Ready to dive in...

[vinceschubert]

ix, i thought this might be of interest to you and Rose.
i'll give you the author and links later (if you request them), but for the moment see what is speaking to you...
i have also amended a couple of lines. (tell you of them later too)

Until I was about 25 years old, I had no interest in spiritual matters and all I knew about them was what I had learned in religious education lessons at school.
Around 1985 I joined a fraternal order which sent me regular monthly lessons in mysticism and ‘universal law’.
After a couple of years I found it a bit stodgy and became interested in the teachings of a deceased Indian teacher offered, again, in monthly lessons, and also a guru-disciple relationship – even though he was already dead!
A couple of years and several spiritual techniques later, I was bored with it and happened upon a book by a western guru. This book told me that I was already awake and needed no liberation. The truth of what he was saying was obvious. However, he then went on, (in the next few years and over the course of quite a few books), to proclaim himself the world teacher and offered a guru-disciple relationship with those who were interested.
Well, I was having none of it, although over the following five years I read a few more of his books and just about every other spiritual book I could get my hands on. But, nothing really cut it for me like this western guru’s book had done. Somewhere in me I knew it was true; that I was already awake and free but, I was still confused because I seemed to be just an ordinary bloke with all the usual sorts of problems that ordinary people have.
Anyway, I got sick of this guy’s stuff and everyone else’s and then I hit the Advaita scene. I read everything by and about Ramana Maharshi, Jean Klein and Nisargadatta Maharaj and everything by Ramesh Balseker.
A lot of the confusion that I had felt before went. I understood that all there is is THIS, but why did I still feel like a separate me? What was the missing link? If I was already awake and free then why did my life seem like a pile of dung?
In 1997 I read Tony Parson’s first book called “The Open Secret”. I contacted him and he invited me to join a discussion at a private house in London.
I went along and sat in the crowded room and it became clear to me how much mystique I had built around the whole ‘enlightenment’ drama.
Tony looked like an ordinary man. He spoke with humour and patience. I listened to what he said in response to people’s questions and I was struck by the simplicity and clarity of his answers. I went to more discussions over the next year and spoke to Tony on the phone whenever I could.
I wanted to make him into my ‘teacher’ but he explained that he had nothing to teach, that there was nothing to learn. He pointed out that there is only THIS and that I am already that. Although I had accepted this already, it really began to sink in. Tony pointed out that there need not be any kind of ‘event’ associated with the recognition of your nature as THIS.
Well, as it happened, in September 1998 an event did occur. I was gardening and it was drizzling with rain. I looked up and there was a subtle sense of ‘me’ not being there. I got on my bike and cycled around the lanes and it seemed like there was a movie going on without any effort needed on my behalf to be taking part in it.
Even though Tony had pointed out that no event is necessarily associated with the recognition of your nature as THIS, I had obviously still been subtly waiting for one because now that this event, or experience, was occurring I gave myself ‘permission’ to be awake. I had been waiting for confirmation.
I rang Tony and excitedly explained what was going on and, having given myself ‘permission’ to be awake, I allowed myself to speak from the clarity of understanding that had already unfolded during the process of my seeking before the event took place. I no longer related as a seeker to Tony and he recognised that I now spoke from my nature as THIS.
Now, having associated this experience with being awake, I started to get a bit precious about it.
I woke the next day. Was it still there? Yes! Then, after a few days, I noticed that the experience was wearing off a bit, but a couple of days later it was full on again. After a couple of weeks of the experience coming and going and of trying to hold on to it, I went to one of Tony’s discussions and the experience seemed to be re-charged by being there but then a few days later the experience disappeared altogether. I didn’t say anything to Tony about it and I didn’t go to the meetings for a while. I felt confused again.
Then I happened to read a book called “Collision with the Infinite” by a woman called Suzanne Segal who, over many years, had an experience going on constantly. After several years it was confirmed by certain ‘teachers’ that it was ‘enlightenment’. Then she got ill and died, and, in the afterword to Suzanne’s book which was written by a therapist friend of hers, I read that near the end she had become confused and frustrated because the experience had left her.
That was it! Suddenly it was absolutely clear to me that these experiences – I call them transcendental events or experiences – actually have nothing to do with clarity. A transcendental experience can last a few seconds or ten years or maybe even the rest of your life, but a transcendental experience is just that. An experience. Many people have had these experiences and then the experience is gone and often the person is left with a desire for more of it. They think they have been given a taste of ‘enlightenment’, when all that has happened is that they have had a transcendental experience. Walking down the street is an experience, but it’s an ordinary one so you don’t go looking for more of it.
The confusion was gone. I knew what I am without any doubt and it was obvious that I already had been that all my life. I no longer required any transcendental experience to prove it to me.
The whole of my ‘spiritual’ search had been added on to what I already am and I also understood why people are confused around this whole issue. Why they confuse ‘spirituality’ with clarity. This recognition of my true nature was not associated with any transcendental event or experience. It was clear that a transcendental experience of any kind is easily confusing if it occurs before you recognise with clarity your nature as THIS.
It is obvious that the transcendental event that was experienced had nothing to do with clarity of recognition. The occurrence of the event brought my confusion to a head and allowed me to see clearly how I had been subtly waiting for an event as permission to be what I already am.
I see now that no transcendental event has any significance in the light of the plain, ordinary, everyday clarity of what you really are.

