Guide Available.
Re: Guide Available.
:-D, The process doesn't end. Once seeing, things are never the same, but everything is a dynamic process when seen with clarity. Old habits and the ego try to sneak back sometimes, but that is just the human condition isn't it. :-) There could be cycles perhaps, but no ending. Plus the arising of compassion makes it even more beautiful. I think you are ready for the final questions. May I post them for you. Namaste, Metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Guide Available.
Thank You Metta
With a sense of nervousness - empty of course - please do.
All the very best
Rob
With a sense of nervousness - empty of course - please do.
All the very best
Rob
Re: Guide Available.
There is no pass or fail and you are doing great.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
Please answer in detail and as openly as you have been. It has been a pleasure working with you. Namaste, Metta
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
Please answer in detail and as openly as you have been. It has been a pleasure working with you. Namaste, Metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Guide Available.
Thank you Metta for your guidance, kindness and encouragement. Likewise it has been a great pleasure undertaking this journey with you.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No and no. There are merely conditioned arisings which in my ignorance and delusion I have taken to be a me. I am now seeing more clearly the process whereby that happens and feeling more clearly the qualitive difference between the arising of an emotion or a thought ascribed to and effecting a substantial self and just the pure arising…which is still experienced but not held onto. So for example I may still experience shame and that is acknowledged as shame and is experienced as painful but then it is let go of…rather than it turning into a whole story about “me” and how “I have always had this failing and I wish it wasn’t so and how am I going to stop doing those things in future but I have said that in the past and they still happen and oh I feel hopeless”. The arising is experienced and then it whizzes through…cleanly.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
I may have touched on this in my answer above. The illusion of a separate self is brought about firstly by being conditioned into the idea at an early age….3,4, 5… I was told: “you are like this; you are called Rob; you are a good boy; you are a gentle boy; you are an emotional boy who cries a lot; you are a mummy’s boy; you are good at playing football but you are not very good at Maths, when you grow up you could do this…”etc etc..
So I grow up assuming there is a me…because I have been told this by adults, by my parents and they know don’t they? So I go into adult life and never really question it….and as a teenager I experience particular emotions…and I begin to make my own deductions from those I experience habitually… “ I am insecure, I am unintelligent, I am hopeless, I am weak, I am too sensitive, I am not robust enough, I am a failure etc etc….all taken on as part of a substantial identity
If I am lucky I may get to question these assumptions, challenge them and replace them with some healthier self views (though these don’t always stick as the more ingrained beliefs are difficult to dislodge).
If I am really lucky I may embark on some kind of spiritual practice..meditation…and I may be invited to look into my experience to see the difference between a physical sensation and mental sensations. I may see that physical sensations, thoughts and emotions arise and pass…I may then notice that there is not just one self…but a multiplicity of selves. There is a control booth in my brain and all these selves are competing to leap into the booth to assume control. This makes me realize “there is no fixed Self”…but there are still this multiplicity of selves and they are me and what they say and the implications for them of arisings that happen have to be taken pretty seriously.
Then I see that this multiplicity of selves are each merely thoughts arising in a moment…there is no substance to them…they are thoughts arising in dependence upon conditions…but I still deduce there is a “me” at the centre of this…watching everything that is happening…and that is the real “me”..that which watches and knows. And hence these sensations, thoughts and emotions are still “happening to me”….hence they are serious and have implications which need to be thought through.
Then the imputation of an “I” a “me” onto this knowing is recognized as yet another thought. Even the imputation of any label “Awareness” “Buddha Nature” is seen as just that…an attempt to conceptualize and fix and categorise that which is beyond conceptualization. There is just empty cognizance …there is knowing but no knower. Even the term “empty cognizance” is a label.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
It is freeing. In one of his Suttas, about the the 5 aggregates, the Buddha talks about the laying down of “the burden.” That is what it is beginning to feel like in this last day or so. It is like there has been this automatic process which has operated to make life difficult, heavy, stodgy, painful, problematic..etc etc and then through this seeing I recognize that it has all been unnecessary. By imputing an “I” in every experience they became a problem to be solved. With dropping of the “I” the arising of physical and mental phenomena are still experienced but they pass..they are not hung onto, collected, thought about, worried over.
