Hi Sparsa,
Do you feel you are ready for the final questions then? Seeing of no self is the first step. Then when you go to aftercare there will be more happening. Insight deepens. Warmly, Metta
metta777 - request for guidance
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
"This too shall pass"
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
hi metta.
yes i feel ready to move onto the final questions.
thanks for your ongoing guidance and support.
sparsa
yes i feel ready to move onto the final questions.
thanks for your ongoing guidance and support.
sparsa
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
hi metta...
im wondering what the next step is now...do you give me the questions?
sparsa
im wondering what the next step is now...do you give me the questions?
sparsa
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
Hi Sparsa, Yes, exactly. Here are the final questions, answer them the best you can, there is no right or wrong. If there are any questions in the final seeing, then myself or another guide may ask you to clarify.
Thank You, Metta
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
Thank You, Metta
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
"This too shall pass"
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
ok here goes...
Actions are happening, words are said, movements are made, there is eating, singing (!), walking etc but none of this seems to arise from the involvement of any discernible 'I', 'me', 'self'. Something much more mysterious seems to be happening!
Well this question assumes the existence of time in the first place. Outside of mental projection I cant get any experiential sense of time, so the question seems only relevant from the perspective that time is real. But accepting the time dimension – just because I believed in the notion of seperate 'me' doesnt mean there ever was one! It was always an illusion – I took the thought as labelling something real.
So arising thoughts become 'my' thoughts, habits become 'my' habits. The believed web of concepts creates the illusion there is a 'me' here, that arrived in time, that is going to die, but in the mean time generates it own behaviour from its own separate willpower. The thoughts tell me i'm encased in this bag of skin, I have a clear boundary to me. Outside the bag of skin is 'other'. From this fundamental misconception arise thoughts and emotions in relationship to this way of seeing or interpreting things: Fear, jealousy, insecurity, anxiety, selfish ambition, loneliness, hate, despair, nihilism..the list goes on! As 'we' grow up the emotions this generates are at times too painful to allow ourselves to fully experience, out body tenses against them, and they get stuck playing out in hidden and unhelpful ways. So the confusion runs deep.
Unexamined and unquestioned believed thoughts create their own world, one at odds with how things actually are – the inevitable clashing between hows things are and how they are thought to be makes life more difficult than it need be. The actual I-making habit starts early, as the Inherited programming from our parents and the culture we live in instils a framework of beliefs that are unquestioned and continually reinforced through language and education etc. The thoughts are like a spell on us, we are mesmerised by them, we believe them more than our actual direct experience.
Its possible to relax abit more when knowing that through relaxing and trusting, appropriate actions will just happen, rather than believing the wheel is out of control unless a 'I' has hands tightly clasped onto it. Seeing through the illusory nature of self has had all sort of other dimensions for me: increased release/flow of energy, periods of strong fear and confusion, inertia, uncertainty how to be in the world with old motivations weakened, sense of wonder and openness, strong experiences of unresolved deluded energies pressing for attention etc. At some fundamental level there is a increased sense of being – ok.
One particular thing is that there is more time spent in a sort of largely thought free, innocent, open awareness – which feels sort of contented and kind of childlike, with a hint of wonder to it.
The work of seeing through self more and more deeply feels ongoing, its a journey, and the feelings change, and who knows whats ahead!
I realise its very difficult , if not impossible to simply talk someone into greater clarity through giving lots of information and theories. Such words may just stimulate more thinking by the thinking factory! I do feel pointers and experiential exercises can be a effective way of pointing someone in the right direction, and giving a direct taste of what many spiritual traditions are pointing towards. 'It' has to been seen directly!
To explain it in words...um...Well everyone has some experience of believing in something that they later found out was mistaken. Maybe a starting point would be to encourage looking for the self. What is this 'I' we refer to so much in language, our thinking and inner dialogue. Where is it? What is it? How do thoughts arise? Where are you looking at your experience from? etc Further it would probably be worth stressing the value of making progress with this misunderstanding... that however widespread and largely unquestioned in our culture, is the source of so much suffering. So much of our suffering is simply stressful mental projection that we dont see we are doing to ourselves.
Loosen belief of this projection and life can start to be experienced differently, more harmoniously even . As the confusion is seen through an innate clarity can start to come through. From believing that any sensitivity,clarity or even just sanity in our lives was from the efforts of a little 'me' trying to steer our actions this way and that, there is seeing that the believing in a separate me (and thinking there are hands and a wheel) is actually like a spanner in the works, complicating and disrupting a more natural, spontaneous, wise, dance with life. I would also want to point out that seeing through delusion is a journey, and it is likely to have difficult, challenging, even bewildering phases. That the journey is different for everyone.
