Cosmik - Can you help?

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barrie1
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby barrie1 » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:31 pm

Hi CosmiK

Working on this enquiry has reminded me of some experiences in the past when I suppose I had temporarily forgotten the idea of self and life flowed in an enjoyable way but oddly what always brought me back into feeling like a solid form was seeing myself reflected in a mirror and so I used to avoid mirrors for as long as possible.

Something you said was:
and there is no "in" the "body".
"In" is just a concept of location, and location is also just a concept.
but in direct experience, to me anyway sensations feel to be at different locations.
look again at the body. it may be the key sticking point here :)
is it the experiencer?
No, it is the sensations that are experienced.
is there an inside/outside with reference to the body? how is that possible?
I am not sure if I get this other than the sensations do not feel to be contained within the skin.
is the body AN experience? if so how does an experience experience experience, and how does it have an inside/outside?
There is just the experience of sensations. Does a tingling sensation have an inside and outside, probably not.

I am trying to walk around without a head most of the time now and I have to say it does take a weight off your shoulders, so to speak.

Barrie

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cosmiK
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby cosmiK » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:12 am

Hey :)
Working on this enquiry has reminded me of some experiences in the past when I suppose I had temporarily forgotten the idea of self and life flowed in an enjoyable way but oddly what always brought me back into feeling like a solid form was seeing myself reflected in a mirror and so I used to avoid mirrors for as long as possible.
Yes... the appearance of the first person character sometimes appears as a reflection in the mirror... usually it is of an apparent headless body. look at the mirror then... is the apparent reflection that thought labels "myself" really yourself?
but in direct experience, to me anyway sensations feel to be at different locations.
look closely at this. is there anything that suggests location other than thought? is location anything more than a concept?
I am not sure if I get this other than the sensations do not feel to be contained within the skin.
what I mean is, are the parts of experience that are "within" and some that are "without"?
is what is felt "in the body" "within" ?
these 2 labels relate to self / other as well.
we are looking to see if these labels are actually accurate to reality.
There is just the experience of sensations. Does a tingling sensation have an inside and outside, probably not.
investigate this and be sure. if "inside" and "outside" are concepts, and concepts exist in thought, then does experience have an "in" and "out" ?
I am trying to walk around without a head most of the time now and I have to say it does take a weight off your shoulders, so to speak.
hehehe :)

so..

where are you at with this investigation?

is there a separate self in any way, in any form?

can you control anything that the first person character does?

-

with Love.

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barrie1
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby barrie1 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:05 pm

Hi Cosmik
but in direct experience, to me anyway sensations feel to be at different locations.
look closely at this. is there anything that suggests location other than thought? is location anything more than a concept?
I will need to keep looking at this.
so..

where are you at with this investigation?
Good question. There is no clear, unshakeable recognition of there being no self, more a sort of disinterest in the idea that there is a self. The word ‘I’ does not have the same power it had but there are still concerns over finances in the future etc if I was truly living in the present moment would that be a concern? I do see everything more as one experience but it is as though the truth that things are just happening without a person in control is staring me in the face but I can’t see it.
is there a separate self in any way, in any form?
I can’t find one
can you control anything that the first person character does?
The body and mind seem to be in control

Taking stock of where I am with this is disappointing as I thought I might be getting somewhere but I today feel as far away as ever. I need to try and see that this feeling of disappointment is just a feeling arising and that it does not belong to anyone.

Barrie

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cosmiK
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby cosmiK » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:44 am

Hey :)
The word ‘I’ does not have the same power it had but there are still concerns over finances in the future etc if I was truly living in the present moment would that be a concern?
Don't worry about comparing what-is to a judgement about how "living in the present moment" would be. That is attachment to more images of how an "awakened" person "living in the present moment" should be. Concerns may/probably will continue to arise even after the self is seen through.
Instead of wondering about concerns, and living in the present moment, just notice if there is actually anyone that could ever worry about finances? is there a person that could ever live in the present moment?
The body and mind seem to be in control
Well, I believe we established that the "body" was just an experience just like a tree, the sun, raining and the floor is. Can an experience be in control of another experience?

