Zen Of Chaos-this is your thread

[ZenOfchaos]

thought is believed by what? Isnt the belief in thought just another thought of claiming the thought to be yours? Are you in control of when and what you think?

lol yeah, thought is usually taken at face value. Taken by what? I don't know. The brain is hard-wired to believe what it sees (try telling a schizophrenic that god isn't standing beside him!). Thoughts are either believed at face value or are analysed against an existing database of thoughts and beliefs. Like if I say "my memory is awesome", the thought isn't believed because other thoughts (memories ironically) come up to say there is many things that have been forgotten so that thought is not true.

No control over thought. its when there is no awareness of being aware of thought that identification with them happens so easily.

You already see that thoughts follow each other in a string to get something done. Now is there an I directing that thought or is "I" just another thought that seems to have extra importance to it?

"I" is generally automatically assumed. I'm thinking about what i have to get ready for tonight for the morning ("I" is automatically assumed in that thought). Then there are thoughts of what is happening tomorrow and what is likely to be needed. Then there are thoughts of what can be left for the morning time. The chain is logical but isn't directed by any thing.

Take a deep breath, exhale. Relax. Sit back. And just look at what is real. Look at your surroundings. The sights and sounds, the smells, the feelings and sensations and the thoughts. Watch as they all do their thing. And see how there is nothing there making any of that happen. How too, there is nothing creating the thoughts and the feelings and the sensations; doing the seeing, hearing the sounds, beating the heart and pumping the blood, breathing in and out, scratching a nose, registering hunger or thirst. It all just happens.

Just as it always has. It actually is that simple. All that's necessary is to see that the belief "I am doing this" is just a thought, which itself is not being done by anything, but is just a product of a lifetime of conditioning and instruction.

An assumption. But the actual truth is that when you look at life, there is no discernible, identifiable 'thing' that does it.

It lives. Just like the 'it' in 'it rains'. There is no 'it'. Just living.

Drop everything learned and practiced for the space of time you post here. Start fresh. Baby fresh. Innocent kid kind of fresh. Naive. Because instead of looking, you're jumping right into what you think you're supposed to know about this already.

That's gonna trip you up real bad, ZOC. Real bad.

Give the seeker a break. Just look plainly instead of seeking.

Remember, it takes just one look, one moment of seeing what's actually real, and what's not.

Not even do more or less, just the looking, is there a 'you' behind doing this?

Intellectual knowledge is just thought so is irrelevant for seeing there is nothing there to own knowledge!

Nothing there where an 'I' should have been indeed. LOOK!

What is this fear? Is there a chooser to have the fear to not see this, or is it just fear?

no fear at the moment. well that's not quite true. There is a fear of NOT seeing this through because the thoughts of self have been the source of suffering and this mind doesn't want to go there again.

in what you are saying about getting tripped up and starting baby fresh i agree. intellectuallising and conceptualising happens so quickly and automatically I find it very very difficult to keep attention in the present and focused on pure looking. Attention gets caught up in the flow of thoughts and observing what is going on goes out the window.

in saying that i sat in the park for a while today and it can be so peaceful when thoughts slow down and you become aware of everything in awareness. There there is a stronger feeling of presence and it can be glimpsed that everything is just happening.

I think i have an expectation that oneness and automaticity should be like a satori type experience to some degree on a permanent level. Like you shouldn't have to keep reminding yourself or looking in order for it to be known, believed or experienced. Feel free to kick this expectation into touch.

[ZenOfchaos]

Jeffy....rohit?

what is life like after liberation?

is it a battle...a constant fight against the illusion?

[Rohit]

"I" is generally automatically assumed. I'm thinking about what i have to get ready for tonight for the morning ("I" is automatically assumed in that thought). Then there are thoughts of what is happening tomorrow and what is likely to be needed. Then there are thoughts of what can be left for the morning time. The chain is logical but isn't directed by any thing.

what is seeing thoughts arising and passing?
Don't answer from what you know, or what you read, answer from direct SEEING.

