Thread for Luke

[jowate]

This sense of 'what I am' which feels like nothing, or no-thing - do some 'feeling it out' in direct experience. It's undeniably 'here' but can't be fixated or grasped (well, let me know is it experienced like that or not)?

Let's call it 'no-thing': when it's 'sensed', is there any sense of a separate anything, including any separate 'I' or 'other'?

Suggest you keep 'looking' at this all thorough the day, and then respond here.

T.

[Luke]

Hi T

This sense of 'what I am' which feels like nothing, or no-thing - do some 'feeling it out' in direct experience. It's undeniably 'here' but can't be fixated or grasped (well, let me know is it experienced like that or not)?

Yes it's here, recognisable when its there or not. It defies fixing or grasping, it non stick. Yes it's like you say. It's knowing, non stick quality makes it differ from ordinary awareness.

Let's call it 'no-thing': when it's 'sensed', is there any sense of a separate anything, including any separate 'I' or 'other'?

Sounds weird, but its sort of communicates or shows no I. But me thoughts, and grasping emotional sensations can be present too. But this awareness is like a light showing up where selfing is happening, which naturally loosens in its presence and perspective is gained relatively easily.

Any sense of a separate anything? There is definitely less sense of inner and outer, but there is some division. Not a grossly obvious separate me, me and I thoughts, yes. Some identification. But with this no-thing awareness too. Feels very close, like the I has got more subtle. Or that its lessened off by 90%,

Thanks

Luke

[Luke]

Just a few more comments relating to your last post.

Exploring what the sense of separation might be. A collection of thoughts and energy around the head. Exploring how these are automatic.

But what was noticed was how some mental activity is taken to be more special or important than say sounds next door and that it was this importance or attention to them that magnified them and created distortion of separation, The importance was partly a desire to get rid of thoughts. Had more of a sense of thought being a sense arising of no more importance, which tended to smooth out experience. Still not quite there but again felt like the right direction.

Thanks

Luke

[Luke]

Just wanted to mention that the last observation made about inflating post was prompted by a message you posted on another thread perhaps a month ago, which prompted a period of no separation at the time, see below:

It's directly obvious that all there is, is change, endless flux, and any 'me' or ‘I’ thoughts that come up are just part of the flux, no more important than scratching my ear.

Notice the experiencing that’s happening ‘there’ in this way.

Notice that the thought 'me' doesn't experience anything or do anything. Thoughts don’t ‘think’ and they don’t ‘experience’.

Notice that ‘me’ is just another thought – a self-important puffed up thought.

There is no thing called ‘me’ in this endless flux or river or flow of sensations of the five senses and the mind. Simply be the flow – because that is what you are anyway, that is all there is.

Notice that there’s nothing separate from the flow or flux, nothing doing it or ‘having it’.

[Luke]

Hi T

Thought I would just check in. Am continuing to work with what you suggested. Feeling a touch confused about what I am doing. Occasionally getting in touch with the awareness that is no-thing, which is easiest to do if I ask a question or something. Sometimes it seems like its very profound, sometimes like I am just in an alienated or weird state. Its clear, ordinary and lucid.

There was a period yesturday when noticed the thoughts in my head as just expeirence like sound and for a few hours I experienced a sense of there being no division between inner and outer worlds. The key difference with this experience was that it felt like the sense of looking out from my head sort which creates division shifted out. But the experience felt 'state' like, like it needed maintaing or something. There was not a sense of seperate I, although there was I and me thoughts, they were not seperate from experience. Reminded me of Ingram's description of Mind and Body.

But this experience of unity felt kind of different to the No-thing awareness type experience, though at times they were both present. Felt a bit confused about whats being aimed at with this and where these seemingly slightly different experiences of lucid awareness (which doesnt always come with a sense of no seperation) and the no seperation experience.

Perhaps I am going off track with this reflection! and maybe looking for a particular state or experience.

Thanks

Luke

P.S if there are days you are unable to post, would you still like me to post? Or does that just add too much to the length of the posts you need to read?

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

Yes, sorry not to have been able to post the last 2 days ... I've been pretty full-on with various things, and it's not letting up as I've got a retreat to set up and lead from tomorrow. I'll attempt to give your most recent posts a read through and response by some time tomorrow - hope you can bear with me.

Just one ongoing thing: keep coming back, coming back, coming back to direct experience: in the seen, just what is seen ... Look - where is 'self' in this sound, this body feeling, this smell, this arising thought? ... Is there a 'you' in terms of that?