[ixturtle]

thank you for this. curious of course about the lines you've changed but i'm only asking if it makes sense for me to know. i am certainly guilty of waiting for an experience for permission. and i totally get that an experience is transient and that for anything to be TRUE, it would have to always be true, and thus there's nothing to get, including an experience that confirms the getting. but when he says the recognition of the truth of who you are... there is still a sense of muddledness here. WHO AM I? neti neti neti, i know. i guess it's just relaxing into that. but meanwhile, this sense of me persists-- as story perhaps. well, as story, most certainly, but the story is so compelling and every thought and interaction seems to confirm it...

what i take from the post though, is to give myself permission to recognize what's here without needing anything fancy to happen, without needing an "experience" of oneness say, or an experience that's different in any way from what's already here... though as you say, when the feet touch down there is a slight tinge of a difference. so that's the tricky bit.

i have had some insights about "not touching" lately, and also the drive underneath "touching"-- whether it's to support resolution between my partner and his brother or, more generally (like Rose), to save the world. in both cases, the desire "to touch" is built on an assumption that there is something wrong, which is hard to argue with in both cases...! but i'm starting to see and explore the space where it might be possible to just let it be, where the assumption is seen as story and that's that.

the good student in me feels a little overwhelmed by the request to read linda's string too as i already feel that keeping up with myself and rose is a lot combined with everything else in my life. but most likely the conditioned mind will head over to her string anyway... ha haha!

love love,
ix

[vinceschubert]

this sense of me persists-- as story perhaps. well, as story, most certainly, but the story is so compelling and every thought and interaction seems to confirm it...

This may be the crux for you. You still worship thought.
You SEE that thoughts just arise. You SEE that most are triggered by other thoughts (making a story). You SEE that interpretation of SENSEsation is done by thought. You SEE that thoughts arise AFTER the original Experiencing. You SEE that thought has NO intrinsic credibility. ...and yet you still say "yes master" to thoughts. ????

i knew i was stretching it to ask you to 'do' Lindas' thread, but thought is was worth it.
It will take only 1 millisecond of 1 realization to 'kick' you through the gate & and it may well be in her thread as she has similarities with your situation.

[ixturtle]

Oy, you are SO right.

Funny, because earlier today somebody sent me a Tolle video where he acts out our obsession with thought as a dog with his nose to the ground following a scent completely unaware of anything else. (Yes, I know I'm not supposed to watch or read anything other than this site but my professional and social worlds completely encompass this stuff so it's hard to detach from all other influences. But if you would like me to recommit to that agreement, I will do my best...) Anyway, the point is... YES, thought still is running the show even though there is awareness (which gets formulated into more thoughts) that it's a bunch of BS. Sigh...

I did make it through 6 pages of Linda's string (I'm figuring that if the bills really need to get paid, then they would get paid... hahahaha!). Goes much quicker anyway, because unlike Rose and I she seems much less of a thought worshiper. I loved this bit of hers:

Linda: There's no credit to take for the kind of tree I am. Nature is the manager of all of it...

Beautiful. Love love love. If when I get to the end of her string I have something to say I will put her bits in green in honor of that quote. :-)

Where the string lost me was in the bit about awareness switching bodies. My answer was that awareness is just aware of the bits of information it gets sent through the body and mind. Mind sends thoughts about the body/past, except now those thoughts reference a different body/past. And there would be no other thoughts to compare it to. It would be just "this life"-- this moment with raw sensation and thoughts about past, present and future. No way to tell the difference because awareness is like a satellite receiver-- if you change source of the messages, satellite reflects that but it wouldn't be able to compare the two. (Perhaps this is a wrong understanding of awareness?)

In any case, "No difference" was Jeff's answer too, except he talks about it all being "one life" and Linda seemed to get that in some way that I do not and that seemed to push her right through (at least on page 6-- since there are 6 more pages I'm assuming there's still something in the way). But in any case, I really didn't get what he was saying about it all being one life-- is this something you can illuminate or would it be more skillful to drop this line of thinking since as we know, thinking has no credibility. I also didn't really follow the golden rod/dome camera exercise-- total train wreck for me... huh? And emptiness? more "Oy!"... that just feels like another mountain i have to climb (reminding me of my serious "time on the cushion" meditating days) and also more confirmation of the child's belief that "everyone gets it but me!"... (will try not to give that tired story much credibility!)