I think i have an expectation that oneness and automaticity should be like a satori type experience to some degree on a permanent level. Like you shouldn't have to keep reminding yourself or looking in order for it to be known, believed or experienced. Feel free to kick this expectation into touch.

What is the experience of being absent? What is the experience of being present?
From your own experience alone, answer the question,How and when did your sense of separateness arise?

what is life like after liberation?
is it a battle...a constant fight against the illusion?

There is no you anywhere, that's truth.

You don't need evidence to see that the sky is blue do you?
This is the same thing, you don't need evidence to prove the absence of self, because there already is no such thing as a self, all you have to do is see that.

Yes it is quite confusing. This confusion is not an accident, it is the result of the mistaken belief that there is a you. Because of this error you can't even be sure what I means. If it's not totally obvious what "I" means then maybe it doesn't mean what you think it does, eh?

How do you see it? Great question. The best way I can describe it is this. You have a belief that there is a you. By that I mean, you literally have a strong feeling that there is someone there, an individual you call "I", who lives your life. It's not just a convention of language for you, it's an actual belief. But it's not like a belief in gravity, which you can test by dropping a pencil. No, this is a completely untested belief which has been conditioned in you over time. In order to test the belief, you need to look at whether it's true. Is it true that there is a you, living your life? Can you see this person? Are you really there? Focus and look, and the truth will become apparent.

[ZenOfchaos]

what is seeing thoughts arising and passing?
Don't answer from what you know, or what you read, answer from direct SEEING.

They just appear. There is awareness of them but nothing doing the awareing. there is nothing I can tell that is doing the seeing. awareness as a a thing can't even be found.

What is the experience of being absent? What is the experience of being present?

I guess we're always present in the sense that we're always here but the feeling of being absent is when I am totally immersed in thought. when attention is entirely directed toward thought so there is no awareness of what's real, what's happening in the present moment. Like when i'm doing research work reading journals and so on, thoughts occupy awareness. thoughts of what the text is, what it means, analysis, thoughts of past and future; being immersed in thought. When thoughts of past and future subside and the noise of thinking settles (which isn't so often!) is when I feel 'present'.

From your own experience alone, answer the question,How and when did your sense of separateness arise?

i have to think back for that one. For me it seemed to rise more strongly in my mid-teens. There was a world of thought about "me" that was vastly different to how "I" seemed to everyone else. Like there was real me inside that nobody could see. How? It was thoughts about me and about how to behave. So there was a knowing that in certain situations one had to act in a certain way but on the inside the thoughts were opposite and extremely destructive. Other behaviours were designed to reinforce that sense of the inner me, or lent support to it. Added to this was thoughts of comparing that me to other people and how 'they' had better lives or were better people than that me.
[this feeling of an inner me that is incompatible wit the expressive me is no longer the case]
Aside from this negative and destructive me that was formed, there was also the association of thought and thoughts about experience that were unique to this entity compared to other entities. this unique world view also gave rise to a feeling of separateness to others. Again, i believe this formed a stronger bond in the mid-teens onward.

You don't need evidence to see that the sky is blue do you?
This is the same thing, you don't need evidence to prove the absence of self, because there already is no such thing as a self, all you have to do is see that.

Yes it is quite confusing. This confusion is not an accident, it is the result of the mistaken belief that there is a you. Because of this error you can't even be sure what I means. If it's not totally obvious what "I" means then maybe it doesn't mean what you think it does, eh?

yes, I has no idea what I means. There is no tangible obvious entity that I can assert is a me yet there is life, individuality, thought, experience, consciousness.

