not wanted to happen. Feelings of anxiety, unease and such follow.

What is its purpose?

Prevent unwanted things from happening

Does worrying ever succeed in that? What is its REAL purpose?

Yes.. lets say I am worried about being attacked by criminals. So, because I am worried, I would get some sort of weapon for self defense.

So, in some cases it can prevent an unwanted thing from happening.

So if you can imagine animals without I, could you imagine humans without I?

Yes.

Do very young children have an I?

No.

How would you recognise an adult without an I? What would be "symptoms" of being without an I?

I'm not quite sure how I would recognize one.

The "symptoms" would be not reacting to the story of me.

Where is it?

Thoughts perhaps.

Something like this, maybe?

Something along the lines of that.

Do you feel the need for a logical/scientific proof that there is no self?

Yes, undeniable logical proof there is no self.

For an object to be seen, there must be distance between the object and the perceiver. Agree?

Yes.

So: What you see you can not be.

I'll keep thinking about this.

How is the running / investigation going?

The body rests and stabilizes after the running, it feels relaxing.

[lex]

The "symptoms" would be not reacting to the story of me.

That is indeed one of the most common symptoms. An I-thought comes up, is seen as such (just a thought) and disappears without causing turmoil or evoking other I-thoughts. For instance a thought like: “O, I shouldn't have done that.” comes up, is seen through as just-another-I-thought and leaves again, because it is not believed.

This is why I asked you to investigate worrying. All are exercises in introspection, something most of the "gate-crashers" have been doing for many years before landing at Liberation Unleashed.

Seeing without doubt that the self is an imaginary thought-construct is mostly not the end of the story. Residual conditioning keeps showing up, sometimes so strong that it is still believed in. Even worse: there is nothing to do about it, because there is no controlling agency. Surrender is the only option. As long as you believe that you are this controlling entity living inside (or as) Ali, use it as a tool.

I want you to investigate all your I-thoughts, “I should/would/could ...”-thoughts and also monitor and list fears/worries and desires. Write down as many as you can. Try also to get the more volatile feelings and thoughts into words. It would be good to dedicate a special notebook just for this.

I would recommend to stay at least 20 minutes after the running sitting quietly and observing what goes on in your consciousness. Don't be focused on seeing no-self. The purpose is to sharpen your tool of self-investigation, which in itself won't lead you to 'seeing', but greatly enhances your chances. Also keep observing as much as you can during your normal routine. Stay alert. Keep an eye on Ali, not as a controller, but with a mild and forgiving vigilance.

A logical foundation, a "proof" of no-self can't be given directly. You can't proof that unicorns don't exist. The only possibility is an exhaustive search or reductio ad absurdum, and in the case of the self we have to do both:

1. Try to proof that a self exists.
   • So see if you can come up with a proof that a self exists.
     Suppose I'm totally wrong and it does really exists. I'm open to logical argumentation. Convince me.
2. Investigate: What is it not?
   • Investigate body, thoughts, feelings (including the "sense of self")
     And investigate thoroughly, answers like "thoughts perhaps" won't lead to the gateless gate. Be precise and ruthless