"Already here." "Already allowed." "Just this." "Happening on its own." That seems accessible. That triggers relaxation. That points to surrender. "Don't need permission via special experience." Phew. That means nothing's missing. Except seeing "the truth of who i am"... and that's included too.

before i sign off, I feel compelled to add that I'm starting to worry that you're getting no sleep over there (which triggers an image of a haggard australian chap staying up night and day tapping away at his keys in a valiant effort to save these deluded women across the sea from their persistent seeker state and driving his no-self into straight up madness...). will let that one go, but i do hope you're finding some time to catch some zzzzs over there. ;-)

[vinceschubert]

if you would like me to recommit to that agreement

You use your own judgement on this one. If you do come across anything that 'moves' you, just bring it back here.

is this something you can illuminate or would it be more skillful to drop this line of thinking

Yes. Drop it for now. (really happy to discuss it with you post gate)
The thing i changed in the autobiography quoted above was to change "consciousness" to THIS. The reason being that 'consciousness' and 'awareness' are tricky to talk about. As 'things' they beg to be identifies with, whereas THIS is more obviously not a 'thing'.

before i sign off, I feel compelled to add...

Haha !, life-ing here is wonder-full, and you three are all i am 'guiding' at the moment. If when you are 'through', nobody else has materialized in front of me, then i probably won't 'do' anyone else. There is some satisfaction that i have 'payed it forward' enough with those who now SEE.
i must say that you three are a joy in my life and i always look forward to the time with you/me.
i rise about 5-5:30am to spend an hour of two doing this, so no big sacrifice.

love love love us all.

[ixturtle]

A few things rattling around the noggin'...

Finished Linda's string and it sounds like she is through the gate, free and clear. :-) Everyone through confirms the possible, though the mind operating here has trouble imagining that that it could "happen" for this particular "meat sack". But as you say, the mind's goal is to maintain status quo in an effort to "protect" and in any case, the mind gives no evidence for credibility.

Last night there was quite an upset over a very old relationship issue-- i sooooo wanted to not be attached to it anymore, but there arose all the same emotions, which i know are signs of beliefs and stories but they seem so habitual and unconscious and a fundamental part of my conditioning that i simply could not see through them. the only place to go was to sit with the feeling, which was pretty darn painful-- especially because there was a sense that "if i can't see through this, how am i ever going to see through a self". the miracle was that my partner spoke first in a frank yet surprising way and then i unloaded my confused emotions without the story that he's wrong. so rather than a train wreck (which is the way this conversation usually ends), there was a lot of space for us to both be our "selves." issue remains but without so much blaming. this isn't gate crashing-- more like an emergence of some emotional intelligence-- but there is a bit of space that wasn't there before and this process seems part of it.

another front and center piece at the moment was touched on linda when she mentioned "helpfulness is the sunny side of control." this meat sack is a certified control freak (who does an excellent job of masking that fact to most by being smart and nice and helpful and "wise") and its primary mechanism of all this control is THOUGHT. there is a hugely strong and compelling belief that by listening to and SKILLFULLY enacting/articulating thoughts, the universe can be controlled to "my" liking. every so often over the last year i've gone on a "don't believe what you think" kick but then some tantalizing thought comes along and i'm SURE that i've GOT IT now (and the most insidious of those thoughts are how i can "HELP" other people). UGGG! i love the refrigerator hum analogy-- and at the same time it's impossible to imagine operating life that way. except that there's a microscopically growing sense that life operates regardless of the hum-- that the hum that feels like a fog horn is beside the point. i feel like i need to be admitted into rehab-- some 60 day program to get off my thought addiction, to just let it hum and get on with this life-ing.

sigh.
peace.
ix.

ps. i've been reading rose's new posts as well and i keep thinking, i don't quite follow why she's trying to see thoughts turn into stories (which she says goes too fast for her to see). isn't EVERY thought a story (albeit a short one). isn't that enough?

[vinceschubert]

it sounds like she is through the gate, free and clear. :-)

...lookin' good.

though the mind operating here has trouble imagining that that it could "happen" for this particular "meat sack".

some have doubts after the gate and some have them as stepping through happens (you).

but there is a bit of space that wasn't there before

yeah, could almost say that it was unintentional wisdom.

the miracle was that my partner spoke first in a frank yet surprising way

funny how the whole world colludes in this, aye...

the universe can be controlled

Yes, SEEing that any idea of control always was part of the delusion is the precursor to taking the hand off the tiller.

how i can "HELP" other people

Compassion will likely increase, but motivated from a different perspective & along with that increase in emotional intelligence will be more effective.

isn't EVERY thought a story (albeit a short one). isn't that enough?