And applying this realisation other people ..this is the big thing… “I”…am only just beginning to see the implications of all beings having no separate self….this is work in progress.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
I would suggest that the idea of self has been brought into being by an assumption which has been taken as a given but never tested in experience.If it were tested in experience it would be found to be not so, a mere fabrication. It is taken as “real” because everyone assumes it is. Furthermore there are other assumptions that are associated with it such as “if there were no self I would not exist” “if I found there was no self I would disappear.” “..if there were no self there would be no proper functioning.”..”if there were no self there would be no control.” (there is no control…just a stream of conditioned arisings) etc etc
I would explain that actually, somewhat counter intuitively, the dropping of the erroneous view of self is not some kind of negation leading to nothing but actually leads to an expansive freedom. That so much energy is expended in seeking to identify with and appropriate experience in a desperate attempt to prop up a sense of self. It is like trying to dam a free flowing river with inadequate materials…..blockages can be made to the river but sooner or later the river will break through these and the whole tiring and painful business of trying to build a dam has to start again….with the disconcerting thought, largely unconscious, that this cannot succeed. …but easier to stick with what one knows (i.e dam building) rather than just sit honestly with one’s experience. Stop building the dam.
I would suggest that as one’s sense of self diminishes so one’s sense of being increases…no longer bound and restrained by the vortex of the delusions of “me”, “mine” and “I”
I would stress that it is a delusion to be seen through not a “thing” to be got rid of. That self is merely a habit of mind and perception and that these habits can be seen for what they are through a careful process of investigation.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
It has been happening gradually over the last 5 years and this has accelerated with the use of vipassana meditation on retreat in the last 15 months. Initially (5years ago) there was insight that there wasn’t just one self but multiple selves…this was followed by a moment of Insight that there was no Self. However, it was rather like the movie Terminator 2 when the terminator got blown to pieces but the bits of liquid metal rolled together and he was very quickly re-formed (apologies if you haven’t seen the movie) The insight had happened but all the old ways and sense of identity were back….Followed by more retreats…more moments of insight.
Then 15 months ago I did a 3 week solitary. No self again seen but in a much more sustained way. However, on return to everyday life,disappointingly, old habits remained particularly in the form of identification with thoughts and emotions …though noticed the narrative of my life had significantly reduced.
This last summer repeated the experience. Again long and sustained insights into not Self.…Though interestingly in study I always referred to it as “no fixed Self”…which leaves the door open for a changing Self (even though this is a contradiction in terms it leaves open the possibility for the deluded mind to hang onto) Even seeing all experience as “not I”, “not mine”… “not Self” leaves the door open that something somewhere might conceivably be. In hearing about LU and the take on “not Self”… -“There is no self at all. It's not that there is no-self, it's no self as in zero.”…I experienced that as an emotional jolt…which indicated to me that there was holding on to the notion of Self at some level.
The reflections you have kindly led me through have brought to the surface more clearly what I saw in the Insight meditation. They have also carried me further beyond the delusion. An image came to me this morning in meditation. It was like the Insight meditation blew a great big hole in the illusion such that it is beyond repair. (maybe the metaphor of the dam is appropriate here) However, fragements of the illusion were left hanging and there were still enough of them to catch experiences and enable them to be interpreted in terms of “I” even though I knew this couldn’t be so…which was confusing. I would liken the work we have done here as being going in a clearing away the fragments of the broken dam. We have been scouring away and tidying up the site so that the river of conditions can flow more freely.
Not sudden like some great big illumination…but more like the ongoing setting up of conditions whereby the illusion can no longer be sustained as the level of seeing gradually increases. That unfolding process continues. Being directed to see behind arisings to see what was there was incredibly helpful. Just an amazingly useful piece of practical advice.