I think you know where I'm pointing ...

T.

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

Ok, have had the opportunity to go through your recent posts. I won’t comment on everything, but some salient points:

Sounds weird, but its sort of communicates or shows no I. But me thoughts, and grasping emotional sensations can be present too. But this awareness is like a light showing up where selfing is happening, which naturally loosens in its presence and perspective is gained relatively easily.

Any sense of a separate anything? There is definitely less sense of inner and outer, but there is some division. Not a grossly obvious separate me, me and I thoughts, yes. Some identification. But with this no-thing awareness too. Feels very close, like the I has got more subtle. Or that its lessened off by 90%

Thoughts and grasping emotional sensations may be ‘selfing’ – but it’s vital to recognise that ‘selfing’ is just a label, a thought, NOT a self!

‘but there is some division’ – look at what that consists of. If it is a thought, it’s just another story. ‘the I has got more subtle’ is another story – there is no ‘I’ to be subtle or not subtle!

See through the whole ‘I’ charade: there is nothing there at all. Nothing!

Exploring what the sense of separation might be. A collection of thoughts and energy around the head. Exploring how these are automatic.

But what was noticed was how some mental activity is taken to be more special or important than say sounds next door and that it was this importance or attention to them that magnified them and created distortion of separation, The importance was partly a desire to get rid of thoughts. Had more of a sense of thought being a sense arising of no more importance, which tended to smooth out experience. Still not quite there but again felt like the right direction.

Yes – “what was noticed was how some mental activity is taken to be more special or important than say sounds next door and that it was this importance or attention to them that magnified them and created distortion of separation” – exactly. Who takes the mental activity to be more important? Is it anything than another thought that arises after the original thought? (A thought masquerading as a ‘me’.)

Sometimes it seems like its very profound, sometimes like I am just in an alienated or weird state. Its clear, ordinary and lucid.

Look at it this way: these are just states arising. States are endless, there will always be states. But can you find an ‘I’ doing these states? Can you find an ‘I’ experiencing these states?

The key difference with this experience was that it felt like the sense of looking out from my head sort which creates division shifted out. But the experience felt 'state' like, like it needed maintaing or something. There was not a sense of seperate I, although there was I and me thoughts, they were not seperate from experience

Same comment as just above. More states. Realising no-self is not a state: it’s knowing directly that whatever happens, all possible states of ‘being and consciousness’, all ‘me’ thoughts, arise without the involvement of a separate ‘I’. Yes, ‘me’ thoughts are not separate from experience – that’s all they are, experiences, not ‘me’.

But this experience of unity felt kind of different to the No-thing awareness type experience, though at times they were both present. Felt a bit confused about whats being aimed at with this and where these seemingly slightly different experiences of lucid awareness (which doesnt always come with a sense of no seperation) and the no seperation experience.

Well as I say, it’s not about a ‘state’, it’s knowing the absence of any ‘self’ doing those states. It really doesn’t mater what kinds of state arise, what the content is. That includes states of ‘no separation’ – that’s just another experience. You’re not trying to be in a permanent ‘state of no separation’ – what we’re doing here is pointing to the complete lack of any real ‘self’ having anything whasoever to do with whatever states arise whatever they are.

Hope this helps.

T.

[Luke]

Hi Luke,

Hope this helps.

Very much so, thanks.

Thoughts and grasping emotional sensations may be ‘selfing’ – but it’s vital to recognise that ‘selfing’ is just a label, a thought, NOT a self!

Yes, this is confused with thinking selfing will disappear or needs to be got rid of. Had a moment the other night when I had felt a little squished or suppressed (bit alienated) and allowed a selfing scenario to be acted out in my imagination, which felt a relief, sort of challenged it to do its worst. But then I noticed that no matter what it did, it couldn't possibly be separate from anything or happening to someone.

‘but there is some division’ – look at what that consists of. If it is a thought, it’s just another story. ‘the I has got more subtle’ is another story – there is no ‘I’ to be subtle or not subtle!

Yes, this is getting clearer

See through the whole ‘I’ charade: there is nothing there at all. Nothing!

No, Only I thoughts, which is just an experience not a separate I.

Who takes the mental activity to be more important? Is it anything than another thought that arises after tthe original thought? (A thought masquerading as a ‘me’.)

No it's just a thinking process, the story of a who, but no separate one.