It feels like these themes have been deepening over time as the work of seeing through unhelpful programming and clearing trauma continues. So mainly a gradual aligning with the truth, with some fireworks here and there! One of the things ive gained so far in my short stint in this forum is a increased confidence is trusting my own experience.
There is the word 'me' with all the connotations it has. It is a concept. I cant see a actual 'me' , or what the word points to, in my actual direct experience, outside of thoughts. So whilst 'me' thoughts may arise, and at times there is believing in the cargo or contents of those thoughts as real, in terms of direct experience there is only a continuously dynamic range of unfolding experience – sounds, smells, sights, tastes, tactile sensations, thoughts (including 'me' thoughts), emotions. All having their (less than) a moment and then passing.1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
Actions are happening, words are said, movements are made, there is eating, singing (!), walking etc but none of this seems to arise from the involvement of any discernible 'I', 'me', 'self'. Something much more mysterious seems to be happening!
Was there ever?
Well this question assumes the existence of time in the first place. Outside of mental projection I cant get any experiential sense of time, so the question seems only relevant from the perspective that time is real. But accepting the time dimension – just because I believed in the notion of seperate 'me' doesnt mean there ever was one! It was always an illusion – I took the thought as labelling something real.
Ok, will try to be succinct! The thinking mind is continuously generating thoughts: interpreting and labeling direct experience through the senses – that's what it does. There is no doubt that different types of experience are arising, in fact they obviously dont stop arising (!). Its like the thinking mind has its best stab at making sense of what's going on (within its own limitations) and explains the ongoing profusion of experience by creating the idea of a separate real me, I, self (that is masterminding the actions) that is 'here' and a separate world out 'there'.2)Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
So arising thoughts become 'my' thoughts, habits become 'my' habits. The believed web of concepts creates the illusion there is a 'me' here, that arrived in time, that is going to die, but in the mean time generates it own behaviour from its own separate willpower. The thoughts tell me i'm encased in this bag of skin, I have a clear boundary to me. Outside the bag of skin is 'other'. From this fundamental misconception arise thoughts and emotions in relationship to this way of seeing or interpreting things: Fear, jealousy, insecurity, anxiety, selfish ambition, loneliness, hate, despair, nihilism..the list goes on! As 'we' grow up the emotions this generates are at times too painful to allow ourselves to fully experience, out body tenses against them, and they get stuck playing out in hidden and unhelpful ways. So the confusion runs deep.
Unexamined and unquestioned believed thoughts create their own world, one at odds with how things actually are – the inevitable clashing between hows things are and how they are thought to be makes life more difficult than it need be. The actual I-making habit starts early, as the Inherited programming from our parents and the culture we live in instils a framework of beliefs that are unquestioned and continually reinforced through language and education etc. The thoughts are like a spell on us, we are mesmerised by them, we believe them more than our actual direct experience.
It feels many things at different times, much of which is maybe difficult to put into words. Firstly and perhaps most significantly is it can feel quite a relief that takes time to sink in! Stress causing thoughts can start to be seen for what they are – misguided and let go of before they 'take hold'. The unnecessary suffering that would have resulted from believing in them as real is therefore avoided. Life though is still difficult much of the time, there are still problems: areas of confusion, chaos, my body hurts etc but I find I have less mental proliferation going on – as more thoughts are seen through , there seems generally less thought activity. Maybe its abit like feeding pigeons – if the pieces of bread arent thrown down, they wont cluster around you As a lot of that thought activity was at best a waste of energy and at worst a form of torture – there is less making such a drama out of things!3)How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
Its possible to relax abit more when knowing that through relaxing and trusting, appropriate actions will just happen, rather than believing the wheel is out of control unless a 'I' has hands tightly clasped onto it. Seeing through the illusory nature of self has had all sort of other dimensions for me: increased release/flow of energy, periods of strong fear and confusion, inertia, uncertainty how to be in the world with old motivations weakened, sense of wonder and openness, strong experiences of unresolved deluded energies pressing for attention etc. At some fundamental level there is a increased sense of being – ok.
One particular thing is that there is more time spent in a sort of largely thought free, innocent, open awareness – which feels sort of contented and kind of childlike, with a hint of wonder to it.
The work of seeing through self more and more deeply feels ongoing, its a journey, and the feelings change, and who knows whats ahead!
Not sure about this, it would largely depend on who they were, what understanding they already had etc. For someone for example who has things such very poor self esteem, mental health issues, strong nihilistic tendencies, lack of friendship around them, im not so sure it would be a good idea.4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it?
I realise its very difficult , if not impossible to simply talk someone into greater clarity through giving lots of information and theories. Such words may just stimulate more thinking by the thinking factory! I do feel pointers and experiential exercises can be a effective way of pointing someone in the right direction, and giving a direct taste of what many spiritual traditions are pointing towards. 'It' has to been seen directly!