Thank you so much for your time and help.
Rob
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No and no. There are merely conditioned arisings which in my ignorance and delusion I have taken to be a me. I am now seeing more clearly the process whereby that happens and feeling more clearly the qualitive difference between the arising of an emotion or a thought ascribed to and effecting a substantial self and just the pure arising…which is still experienced but not held onto. So for example I may still experience shame and that is acknowledged as shame and is experienced as painful but then it is let go of…rather than it turning into a whole story about “me” and how “I have always had this failing and I wish it wasn’t so and how am I going to stop doing those things in future but I have said that in the past and they still happen and oh I feel hopeless”. The arising is experienced and then it whizzes through…cleanly.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
I may have touched on this in my answer above. The illusion of a separate self is brought about firstly by being conditioned into the idea at an early age….3,4, 5… I was told: “you are like this; you are called Rob; you are a good boy; you are a gentle boy; you are an emotional boy who cries a lot; you are a mummy’s boy; you are good at playing football but you are not very good at Maths, when you grow up you could do this…”etc etc..
So I grow up assuming there is a me…because I have been told this by adults, by my parents and they know don’t they? So I go into adult life and never really question it….and as a teenager I experience particular emotions…and I begin to make my own deductions from those I experience habitually… “ I am insecure, I am unintelligent, I am hopeless, I am weak, I am too sensitive, I am not robust enough, I am a failure etc etc….all taken on as part of a substantial identity
If I am lucky I may get to question these assumptions, challenge them and replace them with some healthier self views (though these don’t always stick as the more ingrained beliefs are difficult to dislodge).
If I am really lucky I may embark on some kind of spiritual practice..meditation…and I may be invited to look into my experience to see the difference between a physical sensation and mental sensations. I may see that physical sensations, thoughts and emotions arise and pass…I may then notice that there is not just one self…but a multiplicity of selves. There is a control booth in my brain and all these selves are competing to leap into the booth to assume control. This makes me realize “there is no fixed Self”…but there are still this multiplicity of selves and they are me and what they say and the implications for them of arisings that happen have to be taken pretty seriously.
Then I see that this multiplicity of selves are each merely thoughts arising in a moment…there is no substance to them…they are thoughts arising in dependence upon conditions…but I still deduce there is a “me” at the centre of this…watching everything that is happening…and that is the real “me”..that which watches and knows. And hence these sensations, thoughts and emotions are still “happening to me”….hence they are serious and have implications which need to be thought through.
Then the imputation of an “I” a “me” onto this knowing is recognized as yet another thought. Even the imputation of any label “Awareness” “Buddha Nature” is seen as just that…an attempt to conceptualize and fix and categorise that which is beyond conceptualization. There is just empty cognizance …there is knowing but no knower. Even the term “empty cognizance” is a label.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
It is freeing. In one of his Suttas, about the the 5 aggregates, the Buddha talks about the laying down of “the burden.” That is what it is beginning to feel like in this last day or so. It is like there has been this automatic process which has operated to make life difficult, heavy, stodgy, painful, problematic..etc etc and then through this seeing I recognize that it has all been unnecessary. By imputing an “I” in every experience they became a problem to be solved. With dropping of the “I” the arising of physical and mental phenomena are still experienced but they pass..they are not hung onto, collected, thought about, worried over.