Look at it this way: these are just states arising. States are endless, there will always be states. But can you find an ‘I’ doing these states?

Only I thoughts, which are impotent to do anything, they are part of the state it's self

Can you find an ‘I’ experiencing these states?

There is experiencing of any given state, the I, being a thought cant experience them it is experience

Realising no-self is not a state: it’s knowing directly that whatever happens, all possible states of ‘being and consciousness’, all ‘me’ thoughts, arise without the involvement of a separate ‘I’.

Yes, ‘me’ thoughts are not separate from experience – that’s all they are, experiences, not ‘me’.

You’re not trying to be in a permanent ‘state of no separation’ – what we’re doing here is pointing to the complete lack of any real ‘self’ having anything whasoever to do with whatever states arise whatever they are.

Yes, beginning to feel dividedness is not a problem when it happens, but when in a state of division it does seem harder to get the fact that there is not a self having the experience, but not impossible.

But what's strange is that the elements of what was called me, emotions and thoughts mainly. Still arise, but without the sense of a separate me having them or doing them. So experience still feels familiar, 'me like', but not, with a knowledge there is no me outside these thoughts and emotions.

I wrote most of this message earlier this morning. Felt like things were much clearer then. That clarity does wax and wane. Notice how after seeing things clearly a number of things sometimes happen, I can get really bad fatigue and brain fog, start becoming anxious about my health or sometimes plumet into doubt. I think all of them have hit me at some point in the day. Have lost perspective for much of the afternoon. But it feels like its coming back again re-reading the mail. Its quite unstable.

Thanks

Luke

[Luke]

Sorry, of course my e-mail should read Hi T not Hi Luke, cut and pasting mess up rather than identity confusion!

[jowate]

Hi Luke

Yes, beginning to feel dividedness is not a problem when it happens, but when in a state of division it does seem harder to get the fact that there is not a self having the experience, but not impossible.

Ok, so the direct pointing is ‘pointing’ to a direct knowing that there is not and never was a ‘self’ / ‘me’ / ‘I’. That’s to say, it’s simply known directly like the non-existence of Santa is known – there is no doubt, no lurking belief that maybe Santa does exist or sort of exists. And (to strain the metaphor a bit) when Santa is seen in the shopping mall, there’s no wavering – that’s definitely known to be a bloke wearing a false beard!

But what's strange is that the elements of what was called me, emotions and thoughts mainly. Still arise, but without the sense of a separate me having them or doing them. So experience still feels familiar, 'me like', but not, with a knowledge there is no me outside these thoughts and emotions.

That’s to be expected. The self-view is projected upon these emotions and thoughts, upon the familiar experiences of all six senses. Seeing through it is knowing directly and irrefutably ‘these ain’t “me”’.

I wrote most of this message earlier this morning. Felt like things were much clearer then. That clarity does wax and wane. Notice how after seeing things clearly a number of things sometimes happen, I can get really bad fatigue and brain fog, start becoming anxious about my health or sometimes plumet into doubt. I think all of them have hit me at some point in the day. Have lost perspective for much of the afternoon. But it feels like its coming back again re-reading the mail. Its quite unstable.

Yes, you’re doing well, so don’t despair! The fatigue and so on are probably symptoms of resistance, which in turn is probably an expression of or related to doubt. What is ‘under’ that – what is the resistance and doubt protecting? Look especially when it’s happening ‘what is this protecting?’

In direct experience can you actually find what it is protecting?

T.

[Luke]

Hi T

Ok, so the direct pointing is ‘pointing’ to a direct knowing that there is not and never was a ‘self’ / ‘me’ / ‘I’. That’s to say, it’s simply known directly like the non-existence of Santa is known – there is no doubt, no lurking belief that maybe Santa does exist or sort of exists. And (to strain the metaphor a bit) when Santa is seen in the shopping mall, there’s no wavering – that’s definitely known to be a bloke wearing a false beard!

I don't think there is quite this kind of clarity yet, though I can smell brandy on his breath and his beard is poorly attached!

Yes, you’re doing well, so don’t despair! The fatigue and so on are probably symptoms of resistance, which in turn is probably an expression of or related to doubt. What is ‘under’ that – what is the resistance and doubt protecting? Look especially when it’s happening ‘what is this protecting?’

The symptoms have coming on particularly after vipassana for a few years, doctor can't find anything wrong.