To explain it in words...um...Well everyone has some experience of believing in something that they later found out was mistaken. Maybe a starting point would be to encourage looking for the self. What is this 'I' we refer to so much in language, our thinking and inner dialogue. Where is it? What is it? How do thoughts arise? Where are you looking at your experience from? etc Further it would probably be worth stressing the value of making progress with this misunderstanding... that however widespread and largely unquestioned in our culture, is the source of so much suffering. So much of our suffering is simply stressful mental projection that we dont see we are doing to ourselves.
Loosen belief of this projection and life can start to be experienced differently, more harmoniously even . As the confusion is seen through an innate clarity can start to come through. From believing that any sensitivity,clarity or even just sanity in our lives was from the efforts of a little 'me' trying to steer our actions this way and that, there is seeing that the believing in a separate me (and thinking there are hands and a wheel) is actually like a spanner in the works, complicating and disrupting a more natural, spontaneous, wise, dance with life. I would also want to point out that seeing through delusion is a journey, and it is likely to have difficult, challenging, even bewildering phases. That the journey is different for everyone.
I guess ive been 'looking' for quite a long time. A heart connection made me pursue buddhist practice and I guess things have sort of unfolded from there over a period of around 15 years. Overtime I began to become clearer on what was body sensation and what was thought/image. During a intense period of meditation practice around five years, my mind developed new levels of clarity and I saw clearly where thoughts arose from and went too. I I started to see that the whole sense of a separate me was a conceptual illusion, that was projected onto experience and believed as real. I also had a strong experience that the essence of my being (for want of a better word!) was sensitive,open, inquisitive, vibrant awareness. It there was a true ''me' is was this, as opposed to all that I thought I was english, white, male etc.5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
It feels like these themes have been deepening over time as the work of seeing through unhelpful programming and clearing trauma continues. So mainly a gradual aligning with the truth, with some fireworks here and there! One of the things ive gained so far in my short stint in this forum is a increased confidence is trusting my own experience.
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
Hi Sparsa, Very good. I will get back to you before long. As for the earlier hold-up, computer problems. Someone else may have a question for you. Warmly, Metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
Another guide has a few questions for you Sparsa. If you would please answer these. Thank you, Metta777
- when just looking around and noticing, is anyone looking?
- when looking at the hand, legs, body, is there any sense of ownership?
- does Sparsa reside anywhere?
- with Sparsa gone, what's left?
- when just looking around and noticing, is anyone looking?
- when looking at the hand, legs, body, is there any sense of ownership?
- does Sparsa reside anywhere?
- with Sparsa gone, what's left?
"This too shall pass"
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
hi metta, ok thanks...
- with Sparsa gone, what's left?
Well Sparsa was actually never there in terms of direct experience, so the direct experience remains unfolding in its own way. The tingling, pulsing, aching, sights, sounds, smells rolling on. Life carries on, behaviours keeps happening, actions arises, but the conceptual interpretation that all this is coming from a seperate 'me' or 'sparsa' is no longer there.
no there is just seeing/percieving, experience is arising without there being a 'me' looking. The 'me' or 'I' is just a conceptual overlay - though very convincing when believed in!- when just looking around and noticing, is anyone looking?
Thoughts come up saying 'my leg' or 'my body' proclaiming 'ownership'. When i believe these thoughts there may be feelings of ownership. However outside of thinking i can only find the simple sense experience, which contains no quality of ownership - whats presenting is just presenting - with no one there to own anything.- when looking at the hand, legs, body, is there any sense of ownership?
Sparsa is just a label or a name. Within my experience there doesnt seem to be any essence or true sparsa. There is just the endless manifesting of different sensations through the senses that the thinking mind catogerises and abstracts together as sparsa or 'me'.- does Sparsa reside anywhere?
- with Sparsa gone, what's left?
Well Sparsa was actually never there in terms of direct experience, so the direct experience remains unfolding in its own way. The tingling, pulsing, aching, sights, sounds, smells rolling on. Life carries on, behaviours keeps happening, actions arises, but the conceptual interpretation that all this is coming from a seperate 'me' or 'sparsa' is no longer there.
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
Thank You, we will review your answers. Namaste, metta777
"This too shall pass"
Re: metta777 - request for guidance
Hi Sparsa, Do you want to give me your FB name for the LU site for confirmation. You have been confirmed. Congratulations! If not, that is fine, but there is an aftercare group which you are sent an invitation to which is recommended. If you would like my link for FB that is fine also if there is anything remaining that you wish to ask me later on. If not this is also fine as there will be plenty of people in the aftercare groups. Let me know. Good Luck, Warmly, Metta
"This too shall pass"
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