I believe we also covered "mind" as just a label referring to a stream of thoughts. Can thoughts ever control anything?

Is the "body" and "mind" any more personal than the clouds?

if all is just experience, as in, there is ONLY experience, here and now, then what could ever be in control over anything else? It seems only thought divides experience in to X and Y and then says that X causes/controls Y. But we are looking for the reality of this APART from thought, for within thought there is all sorts of nonsense :)
Taking stock of where I am with this is disappointing as I thought I might be getting somewhere but I today feel as far away as ever. I need to try and see that this feeling of disappointment is just a feeling arising and that it does not belong to anyone.
You're doing great :)

and there is no-one there that can get anywhere. Put attention simply on this assumed self that can ever get anywhere with an apparent investigation.

Explain more on where you feel stuck, and we can tackle these sticking points.

-

Lots of Love.

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barrie1
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby barrie1 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:50 pm

Hi Cosmik

I am trying to get some traction to get focus back on the enquiry.
Is the "body" and "mind" any more personal than the clouds?
I see what you are saying but there is a residual belief in self which does make the ‘body’ and ‘mind’ seem more personal.
Explain more on where you feel stuck, and we can tackle these sticking points.
I think I am getting stuck on there being no control. For example when you suggest putting attention on the assumed self who is putting attention on and how can that be done without some control.
You're doing great
Thanks, I'm not convinced but I certainly appreciate the encouragement.

Barrie

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cosmiK
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby cosmiK » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:50 am

Hello there :)
I see what you are saying but there is a residual belief in self which does make the ‘body’ and ‘mind’ seem more personal.
Okay let us ZERO in on this :)

What is this beLIEf exactly? Write it concisely here. Write freely.

Then tell me what exactly in present moment experience, BESIDES thought, gives evidence that it is more personal?

And where is the person exactly?

where/what is this self? find it in direct experience and describe it here.

What besides thought claims the "body" and "mind" ?
I think I am getting stuck on there being no control. For example when you suggest putting attention on the assumed self who is putting attention on and how can that be done without some control.
Well, do you find a "self" in direct experience that is exerting control over anything else?

do you find a separate X that can exert influence over a separate Y? do these separate 'things' or 'points' exist apart from thought?

It may seems that 'control' happens, but what we are looking at here is the assumed "controller" / "I" behind all of this. Sure ... attention is focused, things are done, responses happen, thinking happens... but can you find this self or "I" that focuses, does, responds or thinks? Stare directly at this supposed "I" that is at the helm of life. Does it exist apart from thought?
Thanks, I'm not convinced but I certainly appreciate the encouragement.
:) There is no "I" that can be convinced, just thoughts about one.

-

If I were to ask you to explain how the illusion of the separate self maintains itself from moment to moment, afresh and new, could you explain how it works?
(give it your best shot... and refer to your own direct experience FIRST, then comment)

-

Lots of Love.

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barrie1
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby barrie1 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:35 pm

Hi Cosmik

Hope these replies reveal where more work is needed.
What is this beLIEf exactly? Write it concisely here. Write freely.
The belief is from years of being in the habit of calling these body feelings my foot, head, arm etc
Then tell me what exactly in present moment experience, BESIDES thought, gives evidence that it is more personal?
The feelings are alive sensations whereas seeing clouds, trees etc are perceptions. This set of feelings always around with this same body image unlike clouds etc.
And where is the person exactly?