Looking at it, there is a deep existential fear, a protecting me, from death, illness, madness, feels like the deepest seat of identity, how odd I have been ignoring this so far in the process.

Yet, because its scared and suffers its energy is also driving this investigation, has been driving practice for many years. It is really wanting to get this, make everything ok and stop all the fear and pain that life brings, some tears writing this, really touched on something here....

In direct experience can you actually find what it is protecting?

Not sure, not really, feels like loop or something, strong sense of 'me' here, feel tearful writing....

Thanks for bearing with me T

Luke

[Luke]

Hi T

Just a few more thoughts.

Look especially when it’s happening ‘what is this protecting?’

Its quite hard to say what its protecting, its definately more like a self justifying story. Its kind of a Me story, 'doing this will make 'me' ill' or 'I need to do more of this and that before I do this', ' I am not capable of doing this'. They are doubts about doing this of sorts.But they contain a heavy dose of me. Perhaps much more so than most thoughts.But a growing sense that they are just happening, they may have a strong me sense, but are they me and do they happen to a seperate me?

When I shut my eyes all I feel is a sense of being and awareness. If I ask where a sense of me is, there is the odd whiff of a story about what I am doing closing my eyes. Awareness that that is a me story in its self and not much going on really. A wobble of confusion, is this it, surely not, what am I looking for...Arising to a anyone? Thoughts keep commenting, but the someone is just aware space really, more of a no-one than a someone. Yet the question arises that cant be it can it?

there’s no wavering – that’s definitely known to be a bloke wearing a false beard!

The Santa metaphor definately gives the sense that no matter how convincing the costume we wont believe it, with Santa there is never a getting sucked in again. Even though it feels like there have been glimpses of there being no i or me there, getting sucked in definately keeps happening, during that sucking in the direct experience of no self is replaced by more of a memory or thought. But perhaps it isnt believed in as it once was. Not sure where the line is..

Thanks T

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

Looking at it, there is a deep existential fear, a protecting me, from death, illness, madness, feels like the deepest seat of identity, how odd I have been ignoring this so far in the process.

Very good you see that – that fear-protection mechanism is at the root of grasping at a ‘self’. And it is a mechanism – it’s on ‘automatic pilot’ – just recognise whenever it arises that this is not ‘self’ or ‘me’ even if it feels like ‘the deepest seat of identity’.

The self-view is sustained by mentally identifying with what feels like its my-self – but really examine it directly in experience: is it ever anything other than just another thought or sensation?

It is really wanting to get this, make everything ok and stop all the fear and pain that life brings

This is natural for everyone but mis-directed.

We focus on protecting ‘our-selves’ by contraction, trying to manipulate ourselves into a safe place by keeping this in and keeping this out. Fear stops us from ‘opening up the thatch’ – what if it rains? ‘What if people come in and steal my stuff’! This is the deluded situation which is inherently painful and stressful and perpetuates painfulness /stress.

Opening up comes from recognising that ‘nobody is at home’ - your nature is always undivided, no separation of ‘me’ and ‘other’. When this is seen and known directly, the inevitable vicissitudes of life still happen, but there is less and less tendency to be painfully thrown about by it all.

In direct experience can you actually find what it is protecting?


Not sure, not really, feels like loop or something, strong sense of 'me' here, … , its definately more like a self justifying story

That describes it exactly – the ‘sense’ of me is just a loop – a self-justifying story that keeps telling itself to itself.

But a growing sense that they are just happening, they may have a strong me sense, but are they me and do they happen to a seperate me?

Yes, you’re on the right track there.

When I shut my eyes all I feel is a sense of being and awareness. If I ask where a sense of me is, there is the odd whiff of a story about what I am doing closing my eyes. Awareness that that is a me story in its self and not much going on really. A wobble of confusion, is this it, surely not, what am I looking for...Arising to a anyone?

Recognise the story as just a story. The story is not your-self – it’s just thoughts self-identifying. Wobbles of confusion (polarisation, selfing, self-identifying) will still happen after the gate. Passing through the gateless gate means knowing directly nonetheless that all of this is on automatic – it’s happening to no-one.

Thoughts keep commenting, but the someone is just aware space really, more of a no-one than a someone. Yet the question arises that cant be it can it?

Exactly – you’ve got it. Then you doubt it! Recognise that the doubt is just the contracting, self-protecting, pain/stress producing dualistic mind trying to sustain itself. Then open up to the naturally present aware space that you really are!