And applying this realisation other people ..this is the big thing… “I”…am only just beginning to see the implications of all beings having no separate self….this is work in progress.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
I would suggest that the idea of self has been brought into being by an assumption which has been taken as a given but never tested in experience.If it were tested in experience it would be found to be not so, a mere fabrication. It is taken as “real” because everyone assumes it is. Furthermore there are other assumptions that are associated with it such as “if there were no self I would not exist” “if I found there was no self I would disappear.” “..if there were no self there would be no proper functioning.”..”if there were no self there would be no control.” (there is no control…just a stream of conditioned arisings) etc etc
I would explain that actually, somewhat counter intuitively, the dropping of the erroneous view of self is not some kind of negation leading to nothing but actually leads to an expansive freedom. That so much energy is expended in seeking to identify with and appropriate experience in a desperate attempt to prop up a sense of self. It is like trying to dam a free flowing river with inadequate materials…..blockages can be made to the river but sooner or later the river will break through these and the whole tiring and painful business of trying to build a dam has to start again….with the disconcerting thought, largely unconscious, that this cannot succeed. …but easier to stick with what one knows (i.e dam building) rather than just sit honestly with one’s experience. Stop building the dam.
I would suggest that as one’s sense of self diminishes so one’s sense of being increases…no longer bound and restrained by the vortex of the delusions of “me”, “mine” and “I”
I would stress that it is a delusion to be seen through not a “thing” to be got rid of. That self is merely a habit of mind and perception and that these habits can be seen for what they are through a careful process of investigation.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
It has been happening gradually over the last 5 years and this has accelerated with the use of vipassana meditation on retreat in the last 15 months. Initially (5years ago) there was insight that there wasn’t just one self but multiple selves…this was followed by a moment of Insight that there was no Self. However, it was rather like the movie Terminator 2 when the terminator got blown to pieces but the bits of liquid metal rolled together and he was very quickly re-formed (apologies if you haven’t seen the movie) The insight had happened but all the old ways and sense of identity were back….Followed by more retreats…more moments of insight.
Then 15 months ago I did a 3 week solitary. No self again seen but in a much more sustained way. However, on return to everyday life,disappointingly, old habits remained particularly in the form of identification with thoughts and emotions …though noticed the narrative of my life had significantly reduced.
This last summer repeated the experience. Again long and sustained insights into not Self.…Though interestingly in study I always referred to it as “no fixed Self”…which leaves the door open for a changing Self (even though this is a contradiction in terms it leaves open the possibility for the deluded mind to hang onto) Even seeing all experience as “not I”, “not mine”… “not Self” leaves the door open that something somewhere might conceivably be. In hearing about LU and the take on “not Self”… -“There is no self at all. It's not that there is no-self, it's no self as in zero.”…I experienced that as an emotional jolt…which indicated to me that there was holding on to the notion of Self at some level.
The reflections you have kindly led me through have brought to the surface more clearly what I saw in the Insight meditation. They have also carried me further beyond the delusion. An image came to me this morning in meditation. It was like the Insight meditation blew a great big hole in the illusion such that it is beyond repair. (maybe the metaphor of the dam is appropriate here) However, fragements of the illusion were left hanging and there were still enough of them to catch experiences and enable them to be interpreted in terms of “I” even though I knew this couldn’t be so…which was confusing. I would liken the work we have done here as being going in a clearing away the fragments of the broken dam. We have been scouring away and tidying up the site so that the river of conditions can flow more freely.
Not sudden like some great big illumination…but more like the ongoing setting up of conditions whereby the illusion can no longer be sustained as the level of seeing gradually increases. That unfolding process continues. Being directed to see behind arisings to see what was there was incredibly helpful. Just an amazingly useful piece of practical advice.
Thank you so much for your time and help.
Rob
Re: Guide Available.
Hi Rob, I will present your answers and get back to you, sometimes another guide may have a question or concern. Your very welcome, Metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Guide Available.
Hi Rob, Another guide has a question for you on number one, What sees the process? It doesn't have to be a long explanation.
"This too shall pass"
Re: Guide Available.
Thanks METTA
To answer the question
It is awareness that sees the process. Awareness that is empty but cognizant and not a “thing” in itself. It is awareness without any “self” reference whatsoever. Any self reference is indicative that a thought is now present and being identified with.
I hope this is helpful.