where/what is this self? find it in direct experience and describe it here.
I never have been able to find a self
What besides thought claims the "body" and "mind" ?
Without thought there is nothing to claim them but even then it is as if there is a hidden subtext that they belong to a someone.
It may seems that 'control' happens, but what we are looking at here is the assumed "controller" / "I" behind all of this. Sure ... attention is focused, things are done, responses happen, thinking happens... but can you find this self or "I" that focuses, does, responds or thinks? Stare directly at this supposed "I" that is at the helm of life. Does it exist apart from thought?
It certainly seems as if control happens. There is intention and the intended thing happens. Where the intention comes from is another question. I can’t stare at a supposed I as I do not know where that would be. There is no controller as such in consciousness, the focusing, doing, responding and thinking are being done whether by a subconscious or what I don’t know, but it acts in concert with thoughts. Say I do the raising the hand experiment then the intention to raise the hand is there but it doesn’t necessarily happen immediately, the thought comes up ‘raise the hand’ but it doesn’t have to be acted on. The hand might raise later on an impulse but I have never found where that impulse came from but it is carrying out an action that was planned in thought.
If I were to ask you to explain how the illusion of the separate self maintains itself from moment to moment, afresh and new, could you explain how it works?
(give it your best shot... and refer to your own direct experience FIRST, then comment)
It happens by the attachment of the word ‘I’ to actions and the word ‘my’ to objects. This body having just finished the washing up would say ‘I have just finished the washing up’ now I could say ‘I am cold’ meaning that this body is cold. For me being absorbed in the private world of thought maintains the illusion as thought leads a never ending dance never allowing the space to question where the thoughts are coming from, they are easily just assumed to be ‘my’ thoughts.
The word ‘I’ is used to refer to more than just the body though, it is referring to a body with thoughts and concepts of personality, a past and future etc. The ‘I’ pointer is then believed to be an independent real thing rather than just a pointer and it is this that causes the confusion. When there is belief in this ‘I’ then if this body and thoughts is ‘I’ then everything that is not ‘I’ is other and separate.

Barrie

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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby cosmiK » Sun Jan 20, 2013 7:36 am

Hey :)
Hope these replies reveal where more work is needed.
Yes... keep investigating and keep expressing where you are so we can tackle all of it.
The belief is from years of being in the habit of calling these body feelings my foot, head, arm etc
thought clamors to maintain its self-referencing throne, certainly... but keep looking at these tactile-sensations that thought calls "body" and divides in to "food, head, arm" and then adds a "my".
where is this "my" besides thought?
The feelings are alive sensations whereas seeing clouds, trees etc are perceptions. This set of feelings always around with this same body image unlike clouds etc.
What do you mean by "alive sensations" ... that sounds like perception to me, just like clouds, and trees are.

Yes, since Life appears to be witnessed from a first person perspective, that is just a misunderstanding. The fact that those feelings appear more frequently and in apparent similar formation than other phenomena cause thought to claim those as self, and everything else as other in some way.

Look at this division you are making though... you are dividing it in to "alive sensations" (self) and everything else as perception (the world/other/else). Look nakedly here... is there an actual dividing line here besides what thought says? is there an actual difference here apart from thought?

there is perception... but what besides thought divides it?

and look at this first person character again.
try this exercise. look at the floor, or an object.

now.... is the first person looking at the object?
if the answer is yes, then how come you don't conclude that the object is looking at the first person?
why isn't the object called self?

is awareness/consciousness located in Barrie/the first person?

has Barrie ever done anything? has Barrie ever thought anything?
is Barrie aware of anything?
I never have been able to find a self
Right... there is no such thing. But if you look at this latest response from you... there is a belief in some self... that the 'body' is self, etc... let us detangle these thought-webs.
Without thought there is nothing to claim them but even then it is as if there is a hidden subtext that they belong to a someone.
Let's keep bringing that up to the surface and burning it.
It certainly seems as if control happens. There is intention and the intended thing happens. Where the intention comes from is another question. I can’t stare at a supposed I as I do not know where that would be. There is no controller as such in consciousness, the focusing, doing, responding and thinking are being done whether by a subconscious or what I don’t know, but it acts in concert with thoughts. Say I do the raising the hand experiment then the intention to raise the hand is there but it doesn’t necessarily happen immediately, the thought comes up ‘raise the hand’ but it doesn’t have to be acted on. The hand might raise later on an impulse but I have never found where that impulse came from but it is carrying out an action that was planned in thought.
there are these apparently separate events, such as thinking, intention, movement, decision, etc, and thought draws causation from the apparent meaningful correlation between these events, but it all just happens. there is no one doing any of this. all you have to do is look. and by look i mean refer to direct exprience. don't settle for an assumption like a "subconscious"... just really notice.... is there a doer/controller in direct experience?

then ask... is "control" and "automatic" really any different besides the causation/correlation that thought weaves?