How do you see it? Great question. The best way I can describe it is this. You have a belief that there is a you. By that I mean, you literally have a strong feeling that there is someone there, an individual you call "I", who lives your life. It's not just a convention of language for you, it's an actual belief. But it's not like a belief in gravity, which you can test by dropping a pencil. No, this is a completely untested belief which has been conditioned in you over time. In order to test the belief, you need to look at whether it's true. Is it true that there is a you, living your life? Can you see this person? Are you really there? Focus and look, and the truth will become apparent.

there is some fear arising today when looking at this. have to go out now but I will keep looking and report back in a few hours.

[Rohit]

Good :)Keep writing....and look!
Notice that thoughts come and go by themselves. They are just thoughts. And there is nothing that controls them, they roll one after another and there is no way to stop or get rid of them. Like a river that is running freely.

Look at thoughts as the labelling mechanism. Experience happens, labelling follows. Noticing, observation, witnessing happens, labels pop right after.

Notice body breathing, look, is it breathing by itself of is there a breather? Label says “I breathe”. Is there an I that does the breathing? How about when you sleep? Does breathing need a breather?

Same with walking, eating, listening to music, dancing. Every experience is followed by “I did this” comment. But look closer; is there a walker, an eater, a dancer?
Play with the labelling for a bit, notice that label I is just a label, a word that precedes other words in the label. Right now reading happens effortlessly and if you just stop for a second, thoughts appear and start labelling………I is one of thoughts. I read. Really?
Can a thought think? Can a thought do anything?
So if I is a thought and thought does not think, there is no thinker? Is it true?

[ZenOfchaos]

Good :)Keep writing....and look!
Notice that thoughts come and go by themselves. They are just thoughts. And there is nothing that controls them, they roll one after another and there is no way to stop or get rid of them. Like a river that is running freely.

Look at thoughts as the labelling mechanism. Experience happens, labelling follows. Noticing, observation, witnessing happens, labels pop right after.

Notice body breathing, look, is it breathing by itself of is there a breather? Label says “I breathe”. Is there an I that does the breathing? How about when you sleep? Does breathing need a breather?

Same with walking, eating, listening to music, dancing. Every experience is followed by “I did this” comment. But look closer; is there a walker, an eater, a dancer?
Play with the labelling for a bit, notice that label I is just a label, a word that precedes other words in the label. Right now reading happens effortlessly and if you just stop for a second, thoughts appear and start labelling………I is one of thoughts. I read. Really?
Can a thought think? Can a thought do anything?
So if I is a thought and thought does not think, there is no thinker? Is it true?

I sat yesterday and wrote down everything I could about thoughts. their qualities and attributes and so on. was therapeutic! I won't copy the 5 pages into this post but the conclusion is is that there is no thinker. Thoughts happen; they pop up, no-one choosing which thoughts. its also impossible to catch the beginning of a thought! they come up so quick and its only noticed a fraction of a split second after. noticed by what you ask? by attention.

[jeffdilbeck]

Sorry, I thought you left. :)

ZOC, you could tell me where you stand with no self. I'll the last posts before I go further.

Jeff

[ZenOfchaos]

Sorry, I thought you left. :)

ZOC, you could tell me where you stand with no self. I'll the last posts before I go further.

Jeff

It's ok, I was never really here :p

Um... think I have yet to really experience seeing beyond the illusion. Logically and conceptually I get it. No separate self can be found. no thinker can be found. It can be seen how behaviours are done without a doer yet i think it really needs to be seen/experienced how life is living itself, and everything is on automatic, where there is only awareness of what is going on.

I believe that's where things are at.

[Rohit]

There is no effort in this, this isn't some puzzle you have crack.

It's not hard, you are just making it harder for yourself.

Don't think about looking, just look for a self and tell me what you see.

Effortless observing is only ever what's happening. Even if you close your eyes, there is still effortless observing.

And that's all you have to see. :)

[ZenOfchaos]

There is no effort in this, this isn't some puzzle you have crack.

It's not hard, you are just making it harder for yourself.

Don't think about looking, just look for a self and tell me what you see.

Effortless observing is only ever what's happening. Even if you close your eyes, there is still effortless observing.