All best
Rob
To answer the question
It is awareness that sees the process. Awareness that is empty but cognizant and not a “thing” in itself. It is awareness without any “self” reference whatsoever. Any self reference is indicative that a thought is now present and being identified with.
I hope this is helpful.
All best
Rob
Re: Guide Available.
Is this 'awareness' separate from what is seen?
is there an 'awareness' that is aware of sound?
is there an 'awareness' that is aware of sensation?
LOOK Deeply, and write from direct experience. Thanks ,Rob
is there an 'awareness' that is aware of sound?
is there an 'awareness' that is aware of sensation?
LOOK Deeply, and write from direct experience. Thanks ,Rob
"This too shall pass"
Re: Guide Available.
Thank you Metta
I shall reflect on those and come back to you.
I shall reflect on those and come back to you.
Re: Guide Available.
Thank you Metta.
“Is this 'awareness' separate from what is seen?”
No there is just the seen
“Is there an 'awareness' that is aware of sound?”
No there is just sound
“Is there an 'awareness' that is aware of sensation?”
No there is just what is sensed.
This is the direct experience…but I am aware we have just done the exercise that the Buddha set for Bahir of the bark garment.
If I close my eyes and listen to the sound of my computer. There is just the flow of that sound and nothing else. The discursive mind keeps wanting to jump in and suggest that if there is a sound then it follows that there is an awareness of the sound….but this is just an idea. The experience is…close my eyes again…just the flow of sound.
In Early Buddhism the theory is that for a sound to be heard there has to be the appropriate sound vibration, the relevant sense organ (the ear) and the relevant consciousness (ear consciousness arising together with mind consciousness). But this is just a conceptual idea isn’t it? The actual experience is just sound with no separation or distinction between “that” which is emitting the sound and “that” which is hearing the sound. There is no duality.
I have had these experiences fairly regularly on retreats…and the phrase that comes up with a laugh and a shake of the head is “just this”….all, everything is “just this.” To attempt further description breaks the experience back into dualities again.
The questions have been helpful in pointing towards the possible danger of reifying “awareness”. They are ones I will continue to pose when I sit. Thank you so much.
“Is this 'awareness' separate from what is seen?”
No there is just the seen
“Is there an 'awareness' that is aware of sound?”
No there is just sound
“Is there an 'awareness' that is aware of sensation?”
No there is just what is sensed.
This is the direct experience…but I am aware we have just done the exercise that the Buddha set for Bahir of the bark garment.
If I close my eyes and listen to the sound of my computer. There is just the flow of that sound and nothing else. The discursive mind keeps wanting to jump in and suggest that if there is a sound then it follows that there is an awareness of the sound….but this is just an idea. The experience is…close my eyes again…just the flow of sound.
In Early Buddhism the theory is that for a sound to be heard there has to be the appropriate sound vibration, the relevant sense organ (the ear) and the relevant consciousness (ear consciousness arising together with mind consciousness). But this is just a conceptual idea isn’t it? The actual experience is just sound with no separation or distinction between “that” which is emitting the sound and “that” which is hearing the sound. There is no duality.
I have had these experiences fairly regularly on retreats…and the phrase that comes up with a laugh and a shake of the head is “just this”….all, everything is “just this.” To attempt further description breaks the experience back into dualities again.
The questions have been helpful in pointing towards the possible danger of reifying “awareness”. They are ones I will continue to pose when I sit. Thank you so much.
Re: Guide Available.
Do you have an expectation that suffering should cease or that thoughts should stop arising about it even after seeing there is no self and if there is fear about conditioning does conditioning have any power of its own? Thanks, just clarifying if you have any doubts at all. Metta
"This too shall pass"
Re: Guide Available.
Thank you once again for your kind engagement with me.
“Do you have an expectation that suffering should cease?”