( this is VERY important... please spend time with this )
This body having just finished the washing up would say ‘I have just finished the washing up’ now I could say ‘I am cold’ meaning that this body is cold.
The body never does anything... it is just another happening just like everything else. thoughts would argue with this and quite many theories about how it's different, but the body is just a perception just like everything else.

and the body is never cold, there is just a sensation. the "body" is a sensation and sometimes there is a sensation that thought labels "cold" and even says "that the body is cold"... or even worse... "my body is cold"... but what does direct experience reveal about this? does it reveal an actual body, or just sensations?
For me being absorbed in the private world of thought maintains the illusion as thought leads a never ending dance never allowing the space to question where the thoughts are coming from, they are easily just assumed to be ‘my’ thoughts.
there is no one that is absorbed in thoughts... just thoughts about someone that could be absorbed in thoughts.

And "my" is a thought... a thought cannot own thoughts... although there are constant thought references to an owner (which only exists in thought) that owns thoughts!
The word ‘I’ is used to refer to more than just the body though, it is referring to a body with thoughts and concepts of personality, a past and future etc
^--- all of this exists purely in thought. there is just and only Experience. Just this.
When there is belief in this ‘I’ then if this body and thoughts is ‘I’ then everything that is not ‘I’ is other and separate.
Exactly... let us break this entire belief structure down and burn it. It is ONLY a belief structure... that's it.
no self in any of that.

-

with Love.

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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby barrie1 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 10:32 pm

Hi Cosmick

Thanks for breaking my last post down in the way you have, the questions seem to be hitting the right spot.
thought clamors to maintain its self-referencing throne,
I guess this is just a way of speaking but does thought really have an agenda?
What do you mean by "alive sensations" ... that sounds like perception to me, just like clouds, and trees are.
What I meant was that the tingle or buzz like an energy whereas the seeing of clouds is a flat experience in comparison
there is perception... but what besides thought divides it?
I cannot draw a dividing line but seeing and feeling are completely different ‘flavours’ for want of a better term, that do not leach into one another.
now.... is the first person looking at the object?
if the answer is yes, then how come you don't conclude that the object is looking at the first person?
why isn't the object called self?

is awareness/consciousness located in Barrie/the first person?
Sorry, you completely lost me on that one!
is awareness/consciousness located in Barrie/the first person?
has Barrie ever done anything? has Barrie ever thought anything?
is Barrie aware of anything?
This is a real koan of a question for me. My mind, ok thoughts, struggle to grasp it, but looking from ‘below the neck’ doesn’t help either, just puts me in a strange place of not being able to answer.
then ask... is "control" and "automatic" really any different besides the causation/correlation that thought weaves?
( this is VERY important... please spend time with this )
In a control situation there is more attention or focus. I don’t know if I am noticing more or am actually spending more time on ‘automatic’. I have been waiting for an opportunity to check a good control situation but none has really come up, that I have noticed anyway.
let us break this entire belief structure down and burn it. It is ONLY a belief structure... that's it.
no self in any of that.
What is believing this? not saying it’s a self, I would say mind, but a thought can’t believe. There is never a what, there is just belief until there isn’t. Why did I ask?

Barrie

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cosmiK
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby cosmiK » Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:42 am

Hey :)