T.

[Luke]

Hi T

Interesting, have been oscillating between two extremes, two days ago there was so much doubt, confusion feeling ill. Thoughts of giving it up. Yesterday driving into work, asked is there an I behind this experience, noticed the director or witness, was a thought, awareness slid out and there was a sense of being located no where, rather than in my head, which lasted all day. Often feeling like empty space.

Noticing how today, there is a bit more of a sense of perceiving from the head, which gives a fairly subtle sense of inner and outer. Remembered what you said about how we are not trying to maintain a particular state ( strong habit and view), but to see there is no self in or doing any particular state. This helped and it all seemed ok, noticed how the state maintaing mind is more selfing but also how the divided state wasn't me....yet it remained divided in a sense..there was a kind of aware no body type peace still there.

The self-view is sustained by mentally identifying with what feels like its my-self – but really examine it directly in experience: is it ever anything other than just another thought or sensation?

Good point feels like the nub. Each time the sensation arises, have noticed how just because it feels like me, it's just sensation then a labelling though, this tip was very helpful.

We focus on protecting ‘our-selves’ by contraction, trying to manipulate ourselves into a safe place by keeping this in and keeping this out. Fear stops us from ‘opening up the thatch’ – what if it rains? ‘What if people come in and steal my stuff’! This is the deluded situation which is inherently painful and stressful and perpetuates painfulness /stress.

That's helpful

Opening up comes from recognising that ‘nobody is at home’ - your nature is always undivided, no separation of ‘me’ and ‘other’. When this is seen and known directly, the inevitable vicissitudes of life still happen, but there is less and less tendency to be painfully thrown about by it all.

Beginning to get a feeling for this, yet butterflys still arise. Is it possible to see no self but for fear to still be present, as that is what it feels like. My expectation is they can't co exist

Recognise the story as just a story. The story is not your-self – it’s just thoughts self-identifying. Wobbles of confusion (polarisation, selfing, self-identifying) will still happen after the gate. Passing through the gateless gate means knowing directly nonetheless that all of this is on automatic – it’s happening to no-one.

Yes that helps

Exactly – you’ve got it. Then you doubt it! Recognise that the doubt is just the contracting, self-protecting, pain/stress producing dualistic mind trying to sustain itself. Then open up to the naturally present aware space that you really are!

This is great. Noticing how getting it, is often followed by a doubt thought. Ah yes, it definitely feels like the no-thing awareness can be present with the doubt or fear, but it somewhat disarms it...or can it..(there it goes again!)

Thanks

Luke

[jowate]

Hi Luke,

Yesterday driving into work, asked is there an I behind this experience, noticed the director or witness, was a thought, awareness slid out and there was a sense of being located no where, rather than in my head, which lasted all day. Often feeling like empty space.

Ok, good – the bit in bold: this is a passing experience, but it’s important to ‘note’ that as authentic – that’s how it really is. You won’t experience this all the time, but such experiences are sufficient basis to gain confidence in the absence of self / separation.

Noticing how today, there is a bit more of a sense of perceiving from the head, which gives a fairly subtle sense of inner and outer. Remembered what you said about how we are not trying to maintain a particular state ( strong habit and view), but to see there is no self in or doing any particular state. This helped and it all seemed ok, noticed how the state maintaing mind is more selfing but also how the divided state wasn't me.... yet it remained divided in a sense..there was a kind of aware no body type peace still there.

Yes, again, (and repeating what I’ve said already) that recognition (bold bit) is enough. Recognise that the sense of ‘dividedness’ is just a particular set of sensations and a mental interpretation going on ‘divided’. You could say that there is just a particular kind of experience arising, which is associated with ‘dividedness’. But open to it – is there any actual ‘boundary’ to be found in that direct experience?

Beginning to get a feeling for this, yet butterflys still arise. Is it possible to see no self but for fear to still be present, as that is what it feels like. My expectation is they can't co exist

On the contrary, when it’s known directly that there is ‘no self’ (i.e. what might be called an ‘insight experience’), fear is very common. It comes from the deep mental-emotional holding to the notion of ‘me’ as some kind of really existing thing. Just recognise that this is the delueded mind doing what it does – it’s happening, but don’t give it any credence or even any particular attention, let it arise and notice that it passes.

Ah yes, it definitely feels like the no-thing awareness can be present with the doubt or fear, but it somewhat disarms it...or can it..

Yes it can!!!

T.