And that's all you have to see. :)

I dunno man. I don't see a self, no man pulling the strings, but nothing changes. Still carrying water and chopping wood and selfing. I'm trying not to make this into a puzzle. Trying to ease the thought stream long enough to look without analysis. I don't know what I'm doung or not doing or what to do differently or the same.
There is no ease, no peace, no effortlessness. Awareness is awareing all the time, yes without effort. But the awareness is filled with effort and as much as I can see life doing its thing when looking, as soon as looking is done or forgotten its back to the self selfing.

[ZenOfchaos]

Anybody around?

Not really sure what to do or which direction to go.

There is no separate self directing life. There just isn't. I cannot find any evidence of it except the feeling of being bound in this character. And that can only be seen as thought/feeling.

Similarly I don't feel separate from the world....yet I don't feel oneness either.

Pure awareness, pure consciousness, the source, the divine, god... all seem illusive. maybe these are just thought forms and don't exist. Or maybe they are thought forms that point to something real.

aNy guidance jeff, rohit, anyone?

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hey ZenOfChaos,

As it's 3-1, hope you don't mind me popping in. :)

Anybody around?

Not really sure what to do or which direction to go.

There is no separate self directing life. There just isn't. I cannot find any evidence of it except the feeling of being bound in this character. And that can only be seen as thought/feeling.

Similarly I don't feel separate from the world....yet I don't feel oneness either.

Pure awareness, pure consciousness, the source, the divine, god... all seem illusive. maybe these are just thought forms and don't exist. Or maybe they are thought forms that point to something real.

aNy guidance jeff, rohit, anyone?

I haven't read any of the earlier threads, so just responding to this.

Just to see where you are at, what happens when a hand is raised and seen?

What's the first knowing? Is it - this is my hand? Is there a looker?

Many thanks,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

Hey ZenOfChaos,

As it's 3-1, hope you don't mind me popping in. :)

I haven't read any of the earlier threads, so just responding to this.

Just to see where you are at, what happens when a hand is raised and seen?

What's the first knowing? Is it - this is my hand? Is there a looker?

Many thanks,
John

Hi John. You are very welcome here :)

well, since starting this process, first it's an observation of it happening. There is awareness of the hand movement and if it is spontaneous then a thought arises that says "I didn't choose to do that.it happened on its own".
If it is forced like in answering your question there is a looking at the thought process prior to it and how it relates to self.
Not so much of 'this is my hand'.
hmmn, no looker. can't choose to look or not. Just happens :) There is a knowing that it is this particular set of eyeballs and brain doing the looking which causes a little conflict but no looker doing the looker behind the eyeballs and brain!

thanks john

[s-p-a-c-e]

Hi ZenOfChaos,

Hey ZenOfChaos,

As it's 3-1, hope you don't mind me popping in. :)

I haven't read any of the earlier threads, so just responding to this.

Just to see where you are at, what happens when a hand is raised and seen?

What's the first knowing? Is it - this is my hand? Is there a looker?

Many thanks,
John

Hi John. You are very welcome here :)

well, since starting this process, first it's an observation of it happening. There is awareness of the hand movement and if it is spontaneous then a thought arises that says "I didn't choose to do that.it happened on its own".
If it is forced like in answering your question there is a looking at the thought process prior to it and how it relates to self.
Not so much of 'this is my hand'.
hmmn, no looker. can't choose to look or not. Just happens :) There is a knowing that it is this particular set of eyeballs and brain doing the looking which causes a little conflict but no looker doing the looker behind the eyeballs and brain!

thanks john

So, what appears to be missing?

Thanks,
John

[ZenOfchaos]

So, what appears to be missing?

Thanks,
John

That sense of clarity. I guess that feeling that something should be different, some kind of confirmation that liberation is done. I don't have a precise answer. It just feels that there should be an ease, or flow or peace.

These are expectations I know, but I want to be sure I've not just formed a new belief and am playing a role rather than living life genuinely liberated.