Down the rabbit hole it seems to go :)
thought clamors to maintain its self-referencing throne,
I guess this is just a way of speaking but does thought really have an agenda?
indeed, it seems that thought is the only place that thought has any agenda :) what do you feel about it?
it seems we can say that thought habitually attempts to keep alive structures that we can call belief, and the biggest one is this belief in self. this is why this dialogue happens so those belief structures are brought out and investigated.
What do you mean by "alive sensations" ... that sounds like perception to me, just like clouds, and trees are.
What I meant was that the tingle or buzz like an energy whereas the seeing of clouds is a flat experience in comparison
Yes, but most of these ideas are woven by thought over raw experience.
there is perception... but what besides thought divides it?
I cannot draw a dividing line but seeing and feeling are completely different ‘flavours’ for want of a better term, that do not leach into one another.
yes, i use the term flavors too. i understand, but focus on if they can be separated at all. focus on if there is any inherent separate isness to it (self).
does Barrie have self? are there actual individual objects? question the entire structure of perception. as always, the key to this is the self :) the foundation stone to this.
is awareness/consciousness located in Barrie/the first person?
has Barrie ever done anything? has Barrie ever thought anything?
is Barrie aware of anything?
This is a real koan of a question for me. My mind, ok thoughts, struggle to grasp it, but looking from ‘below the neck’ doesn’t help either, just puts me in a strange place of not being able to answer.
It is a koan in the sense that it is asking you to LOOK and see if the person you thought you were was ever aware of anything, ever did anything... just LOOK. don't be concerned about figuring anything out. there is no one to figure anything out, and just thoughts that struggle, again, to maintain a self referencing throne. this time that story is about a person that has a koan to solve to gain some insight.

this investigates the core... is there a person there... is the person self? is the person aware?

or is the person, just like trees, bees, birds and buildings all just equally appearances?

how is one appearance more self than other?
In a control situation there is more attention or focus. I don’t know if I am noticing more or am actually spending more time on ‘automatic’. I have been waiting for an opportunity to check a good control situation but none has really come up, that I have noticed anyway.
Re-read this last setence to me and look at it from the angle of there being a self there. LOOK and see where this self could be to control anything. or to focus or notice?
let us break this entire belief structure down and burn it. It is ONLY a belief structure... that's it.
no self in any of that.
What is believing this? not saying it’s a self, I would say mind, but a thought can’t believe. There is never a what, there is just belief until there isn’t. Why did I ask?
:) wonderfully put.

WHO/WHAT could believe?

there certainly seem to be beliefs until they are seen through, and those thoughts may continue to arise. but do they arise to anyone? are they thought by anyone?

Really look at this whole thing we are doing here.

this is the investigation in to the existence of individuality.

where is there an individual in this?

it is assumed that looking comes from the individual... the person... but does it?

is it really true?

dE is an invitation to find out for yourself, just by noticing and looking,
just do this.
is there a self? an individual? in any form? is any answer to any of that true in any way?

--

Lots of Love.

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barrie1
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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby barrie1 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:13 pm

Hi CosmiK

Just checking in.
does Barrie have self? are there actual individual objects? question the entire structure of perception. as always, the key to this is the self :) the foundation stone to this.
There are no individual objects when the world is looked at as a screen, separate objects can’t be taken out of a screen.

Going back to the group of questions you asked previously:
is awareness/consciousness located in Barrie/the first person?
has Barrie ever done anything? has Barrie ever thought anything?
is Barrie aware of anything?
I would say that Barrie is a label for use by others. It could be said that the only way of knowing if Barrie has done anything is through memory. Who or what is the Barrie that would be thinking. There are thoughts together with a feeling of ownership of those thoughts. Iam not the label Barrie, nor the label 'I', but there is awareness of these labels so it is not the Barrie that is aware of anything it is awareness that is aware of Barrie.

I need to spend more time looking at some of the other questions you raised such as whether there is a difference between what I called 'alive sensations' and other perception.

Barrie

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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby cosmiK » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:20 am

Hey :)

thanks for checking in. There was a lot of stuff in that last post... so take some time to sit with those pointers/questions and Look, and report as accurately as possible. Keep returning to the key question... is there a separate self, an individual, in any form? in any way?
There are no individual objects when the world is looked at as a screen, separate objects can’t be taken out of a screen.
Is there a world that is looked at? or just looking and then thought that comes along and labels some "self" "world" "objects". Everything is Inside/Out :)
. It could be said that the only way of knowing if Barrie has done anything is through memory. Who or what is the Barrie that would be thinking.
Exactly... Barrie and what he has done, both are thought constructions.