There will still be dukkha that goes with having a body….and to the extent that there is slippage into identification or appropriation of experience there will be dukkha. However I am already experiencing a reduction in the level of identification with thoughts and emotions and consequently there is a reduction of dukkha. It follows that the more deeply and continuously there is seeing of no Self there will be a consequent reduction of dukkha caused by the illusion of self. This is not an expectation but is beginning to happen in experience. I am also aware that these things are not completely straightforward and there will be days where the self illusion may assert itself for a while until awareness and new perspectives are recalled.
“… or that thoughts should stop arising about it even after seeing there is no self?”
Thoughts will always arise and the content may be about the nature of dukkha or where I am going to go on holiday but the point is that thoughts have no substance…as I have discovered there is nothing behind them. Remembering there is nothing behind them is the key to not being in their thrall. Thought s will arise but it is the relationship to thoughts which will change as the Insights into no self deepen.
“ and if there is fear about conditioning does conditioning have any power of its own?”
Fear about conditioning is receding. Conditioning is a set of false beliefs and assumptions which operate through thoughts. As discussed above thought are empty of substance with nothing behind them and hence have no power so long as they are not believed and identified with.
Thanks, just clarifying if you have any doubts at all.
I have no doubts at all about the veracity of what you have been pointing me towards…and my experience this week leads me to believe that the Insight has now gone sufficiently deep for the necessary perceptual shift to continue on an ongoing basis. However…what is the future?...I can only stay open to what arises in each moment.
Sorry I am a little tired I have been down in London all day. If you need any clarification please say.
All best
Rob"
“Do you have an expectation that suffering should cease?”
There will still be dukkha that goes with having a body….and to the extent that there is slippage into identification or appropriation of experience there will be dukkha. However I am already experiencing a reduction in the level of identification with thoughts and emotions and consequently there is a reduction of dukkha. It follows that the more deeply and continuously there is seeing of no Self there will be a consequent reduction of dukkha caused by the illusion of self. This is not an expectation but is beginning to happen in experience. I am also aware that these things are not completely straightforward and there will be days where the self illusion may assert itself for a while until awareness and new perspectives are recalled.
“… or that thoughts should stop arising about it even after seeing there is no self?”
Thoughts will always arise and the content may be about the nature of dukkha or where I am going to go on holiday but the point is that thoughts have no substance…as I have discovered there is nothing behind them. Remembering there is nothing behind them is the key to not being in their thrall. Thought s will arise but it is the relationship to thoughts which will change as the Insights into no self deepen.
“ and if there is fear about conditioning does conditioning have any power of its own?”
Fear about conditioning is receding. Conditioning is a set of false beliefs and assumptions which operate through thoughts. As discussed above thought are empty of substance with nothing behind them and hence have no power so long as they are not believed and identified with.
Thanks, just clarifying if you have any doubts at all.
I have no doubts at all about the veracity of what you have been pointing me towards…and my experience this week leads me to believe that the Insight has now gone sufficiently deep for the necessary perceptual shift to continue on an ongoing basis. However…what is the future?...I can only stay open to what arises in each moment.
Sorry I am a little tired I have been down in London all day. If you need any clarification please say.
All best
Rob"
Re: Guide Available.
Rest up if you have a need to please. It is not my veracity that I think you are questioning, though thank you. Where is the slippage, once seen as no self, where is suffering? Who is suffering? Fear of conditioning is receding but not gone. Try to simplify. There is no future, there is only projected conditioning of what thoughts arise about possibilities. There is no past, as long as there is, there is a self. The past cannot be revisited or changed in anyway. You can't imagine a thought before it arises or change a thought once it has been thought. This is, there is no more. No future, no past, only now. I am not saying that the electro chemical process in your brain that contains memories is not there, or that it might be useful in some respects. But the direct experience does not exist. Please do and in depth search for the identity of the person who is suffering. Let me know if you find such a person or identity exists anywhere. Thanks, Rob
"This too shall pass"
Re: Guide Available.
Thank you Metta
I shall consider those points and come back to you.
All the best
Rob
I shall consider those points and come back to you.
All the best
Rob
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