...ah, very good point. (remind me to give you a pay increase.)

[ixturtle]

Stories floating through, some of the discouraging kind, but mostly they are seen.

Keep thinking of the lao tzu quote, which i'm adjusting slightly: sit quietly doing nothing until action arises by itself-- (i dropped the "right" prior to action because it implies there is a wrong, and for me there seems a need to just let everything be "right"). in any case, good inspiration for "hands off the tiller".

occasionally i am amused by what arises when my hands are (mostly) off, which is nice.

when linda talks about seeing "no one" in her body, i can't relate (of course, how could "i"?). or when she sees the homeless woman and sees "no one". i can see it all as a dance, and i can see the labels and stories i place on top of self, other, experience, but still there is more of an ISness than an emptiness. i want so badly to just look and see it differently (not necessarily linda's way, though in a way that shifts the view entirely), and yet know that i can't make "seeing" happen.

i do feel a subtle letting go of trying so hard (not meaning that i won't show up here).

ok-- that's it for now.
peace to you!
ix

[vinceschubert]

"I don’t mind what happens. That is the essence of inner freedom. It is a timeless spiritual truth: release attachment to outcomes, and—deep inside yourself—you’ll feel good no matter what. ♥"

~Jiddu Krishnamurti

[ixturtle]

A while back you asked me to break apart "this is it", which i don't think i did. So I'll take a crack at it:

THIS is it. what's here is all there is. no smidgeon of "different" experience (including thoughts/views) would make THIS experience any more true or right or better.

this IS it. what's here right now simply IS-- what's happening in the moment, what's arising right now expresses an aliveness, a fluidity, a flow of beingness and there is nothing else, indeed could be nothing else other than what IS.

this is IT. what's here right now is the expression of "enlightenment" i'm seeking; there is nothing else needed. all the searching for IT falls away when IT is seen to be here right now.

just words of course...

[vinceschubert]

just words of course...

Of course. Once we know that words are not IT, and recognise them for the pointers that they are, we can celebrate them as wonderful tools in the process of Connection.
Good seeing in all of the elements of 'this is it'
i hadn't seen the IT as the expression of "enlightenment", so that opened mind here to expansiveness.
This is ALL, might have been a better way of expressing what i had previously had in my story.
Stretch your mind and look beneath it and give me one word that might say the same.

[ixturtle]

give me one word that might say the same.

not that i suppose it matters, but the "the same" as what? "enlightenment?" "all?"

when i ask for one word, what comes first to mind is "here"... and if i let that expand to two words, "already here."

could very much relate to Rose's most recent long post-- and also, while we each will find our own way-- i wonder if all those words actually keep us stuck in the mind. one thing that struck me about linda's string is that she didn't write long dissertations trying to describe or question or figure this out.

a few bits of her string popped out at me-- the quandary of what to do when there's nothing to do... which reminds of her own question for me, what would you do if you knew that you were already there?

my answer to that would be to relax and enjoy. as in Krishnamurti's quote-- release attachment to outcomes, release attachment to SEEing or NOT SEEing. the tricky thing is to do that without "throwing in the towel"... to show up here for the joy of it, to keep asking and looking simply out of love for what's here. stories of linda, rose, vince-- all showing up in the experiencing that is now.

i was also amused by the "must correct the spelling." yes, i have a similar compulsion and at its root is not simply clear and effective communication but a projection of smart, articulate, precise. exhausting really.

[vinceschubert]

The word i had in mind when asking the question was IS or ISing.
Here comes pretty close to that, not that there is a right or wrong answer.

i wonder if all those words actually keep us stuck in the mind.

That resonates. If you apply direct experiencing, then the words just become part of it. Direct Experiencing is also a great way to quieten the mind.
What do you think 'got' Linda through ?

[ixturtle]

What do you think 'got' Linda through ?

from here, what really seemed to shift her was the view that this is "one life"-- in other words, in seeing everything as one life-ing, one IS as you put it-- the small minded story of the self fell away. like taking no credit for the kind of tree she is; it's no longer a "personal" story with an "I" in the middle of it. i am reminded for some reason of Don Miguel Ruiz's "don't take things personally" because it ultimately (in the biggest view) points to no-self.

[vinceschubert]

Ha! i already typed my response to your post. It is my last response to Rose.
Your SEEing is impeccable !
When you say Linda's story fell away, it says it beautifully, even if it's not accurate. The story remains. What actually fell away was the belief in it. But that is conceptual. What actually happened was that there was no longer any responding to the story. (Well, of course there was responding, but it was now to the story and not it's content. In the beginning the responding is recognition (with an associated chuckle) then after a while responding became just a vague noticing coupled with a bored ignoring.)
Let go of responding, Surrender to IS.
Label it the Sweet Spot.
Anchor it to a sensation.
...simply Allow
ALLOW