And, is there a thinker of thoughts? or is "The thinker of thoughts" just more thought-content, in the same fashion as this separate self/1st person/Barrie is?
There are thoughts together with a feeling of ownership of those thoughts.
Thoughts continue to burp up and self-reference, even after no-self is Seen. The difference is those thoughts are recognized as JUST thoughts. The content is seen as Empty. There is no self. "you" are a fabrication.
Iam not the label Barrie, nor the label 'I', but there is awareness of these labels so it is not the Barrie that is aware of anything it is awareness that is aware of Barrie.
Yes...

we can say there is "awareness" but careful not to make it in to some individual point that is watching everything else. "awareness" can turn in to another subtle self. Check and see if you can find a separate "Awareness" from everything that is noticed/observed? Thought loves to divide the indivisible in to a "seer" and "seen" but past those concepts do you find any division?

And as Barrie isn't aware of anything, and as Barrie arises in/as awareness, then is Barrie any more self than anything else that appears?

When you refer to Barrie, are you referring to an actual entity there that is observed by awareness? Is it clear that "Barrie" is just a label given to Experience (sensations + thought) arising fresh and anew in this timeless moment?
Place attention on how this "person" and "self" is created a-new and a-fresh... this is important.

-

Will await your next response to my previous post and the pointers in this one,

Lots of Love.

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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby barrie1 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:41 pm

Hi CosmiK

I have gone back to your previous post to pick up a few unanswered questions from that.
It is a koan in the sense that it is asking you to LOOK and see if the person you thought you were was ever aware of anything, ever did anything...
There was awareness and things were done. Very tempted to say ‘but by no-one’ but I need to check I am not just parroting here.
It goes back to thoughts – the person that I thought I was didn’t exist so couldn’t be aware or do anything. Any doing was either on auto or as a result of a thought from don’t know where.
is there a self? an individual? in any form? is any answer to any of that true in any way?
I cannot find a self. Without thought there is no story of an individual just what is seen and felt. In the seeing it is not possible to label what is seen as being an individual but with the sensations of heart beating, breathing etc there is an undercurrent of belief in them being an individual.
this investigates the core... is there a person there... is the person self? is the person aware?

or is the person, just like trees, bees, birds and buildings all just equally appearances?

how is one appearance more self than other?
Not sure about this as the person is more conceptual, the trees etc are real.
we can say there is "awareness" but careful not to make it in to some individual point that is watching everything else. "awareness" can turn in to another subtle self.
Is this why you avoid the use of the word ‘awareness’ and refer to ‘Experience’ instead?
When you refer to Barrie, are you referring to an actual entity there that is observed by awareness? Is it clear that "Barrie" is just a label given to Experience (sensations + thought) arising fresh and anew in this timeless moment?
Both, others refer to this physical body/mind as Barrie but I take it as a label for all the sensations and thoughts going on from this perspective.
Place attention on how this "person" and "self" is created a-new and a-fresh... this is important.
Do you mean the habitual references to memory to make and keep it as Barrie’s story?

Barrie

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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby cosmiK » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:01 pm

Hi... sorry about the delay in response. I have been very caught up with a few things.

One question... you say "sensations and thoughts going on from this perspective".... which perspective? Are there other perspectives? Other thoughts? Does cosmik has his own perspective? Isn't that just an assumption? Doesn't that assumption rest on the assumption that there is an individual with their own thoughts/sensations?

A wise friend once told me... "I tool LSD once and saw that the person was the hallucination"

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Re: Cosmik - Can you help?

Postby barrie1 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:53 pm

Hi Cosmik
Hi... sorry about the delay in response. I have been very caught up with a few things.
No worries, its usually me who is slow responding.
One question... you say "sensations and thoughts going on from this perspective".... which perspective? Are there other perspectives? Other thoughts? Does cosmik has his own perspective? Isn't that just an assumption? Doesn't that assumption rest on the assumption that there is an individual with their own thoughts/sensations?
This here seems to be a perspective. I can't say for sure if there are any other perspectives.
A wise friend once told me... "I tool LSD once and saw that the person was the hallucination"
That must have been quite a trip.

Barrie


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